Homebrewing a HERO System 2e

[Joe Walsh]

As mentioned in this thread, I decided to try going back to the earliest non-Champions HERO System game, Espionage!, and work from there to find something that will work for how my group uses HERO System and which is easier for newbies to learn.

 

To avoid derailing that Champions 3e thread, I'll post updates here for those interested.

 

I'm just at the start of the process, but here's a basic overview of my plan so far:

1. Get Espionage! into a usable text format, with a stopover at the complete text which I plan to send to Jason in case he ever has a use for it.
2. Remove the flavor text, CIA info, and such that's specific to the spy genre, leaving behind a more generic RPG. (Espionage was clearly meant to be a generic modern heroic RPG that defaults to espionage, so that won't be too hard.)
3. Determine what (if anything) needs to be added from contemporary HERO publications.
4. Determine what (if anything) needs to be added from 3e publications.
5. Determine what (if anything) needs to be added from later HERO publications.
6. Integrate everything, editing and/or rewriting as needed.
7. Add any illustrations that may be needed (grenade scatter diagram, etc.)
8. Playtest.

 

My goal is to end up with a complete but minimalist RPG along the lines of Classic Traveller, B/X D&D, etc. I'll share my journey here for those interested.

 

(For those not interested, I'm sorry for cluttering up the board. This seemed the best place to put this.)

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by GM Joe

[Joe Walsh]

Progress as of today:

 

- Full text dumped from the official PDF to a text file.

- Full text (less tables, images, etc.) has been given one pass to fix the many, many OCR errors ("L" substituted for "1" and vice-versa, bits of text moved around randomly on pages with tables or images, random spaces and garbage characters inserted or substituted, etc.).

- All the tables from the first 26 pages of the original book have been recreated in semicolon-delimited format so they can be turned into tables as desired (most word processors can go from this format to tables with a couple of mouse clicks).

- Made a few random notes for later, such as that the final paragraph under the Languages skill should list Arabic, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, and Korean as the more difficult-to-learn languages (per multiple sources, including Rosetta Stone).

- I'm sort of dreading recreating the table on page 34, but I did choose this task after all!

 

Lots to go, but that's where I am on this right now. My free time is limited, but I'm hoping to make more progress next week.

Edited April 14, 2023 by GM Joe

[Joe Walsh]

I'm trying to keep in mind what support was around for Espionage! at the time, what Champions was doing at the time, and the progression of the HERO System throughout the 1e to 3e era. Here's what I've put together after going through my HERO library last weekend (note that I'm not trying to include every HERO publication here; just everything related to Espionage! and then the key products for the rest of the HERO System):

 

Key Publication Dates:
    - Daisy wheel layout era begins
    - Saddle-stitched core rules era begins

 

    Champions 1e: July 1981 (San Mateo, CA Origins Game Fair)
    Island of Dr. Destroyer: 1981 (This and the following three were produced because game distributors wouldn't take Hero Games seriously until they had more products.)
    Escape from Stronghold: 1981
    Enemies: 1981
    Champions GM Screen: 1981
    
    - Boxed game era begins (game distributors upped the ante and required core games to come in boxes)

    - 2e era begins

 

    Champions 2e: 1982
    Champions II: 1982
    Espionage: 1983
    Border Crossing (Espionage! and MSPE): 1983
    Adventurers Club #1: Fall 1983 (Covert Action column by Steve Peterson w/ Police Academy Package Deals)
    Adventurers Club #2: Winter 1983 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ advice, archetypes, surveillance skill, and a Military Package Deal)
    
    The Armory, Volume 1 (Firebird for Espionage! and MSPE): 1983
    The Adventure of the Jade Jaguar (Blade for MSPE and Espionage!) April 1983
    Stormhaven (Blade for MSPE and Espionage!): November 1983
    

    - 2e era ends

    - Daisy wheel layout era ends
    - Professional layout and typesetting era begins

    - 3e era begins

 

    Justice, Inc (Espionage! rules re-themed to pulp, with a couple of new Skills and separate Skills for different forms of transportation; Psychic Powers; Weird Talents; Monsters; Wild Animals): May 1984
    Champions III: 1984
    Adventurers Club #3: Spring 1984 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ advice, Reffing the Disadvantages 1, Private Investigator Package Deal)
    Adventurers Club #4: Summer 1984 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ mission security, Reffing the Disadvantages 2, rules for non-combat movement, END and weapons, lifting).
 
