Is 6e worth buying if my last Fantasy Hero was 1e?

[Christopher R Taylor]

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What is it?  Well, the monster gets three attacks.

 

HERO can't do that.

 

 

Combined attack, you build the monster with a claw and a bite attack; it can attack with either claw and bite.  Granted that wasn't clear in the earlier editions, but this is part of the "there are too many rules complexity!" bit you talk about with 6th: to let you do that.

[Duke Bushido]

How many targets can you split your combined attack across?

 

And I do not talk,about rules complexity.  I _do_ talk about _build_ complexity, but that is not the same thing.

 

I talk about rules excess, rules redundancy, and rule conflict- most of which arise from the rules excess and the options upon options that lead to... Eh.  It escapes me right now, but I believe the vernacular is "analysis paralysis" as far as what is right for you and your game.

 

The rules are no more complicated than they have ever been; I have never claimed them to be.  The fact that there are more than ten times as many pages of them as there once where, and the gains from that are meager compared to the confusion and market disinterest that isn't diminished by that- that is something I discuss a lot.

 

I dont mind snarky comments directed at me, mostly because, havinf sworn off sarcasm years ago, I don't pick up on most of them, bur they work better when they are accurate.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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The rules are no more complicated than they have ever been; I have never claimed them to be.  The fact that there are more than ten times as many pages of them as there once where, and the gains from that are meager compared to the confusion and market disinterest that isn't diminished by that- that is something I discuss a lot.

 

Sorry I used the wrong term, this is what I meant; this kind of thing is why there are more pages.  Because more options and broader uses are explained.  I agree its a bit much but now you have specifically how you do certain things that were implied or assumed in the past.

 

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I dont mind snarky comments directed at me

 

I apologize if that came across as snarky, it was not meant to. I was trying to address a commonly stated concern and show how its not as much a problem as it might seem.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I apologize if that came across as snarky, it was not meant to.

 

 

I believe you; no problem.  For what it is worth, I have 12 siblings.  I dont have any feelings left to step on. 

 

Getting back in track:

 

That was the whole point of my post:  you can do X or Y or Z in HERO: all you have to do is add yet another thing- perhaps A and B to yield X, C and D and a sprinkle of E to yield Y, and maybe F by itself straight up gives you Z.

 

You don't actually need formal,HER-approved rules for that, but you have them.  Add, add, and add some more.  There are still rhinga HERO has no official rules for- and yes: you can model things like Traveller's Damage System by changing all damage in the game from EB or KA to Drain: Random Physical Characteristic, etc.

 

But how many things do you have to add to make it feel simple and clean?

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't really know how to answer that, given that you just were saying Hero could not do something, and a rule was clarified showing that you could.  I mean is that more or less complicated, or useful?  Is AD&D lacking clean simplicity because it has 100 different systems to do each thing?

[Khymeria]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I don't really know how to answer that, given that you just were saying Hero could not do something, and a rule was clarified showing that you could.  I mean is that more or less complicated, or useful?  Is AD&D lacking clean simplicity because it has 100 different systems to do each thing?

Once you spend a little intellectual investment time with Hero System, the learning is over. You have unlocked the formula. D&D has no formula, every spell has a different set of stats and then text, which has to be interpreted. Every spell, with constant added crunch. Same for Pathfinder 1E. There is so much memorizing, but my brain doesn't want to do that like it used to, so even though I contributed to several WotC 5E D&D products, I play Hero System 6E Fantasy with my regular group.

[Scott Ruggels]

 When I started, first with the Fantasy Hero Playtest rules, and then with 1st edition FH< all magic was homebrew. Later on I gave the players guidance with sets of culturally specific Advantages and Limitations, to make magic from different lands work differently.  At the time, everyone was so sick of AD&D and its class systems, that characters were Mystic knights, or Arcane swordsmen types, or magical thieves, or Holy men with huge area of effect spells.   But as to Genre enforcement, I wasn't going to do much of that, especially when some armies had early firearms and explosives, and Dragons used the intelligence the creators granted them, Mages had spells that created black powder, which made it cheap and plentiful. hence the Pike & Shot armies. So it did not resemble anything Tolkien or D&D for that matter. It was it's own thing, but that was how the rest of us Did Fantasy back then. Pete emulated some certain books. I emulated none, but ran with a few ideas, and Bob ran an early Iron Age fantasy, like just out of the Classical period. Another GM used Ars Magica as background and philosophy, but the bones of his campaign were pure FH. I could still run that campaign today if I could find the misplaced notes, but currently I am running a No Magic campaign, taking place in a late classical period, for an appreciative group, and the rules are still 1st 3edition FH, with some simplification.

[Doc Democracy]

16 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

But how many things do you have to add to make it feel simple and clean?

 

 

Oh Duke, you come so close, sometimes to my fantasy HERO system, which is probably the other side of the spectrum to yours! 

 

I think there are a few things that could be added and a chunk of stuff taken away.  What you dislike so much is often the complexity people like putting in and the volume of chat around adding that complexity.

 

You like to eyeball stuff.  You grok the system so deeply that you are happy handwaving a bunch of stuff because you KNOW it will work and trust the underlying system to function in that way.

 

Problem is that where you see simplicity, other folk, especially new GMs see vague.

 

They want the detail and when you start looking close at the simulation, it has holes, and so they fill the holes with detail.

