How would you launch an ornithopter from a sailing ship?

[assault]

Today's dumb question: suppose you had ornithopters (aircraft that fly like birds), but were restricted to sailing ships on the surface. Ignore the why - it's fantasy weirdness.

 

Most of the space above the decks of your ships is covered by masts, sails and ropes. Your ornithopters have aircraft like wing spans.

 

How would you go about launching 'thopters from such a ship?

 

I have some ideas, but I would like some more.

[Lord Liaden]

My first thought would be, a big modified ballista mounted at the prow.

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[assault]

Landing would be nice too.

 

If it helps, the ships are basically catamaran hulled sailing canoes. Since they are held together by magic and duct tape, they can be of arbitrary size.

Edited April 14, 2023 by assault

[Tom Cowan]

4 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

My first thought would be, a big modified ballista mounted at the prow.

 

 

 

off the aft may work better

1 minute ago, assault said:

Landing would be nice too.

I hope you have floats

have you looked at spotter planes that battle ships used?

[Lord Liaden]

I don't think so. The prow is narrower, less obstruction for the arms of the ballista and the wings of the ornithopter. Plus if the ship's sailing before the wind, the ornithopter will get more lift.

 

15 minutes ago, assault said:

Landing would be nice too.

 

If your ornithopter can land vertically, that's not a problem. Set up a platform on deck. If not, since this is for ship use, you'll have to give it pontoons so it can land on water. Then it will probably need a crane to haul it back on board.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah you'd have to put it on a catapult or launching device on the bowsprit, its really the only place that would be somewhat clear of sheets and sails.  Or launch a ramp and have it take off from that.

[Duke Bushido]

Reverse crossbow, with the lines pulling the arms, or you will have a hard time pulling the line,through rhe masts themselves.

 

Because of this problem, I am inclined to think modified trebuchet, tweaked to throw the payload extra high, giving it glide altitude to build boyance under the wings as well as forward momentum (at the cost of some forward momentum, of course).

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Since it is fantasy why not have the ornithopter   have folding wings.  Carry it like a life boat and lower into the water.  It uses oars to gain some distance from the ship and then takes off when it is fare enough away. 

[GDShore]

Okay, with a catamaran style vessel, all the masts cam be on the "canoe parts"  and lateen form, with a wide linking deck between. The deck would be opened both fore and aft, a catapult however would not be necessary if you have magic. The ornithopter would/could have a levitation spell on it giving it a vertical takeoff landing ability, the wings which flap like a birds do not give the vehicle lift but rather propulsion. In addition to the lateen sails, the vessel is propelled by sweeps, again with magic water ingress is prevented. 

     The above is a short description of the capital ship of the capital ship of the Kingdom of Skeene's navy in my world. I call it a Sea Dragon class ship, with 3 subclasses, 1 with 5 ornithopters, 2 with 4 griffons + riders, 3 with 2 red dragons. Simply though, Assault's question was on how to launch such (and of course recover) in a world with magic not really that hard.

[GDShore]

looking at LL's ballista, the weight would probably seriously, adversely affect buoyancy. That much weight forward would sink your single hulled in the first major storm, even placed on the linking deck would require very... careful  balancing. LoneWolf, your method could also work. 

[assault]

Now I have finished work, I can go into more detail about the ships.

 

I'm more or less basing them on the Papuan Lakatoi design. These vessels were used in coastal trade along the south coast of New Guinea. There is evidence that they sometimes reached Australia.

 

They could carry more cargo than Polynesian outrigger canoes, but were less seaworthy, since they were basically a bunch of canoes lashed together and at risk of falling apart in heavy seas.

 

The cool part is that they were built with Stone Age (Neolithic) technology.

 

Magic allows them to be bigger and better of course.

 

They used "crab claw" sails, similar to those used by both the Polynesians and various cultures in South East Asia.

 

[assault]

I don't have as clear an image of the ornithopters.

 

I'm thinking that folding wings and floats are a good idea. That's fine: ducks are birds too.

 

Beyond that... I don't know.

[GDShore]

The "crab claw" is a rather primitive sail tig, in certain circumstances, very efficient. However it does not scale up. If you are to launch a vehicle of 6 to 10 meter wingspan and length of 5 to 8 meter  you need a largesh boat. You will possibly need a beam equal to your wingspan and an overall length of 4 to 5 times the aircraft's length. Too large to massive for crab claw sails to be efficient. The folding wing idea is not bad but not on pontoons, use a hull design similar to that of the "flying clippers". 

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, GDShore said:

looking at LL's ballista, the weight would probably seriously, adversely affect buoyancy. That much weight forward would sink your single hulled in the first major storm, even placed on the linking deck would require very... careful  balancing. LoneWolf, your method could also work. 