    Champions 3e: November 1984
    Adventurers Club #5: Fall 1984 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ how to infiltrate, Reffing the Disadvantages 3)
    Adventurers Club #6: Winter 1984 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ performing illegal acts, Reffing the Disadvantages 4)
    
    Lands of Mystery: May 1985

 

    -Saddle-stitched core rules era ends
    -Boxed rulebook era ends

 

    Fantasy Hero: June 1985
    Danger International: November 1985
    
    -ICE 10-year Contract Begins January 1986

 

    Here There Be Tigers (Firebird for Danger International and Espionage!): 1986
    
    Adventurers Club #7: Summer 1986 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett; post-Danger International publication; covers obtaining equipment)
    Champions 3e (Perfect-Bound): August 1986
    Super Agents: August 1986
    Robot Warriors: October 1986
    Adventurers Club #8: Fall 1986
    Adventurers Club #9: Spring 1987 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett provides his thoughts on Package Deals from a Danger International perspective)
    Adventurers Club #10: Summer 1987
    Adventurers Club #11: Fall 1987
    Adventurers Club #12: 1988
    Adventurers Club #13: 1989
    Star Hero: February 1989

 

    - 3e Era Ends

    - 4e Era Begins

 

    Champions 4e: 1989

    
    Mugshots 2: Taking Care of Business (Flying Buffalo for MSPE and Espionage!): 1992

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by GM Joe

[Duke Bushido]

I am very proud of you!

 

Most people forget Mugshots 2.

 

 

 

 

[Joe Walsh]

As I go through Espionage! line by line, word by word, maybe I'm missing something that's more big picture, but so far it seems like a really good implementation of heroic-level HERO System. Mostly I'm finding consistency of presentation issues where, for example, something is mentioned in the middle of a paragraph in the Combat chapter that should have also been mentioned back in the Characters chapter. What I've found so far is below. Let me know if you know of other such items.

 

But like I said, at this point Espionage looks like a great core for heroic role-playing. I don't think it would be beneficial to integrate the superheroic stuff. Weird Talents and the Skills for Contact, Favor, Perks, etc? Sure. But in an Espionage II document that, like Champions II, offers additional material for when it's wanted. I like the idea of keeping the core simple and separate, with two cores (heroic and superheroic), each with its own slope for the decreasing effectiveness of additional similar Disadvantages taken, its own selection of Combat Maneuvers, etc. We'll see how things progress, though.

 

Here's what I've spotted that needs a touch-up so far:

 

Characteristics:
    Include basic Running (6") and Swimming (2") values and note that the Skills section explains how to improve them whle the Movement section explains how to use them.
    Also consider mentioning Presence Attack dice with a note that Presence Attacks are further explained in their own section.

 

Skills:
    Add Conversation and Persuasion to the Anyone skills (place an asterisk after them both in the table and in their entries).
    Provide a list of the Anyone Skills (Familiarities with Climbing, Concealment, Conversation, Deduction, Disguise, Paramedic, Persuasion, Shadowing, and Stealth; plus Transport Skills (Personal Automobiles), Weapon Familiarity (Clubs), and Language (Character's Primary Language)). Discuss their use.

    In the Languages skill, alter the list of more difficult languages to be: Arabic, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, and Korean.

    Page 16, Paragraph 1: Under Transport Skills, change "a car" to "personal automobiles".

    In Weapon Familiarity, include the fact that everyone is assumed to have Weapons Familiarity with Clubs (as mentioned in Combat) given that the default ability to drive a car is mentioned under Transport Skills.

 

Vehicle Combat:
    Page 50, Paragraph 1, sentence 2: Delete this sentence, then add a new one after the sentence on Combat Vehicle Operation: "Characters without Combat Vehicle Operation who have the appropriate Transport Skill have a Control Roll of 8-."