 

I think the biggest holes are partly due to the systems infrastructure.  Personally I see some characteristics as black boxes that skew the skills and powers of the game (others are just counters - like STUN, END, and BODY - or guages - like CV).

 

Now, I don't think my system would sell outside the nerd HERO ecosystem.  Designers might use it and teenage boys with endless free-time.  what would sell is clear gameable material.

 

It doesn't matter if DEX is there as characteristic, when I know it is essentially skill levels with all dexterity related skills.  or if STR is there as a number when I know it is skill levels with STR related skills, bonus HtH damage, a gauge of how much mass can be lifted, and bonus leaping.  People expect these numbers because we have been programmed to expect them in our games, not to be able to manipulate them at will.

 

So.  To the "expert" eye and to the newbie, build complexity is detrimental to play.  Some expert GMs know where things are and can confidently tell their players what to roll, how many dice that would be etc. without needing the complexity on display. The newbie player trusts that GM and the in-game results are consistent enough that the trust grows.

 

Other GMs expertise gets expressed in them explicitly nailing down the system for their players, either because they need to "see" the detail to judge it or because their players ask so many questions it needs to be upfront.  This is most likely the position in groups where there has not been a guru style person running games, demonstrating the game play rather than the system detail.

 

My experience is that HERO has heard much more from the second group, not least because it is the one that needs more help with the system.  it has catered to that group by providing the intelligence (system detail) asked for rather than the wisdom (how to run good games with HERO advice) that was needed.

 

I actually think the ICE books (like Robin Hood and Mythic Greece) were what the system needed, and still needs.  Delivering gameable experiences out the box with an underlying unified system that guru GMs could tweak, if desired.

 

Doc (channelling Duke style diatribes early in the morning)

Edited April 6, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[Duke Bushido]

Funny you mention those dual-stat books; I was just thumbing through Robin Hood last night.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Old Man]

52 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Funny you mention those dual-stat books; I was just thumbinf through Robin Hood last night.

 

This one is easily my favorite FH supplement.  One of the best low fantasy RPG books ever printed.

[Doc Democracy]

Anyone ever tried playing with both systems?  Any significant differences??

[Old Man]

57 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Anyone ever tried playing with both systems?  Any significant differences??

 

Never actually played 6e, I saw the 6e weapon chart and was too enraged to continue reading.

 

Obviously 6e has done away with figured characteristics, and the weapon chart is... different.  FH 1e also had tweaks to the powers that made them fit into fantasy a little better--one example is Flight, which in FH 1e is Levitation and causes users to be half DCV.  The cost structure for powers in FH 1e is often different.  Flash is 10/d6, I think Drain was 10/d6, Shield (aka FF) was 5/2, Healing was 10/d6 (and better defined), and so on.  And I'm pretty sure 1e had no power frameworks either. 

 

It was expensive to be a caster, but limitations also were worth more--incantations and gestures were -1 and foci were at least -1/2.  Ultimately this forced casters to pile as many limitations on spells as they could, which went a long way toward making it feel like fantasy as opposed to medieval supers.

[Doc Democracy]

14 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Never actually played 6e, I saw the 6e weapon chart and was too enraged to continue reading.

 

Oh my!  I KNEW I should quoted!!!  I meant, for example, Robin Hood with both HERO and Rolemaster.

 

😄 😀😄😀🤣🤣🤣

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I meant, for example, Robin Hood with both HERO and Rolemaster.

 

I have, and Rolemaster is interesting and pretty easy to play, but isn't a great system.  Terrific support though, amazing LOTR stuff

[Doc Democracy]

3 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I have, and Rolemaster is interesting and pretty easy to play, but isn't a great system.  Terrific support though, amazing LOTR stuff

 

Did you play the Robin Hood (or any other of the ICE settings) utilising both systems?

 

I genuinely thought I was better at expressing myself!  I have played both 1E and 6E Fantasy HERO and I have played Rolemaster.

 

Never played any of the settings using either system... 

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Oh my!  I KNEW I should quoted!!!  I meant, for example, Robin Hood with both HERO and Rolemaster.

 

😄 😀😄😀🤣🤣🤣

 

Lol my bad.  Sadly I've never attempted to play the same adventure using both FH and MERP, which is kind of strange considering how much Shadow World stuff I possess on top of the full set of Campaign Classics.  (Or maybe not that strange because RM sucks compared to Hero.)  From the one MERP campaign, I do remember that it was exceedingly lethal, it just didn't feel that way because combat took so long to resolve.  And magic in MERP/RM was really limited and weird.

[assault]

Just for fun: 1e included conversion notes for MERP and Runequest (3rd edition). The RQ conversion was written by Steve Perrin, naturally.

So... FH Glorantha anyone?

In theory the notes could also be used to convert other games as well. 4e FH had conversion notes for Rolemaster, GURPS and AD&D.

I could see myself using a Runequest inspired Spirit Magic system alongside a Sorcery system for upper class, literate ("civilised") Wizards.

[Doc Democracy]

11 minutes ago, assault said:

I could see myself using a Runequest inspired Spirit Magic system alongside a Sorcery system for upper class, literate ("civilised") Wizards.

 

Absolutely.  Magic is a key problem for Runequest.  Battle Magic and Rune Magic are pretty good in the system but sorcery just doesn't fit.  I reckon HERO would be a better Glorantha fit and, given the various systems used recently, Chaosium would be open to  Glorantha HERO book, if they were approached.