 

What if the ballista can be disassembled? The parts could be stored in the hold, or maybe distributed along the deck for quicker assembly. But it's only put together when the ornithopter is to be launched, obviously not during a storm.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, GDShore said:

Okay, with a catamaran style vessel, all the masts cam be on the "canoe parts"  and lateen form, with a wide linking deck between. The deck would be opened both fore and aft, a catapult however would not be necessary if you have magic. The ornithopter would/could have a levitation spell on it giving it a vertical takeoff landing ability, the wings which flap like a birds do not give the vehicle lift but rather propulsion. In addition to the lateen sails, the vessel is propelled by sweeps, again with magic water ingress is prevented. 

     The above is a short description of the capital ship of the capital ship of the Kingdom of Skeene's navy in my world. I call it a Sea Dragon class ship, with 3 subclasses, 1 with 5 ornithopters, 2 with 4 griffons + riders, 3 with 2 red dragons. Simply though, Assault's question was on how to launch such (and of course recover) in a world with magic not really that hard.

 

Well, with the right kind of magic, all sorts of practical problems disappear. The ornithopter could magically fold up into a small package, like Freyr's ship Skidbladnir. Toss it overboard into the sea, where it unfolds to full size on pontoons. Climb aboard, then levitate into the air and start flapping.

[assault]

I must say, that's lame.

 

The Dark Empire sneers 

[assault]

Looking back at this, I might have an issue about Planetary Romance.

 

And Michael Moorcock.

 

Could be worse 

[assault]

Just for fun, All At Sea in the Dark Navy.

 

I'm not sure what this is about.

[Asperion]

8 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Since it is fantasy why not have the ornithopter   have folding wings.  Carry it like a life boat and lower into the water.  It uses oars to gain some distance from the ship and then takes off when it is fare enough away. 

 

This works out the best. Copy the way that real birds operate and very little can go wrong,especially when the problems get ironed out. 

[Old Man]

In the His Majesty's Dragon series (by Naomi Novik), the fleets of the Napoleonic setting have purpose-built ships to carry dragons, with platforms built on the prow.  It's noted that these ships can't use jibs and are heavy and slow.

 

Fore-and-aft-rigged ships might have slightly less obstructed decks to port and starboard, making it a little easier to yeet the ornithopters to either side.

 

The massive junks of Zheng He's treasure fleet required relatively little rigging and had plenty of deck space.

 

[GDShore]

Interesting rejoinder, LL however Assault mentioned in his second post that the vessels were catamaran, and that there was magic in this world. Thus Levitation. As for disassembling ask anyone who has ever taken his fathers watch apart about putting it back together, and that on a nice stable table or counter not the pitching deck of a ship at sea. The reason I said it would sink the ship in a storm. is that the catapult shown was a Roman 3 Talent device, (refers to the weight of shot fired at a range of 900 to 1100 meters) { R. Talent = 32.3 kg. = 71 lbs. 3 oz. The devices mass will be close to 500 kg. This can be reduced by building the body completely in iron by approximately 1/3 reducing mass by about 160 t0 170 kg. [weight is now @ 340 kg.] 

     Modern aircraft carriers use a steam catapult to launch aircraft from the deck, this is not sufficient in and of itself, the carrier is required to turn into the wind, at close to top speed. The best rigged sailing ships (American Clippers) could sail within 6 points (maybe) of a head wind. A sailing ship can not turn into the wind or it will luff, and come to a near dead stop. The launch from a Catapult will not impart enough velocity to a vehicle that probably weighs north of 150 kg. when crewed. (50 kg. crew of 1, up to 100 kg. vehicle) A vessel that was oared, might be able to create a wind across the deck to impart sufficient lift to achieve takeoff. So... if you can counter mass achieving takeoff velocity is simple.

[assault]

19 hours ago, GDShore said:

The "crab claw" is a rather primitive sail tig, in certain circumstances, very efficient. However it does not scale up. 

 

Yes, it might be better using one of the related rigs. Some were used on much bigger vessels.

[GDShore]

Tom Cowan suggests firing the aircraft off the stern, for a purely mechanical launch this would most likely have the greatest degree of success. If launched directly into a following wind TO velocity might be achieved. There is a sailing maneuver called Stealing the Wind, ship A crosses directly behind ship B crossing the path of the wind thus stealing it. This would also prevent it from being launched from the prow the ships own sails steal a following wind. 

     My wife is a nature nut, and I have had to watch more nature programs than I care to contemplate, she particularly likes birds. The Albatross, Goonie and some of the bigger Seagulls, have problems taking off from "land or sea". On water they turn into the wind then begin flapping their wings which lifts them partway out of the water, where they actually run on the surface giving them just enough lift to fly. Unless the propulsion system can overcome the drag of both the water and gravity you are not taking off from the water.

[Opal]

22 hours ago, assault said:

I don't have as clear an image of the ornithopters

 

If they're sufficiently bird-like, magical ornithopters might be able to roost on the spars and take off and land (alight) from there?

[GDShore]

When I heard ornithopter, my mind immediately went to a crewed device, but Opal makes a very valid point, it could be a drone. It could be a spy or a font of knowledge (aka Clash of Titans) or an item of power.... launching it becomes a moot exercise, a simple arbalest or small Roman ballista that can go anywhere on a ship.