 

And here's what might make sense for a theoretical Espionage II supplement that provides options for running different kinds of heroic campaigns:

   Although most heroic characters begin with 50 points, the GM can decide to begin them with any number of free points that will fit the campaign (most frequently in the 25 to 75 range).
    Add description of how to make new Package Deals.
    Anything relevant from the Covert Action articles from Adventurers Club.
    Add Brawling skill (from JI p 36).
    Add Weird Talents from JI.
    Contact, Favor, and/or Perquisites Skills from Super Agents and/or Danger International.
    Money purchasing system from Danger International (?).
    Add cinematic vehicle chase rules from DI?
    Add the chase rules from JI?

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by GM Joe

[Duke Bushido]

Decide just how wonky you are willing to let things get before renaming 'car.'  I had considered "civilian vehicle" once for a heroic level game, and was promptly reminded that this can include RVs and trucks up to five tons.

 

I felt silly having that pointed out to me when my own "civilian vehicle"  in the summer of 78 was a used school bus I had cut into harvest truck.  Well, that and the motorcycle I moved here on.

 

 

[Joe Walsh]

The double-edged blade of having creative players.

Did you find a better term to use?

 

My intent with the Transport Skills category was to find a term that doesn't overlap with the ones used in the rulebook's Ground Vehicles category:

Construction equipment
Heavy Trucks (semis)
Hovercraft
Military equipment
Motorcycles
Off road Vehicles
Trains

 

I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it, but it does seem that RVs, delivery vans, F-450s and the like would be covered by the book's "car" term, since none of the others above seem to cover them. Interesting!

Edited April 19, 2023 by GM Joe

[Joe Walsh]

On 4/17/2023 at 8:49 PM, Duke Bushido said:

I am very proud of you!

 

Most people forget Mugshots 2.

 

 

 

It wounds me that Mugshots 1 wasn't licensed for Espionage!. How can I have Mugshots 2 and not 1 on the shelf? But how can I have Mugshots 1 in the Espionage! lineup when it isn't for that system? Even worse, Mugshots 1 is saddle-stitched, while 2 is perfect bound. It's a nightmare no matter what I do! 🤣

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by GM Joe

[Duke Bushido]

It was in the lineup for Espionage.  Publication was delayed for a numbrr of years (there is a very tragic explanation in the forward).

 

Mugshots 1 is perfectly usable for Espionage, as it is largely a collection of short (and very good) pulp-esque adventures.  No; the character write-how arent for Espionage, but if you have Mugshots 2 and Stormhaven, conversions are easy enough.  Even if you don't, conversions arent really necessary, either.  Just jot down some partial characters and you're ready to run.

 

(Was Stormhaven on your list?)

 

 

 

[Joe Walsh]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

It was in the lineup for Espionage.  Publication was delayed for a numbrr of years (there is a very tragic explanation in the forward).

 

Mugshots 1 is perfectly usable for Espionage, as it is largely a collection of short (and very good) pulp-esque adventures.  No; the character write-how arent for Espionage, but if you have Mugshots 2 and Stormhaven, conversions are easy enough.  Even if you don't, conversions arent really necessary, either.  Just jot down some partial characters and you're ready to run.

 

Yeah, the cross-pollination between Hero, Steve Jackson, The Chaosium, and Flying Buffalo rocked! And I love that Espionage! even has translation info in the back of the core rulebook.

 

(On another subject, is Espionage! the only HERO product that includes rules for using polyhedral dice with HERO System? I'd bet Steve Long did that at some point, too, but I can't recall it.)

 

 

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

(Was Stormhaven on your list?)

 

Yup!

 

I've never used it, but when I last flipped through it my impression was that it's enough material to build a decent campaign on.

 

Have you ever had a chance to use it?

Edited April 19, 2023 by GM Joe

[Duke Bushido]

I dont know how to answer that.  I have had many occasions to use it, and have it a few different ways, but never the way it was intended, as every time I bring it up, the players if the day are equally divided for and against, so all these years, and it has mostly been a map of swanky place when I needed one.   

 

 

I should also add that I did not buy it for Espionage!  I bougt it to use with Daredevils, which we were all pretty big into at the time.  I had never owned or even heard of Espionage!  (At least, to know it was a Champions-related thing; obviously I could see it written on various things) until this century.

 

And at one point, Stormhaven did service as a noble estate during a siege campaign.  Very nice place to be trapped for a few weeks.   

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Oh:  also, yes; I cant think of any other Hero game that uses polyhedrons save for some suggested alternative rules in a couple of magazines.

 

 

However as you point out, Steve has probably included such "official options" by now, sinve his hobby seems to be take every rule from every game and make it an official option.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Joe Walsh]

Just taking a moment to celebrate that my Tables pass is complete up to page 48. Just 20 pages to go!

(And then I can go back and start double-checking that what's in my text file matches what's in the book exactly...)

Edited April 21, 2023 by GM Joe

[Tech]

On 4/19/2023 at 3:37 PM, GM Joe said:

 

Yeah, the cross-pollination between Hero, Steve Jackson, The Chaosium, and Flying Buffalo rocked! And I love that Espionage! even has translation info in the back of the core rulebook.

 

(On another subject, is Espionage! the only HERO product that includes rules for using polyhedral dice with HERO System? I'd bet Steve Long did that at some point, too, but I can't recall it.)

 

 

 

Yup!

 

I've never used it, but when I last flipped through it my impression was that it's enough material to build a decent campaign on.

 

Have you ever had a chance to use it?

 

If Espionage had rules for using polyhedral dice with HERO system, it most likely came from an Adventurer's Club newsletter, as shown below for you.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Tech

[Joe Walsh]

1 hour ago, Tech said:

If Espionage had rules for using polyhedral dice with HERO system, it most likely came from an Adventurer's Club newsletter, as shown below for you.

 

Wow, I'd forgotten about that newsletter! Such an interesting take on the idea.

 

Do you happen to know when that issue of the newsletter came out?

 

That makes it interesting that in Espionage! George came at it from a different angle, producing a chart that gave a damage dice progression from 1d3 on up:

POLYHEDRAL DICE DAMAGE CONVERSIONS
Listed Damage	Gun Caliber	Polyhedral Damage
1/2D6	.25 Auto	1D3
1D6-1	.22 LR	1D4
1D6	.22 LR Russian, 7.65 mm, .32 Auto, .380 Auto, 9mm Russian	1D6
1D6+-1	.30 Luger, .32 Czech, .38 Special, 9mm, Crossbows	1D8
1D6+-1	.45 Auto, 13 mm Gyrojet	2D4
1 1/2D6	.30 Carbine, .357 Magnum	1D10
1 1/2D6	.41 Magnum	1D4+1D6
2D6-1	.223	1D12
2D6	7.62 Russian, .44 Magnum, .45 Auto Mag	2D6
2D6+-1	7.5 mm Swiss,.30-06, 7.62 Long, .308	1D6+1D8

Edited April 25, 2023 by GM Joe

[Tech]

Do I have the newsletter? Yes. Can I find it? Not at the moment; it's somewhere. I really like Espionage chart.

[dmjalund]

this means that the body to stun ratio goes down if you use larger dice

[Joe Walsh]

Yeah, it needs work!

 

The casualness of a lot of the design (and especially the writing) outside of the main rules is pretty remarkable. Here's a paragraph from the GM advice section, for example(emphasis mine):

 

Quote

Remember the basic rule of role playing games: players react, they don't act (usually). If you depend on the players to think of something to do, you'll never get started. You've got to poke and prod the players into acting. If nothing else, shoot at them! You'll get their attention real quick. Have informers show up and talk to the characters. Whatever you do, don't frustrate all of the player's attempts to find information. If you do, the run won't go anywhere. Don't be afraid to give information to the players. Give them a chance to figure things out, but if they don't, tell them!

 

They casually interchange "players" and "characters" all the time. It's usually not much of a problem, but I sure hope no one took the advice above literally!

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by GM Joe

[Joe Walsh]

More great advice:

 

Quote

Try to stay away from firefights. When firefights occur, try to defuse the situation if it's appropriate. The bad guys will occasionally surrender, you know. Remember, autofire is the great equalizer. If the players have really screwed up, even after every chance to correct their mistakes, don't hesitate to open up on them with automatic weapons.

 

[rravenwood]

11 hours ago, GM Joe said:

13 hours ago, Tech said:

If Espionage had rules for using polyhedral dice with HERO system, it most likely came from an Adventurer's Club newsletter, as shown below for you.

 

Wow, I'd forgotten about that newsletter! Such an interesting take on the idea.

 

Do you happen to know when that issue of the newsletter came out?

 

It's from Hero Games' Newsletter vol 1 no 2, which doesn't contain a publication date, but by taking clues from things mentioned within, can roughly be placed to late 1983 or early 1984.  (It mentions Gencon '83 in the past tense, and asks readers hold off on mailing in "orders for Champions III till June first.")

[Joe Walsh]

1 hour ago, rravenwood said:

 

It's from Hero Games' Newsletter vol 1 no 2, which doesn't contain a publication date, but by taking clues from things mentioned within, can roughly be placed to late 1983 or early 1984.  (It mentions Gencon '83 in the past tense, and asks readers hold off on mailing in "orders for Champions III till June first.")

 

Aha! Very interesting. So that newsletter likely came out after Espionage!

 

I guess that makes sense.

[Duke Bushido]

On 4/19/2023 at 8:48 AM, GM Joe said:

The double-edged blade of having creative players.

 

 

 

 

On 4/19/2023 at 8:48 AM, GM Joe said:

Did you find a better term to use?

 

Sorry, Joe; I missed this question when it first went up.

 

No, Sir; I did not.

 

I waffled a bit over "civilian vehicles" and "light duty vehicles"  which upset one player in particular who could not accept that his F350 was legally a "light duty truck."

 

My own sticking point was the fact that it is harder to drive a 40' straight truck than a semi (well, it was at the time: semi trailers were limited to 40' back then (53' now) and spread axles hadn't even been invented yet) because of the  typically lower frame clearance and up to 12' of tailswing, bur then I though about buses and RVs etc, and finally just ledr it at cars ans lumped RVs in with cars and straight trucks in with heavy trucks....

 

Then there was the problem of what makes X different from Y, and realistically, the biggest difference between a bus and a straight truck is cargo capacity and a stick shifr (back then), so probably anyone who could drive could drive an empty truck and a simple car licence lets you pull a 40' camper trailer, which are typically 6" wider than a semi trailer and the whole thing just fell apart. 

 

Dinally I looked up the licence classes in my state, asked the pkayers to pick one, and they could drive that vehicle or under with that one skill.  Pay a point to handle a trailer, and one more to deive a stick (these are more modern add-ons to our real-world heroic stuff) and called it good.

 

We had a member here a long rime back who complained about nuclear-related stuff and the way it was versus should be handled in games.  Why?  He was stationed on a nuclear sub for years (dint remember what he did, though) and was way more familiar with the subject than is the typical game author.  By his own admission, he "knew too much about it" to actually _game_ it.

 

I have a similar problem related to driving:

 

I grew up farming, meaning I grew up operating tractors and what the game calls "equipment."  (For the record, if you can drive a stick, you can figure out a tractor in ten minutes if the controls are still marked.  Well, certain controls: drive is a combination of stickshift and forklift (attention memelords: I was forklift certified before it was sexy!), excper you generally only shift _once_.  Generally.  In my cottage, a small part of my work life is still equipment operator (though I am a bit rusty on a high-hoe, not having used one in a couple of decades.  Everything else?  No problem).

 

When I ledt home, I started driving truck, and I spent my first ten years in GA (well, 10 of the first 12) moving houses (yes, actual houses; not mobile homes)  and mobile homes (what most people assume you mean when you say houses.  I did both: I was an oversize-certified shanty shaker).

 

And as I think everyone here knows, I have been riding motorcycles since I was 9.  I own 5 right now.

 

Nothing there is meant to be brqggartly-- considering most people here are academics or solidly white-collar, it _couldn't_ be bragging; I am the hillbilly in this group.   It is meant to explain that, like our lost friend the submarine guy, I know too much about the hands-on of the subject to _ever_ find a good gameable representation of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 4/19/2023 at 8:48 AM, GM Joe said:

My intent with the Transport Skills category was to find a term that doesn't overlap with the ones used in the rulebook's Ground Vehicles category:

 

I get it.  The problem is that any category is arbitrary.  For example: 

 

On 4/19/2023 at 8:48 AM, GM Joe said:

Construction equipment

 

I peomise there is less,similarity from one type of equipment to another than most people realize.  Beinf able to run a panloader is entirelt different from being able to run a roller compactor, which is difgerent from a backhoe, which is not like a crane, etc, etc.  In reality, there is no such catch-all for construction equipment.

 

 

 

On 4/19/2023 at 8:48 AM, GM Joe said:

Heavy Trucks (semis)

 

We went over that one.

 

 

 

On 4/19/2023 at 8:48 AM, GM Joe said:

Hovercraft

 

The closest I have ever xome to this is that set of plans from boys magazines in the late 69s and early 70s with the circle of plywood and the reversed-polarity vacuum cleaner motor (or 3; it was best with 3 motors).  Couldn't really steer it, but it stopped when the cords pulled out of the outlet, so....

 

 

I wonr go over the rest because I was only trying to make a point without belaboring it.  Aufdice it to say there are too many similarities between differing categories and too many difference within one category to allow attaining any kind of accurate simulation using categories.  You will end up with that accursed Language Chart everyone is so in love with, but for wheeled engines.

 

Best thing is to either find categories that work for you (I would suggest "skid steer" instead of "tanks," as there is a good bit of similarity between tracked vehicles and fixed-wheeled vehicles that steer by altering wheel speed from one side to the other, but they- it is your project).

 

Anyway, find categories that work well for your concept- however broad or narrow you want them to be-- or do what I did and mostly abandon them.  Though I do have skid steer (plus a point for tanks as the readout are more complex, the speeds faster, and the forward view is lacking) and I have airboats separate from boats, but other than that-  

 

 

 

 

[rravenwood]

17 hours ago, GM Joe said:

 

Aha! Very interesting. So that newsletter likely came out after Espionage!

 

I guess that makes sense.

 

Yeah, actually HGN vol 1 no 1 mentions the availability of some dinged-up stock including copies of Espionage!, so it was definitely after the release of that game.

[Joe Walsh]

41 minutes ago, rravenwood said:

Yeah, actually HGN vol 1 no 1 mentions the availability of some dinged-up stock including copies of Espionage!, so it was definitely after the release of that game.

 

Wow! I have never seen any other issue of HGN than vol 1 no 2. I'm so jealous.

 

[Joe Walsh]

15 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Sorry, Joe; I missed this question when it first went up.

 

No problem! I think we all know your current computer situation, and of course you're not obligated to respond to anything...but thank you for coming back to this.

 

 

15 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

It is meant to explain that, like our lost friend the submarine guy, I know too much about the hands-on of the subject to _ever_ find a good gameable representation of it.

 

Oh, man, that's so true! The more you know, the harder it is to enjoy gameable (or watchable) levels of it in entertainment. When they make computers into magic boxes I just have to let it go. I can't imagine what watching TV must be like for most doctors, cops, and lawyers.

 

 

15 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Dinally I looked up the licence classes in my state, asked the pkayers to pick one, and they could drive that vehicle or under with that one skill.  Pay a point to handle a trailer, and one more to deive a stick (these are more modern add-ons to our real-world heroic stuff) and called it good.

 

That sounds like a good way to house rule it!

 

 

15 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

You will end up with that accursed Language Chart everyone is so in love with, but for wheeled engines.

 

And then we could add the GURPS defaults system (or maybe a good old fashioned skill web) and have a fun time.

 

Thank goodness we have the Espionage! approach to the Languages skill. That works for me, but then I'm not a linguist!