Spears

[LoneWolf]

I don’t have FHC but from what I can see the stats in it are different than the other books.  Both the Fantasy Hero book and the rule book have a short spear listed as +0 OCV doing 1d6+1 damage  with a normal stun multiple and a STR minimum of 10.  A long spear has a -1 OCV does 2d6 damage with a normal stun multiple and a 13 STR min.  The long spear is also listed as a 2H weapon.     The STR min for the long spear is 14 in the Fantasy Hero book.   The long spear is also listed as a EL weapon in the rules book, but not in Fantasy Hero.  That gives the one from the rule book a 3m reach instead of 2.  I can see a 10+ foot spear having a -1 OCV. 

 

The problem seems that the stats for the same thing are different depending on the source. 

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Based on my own hours of experience with scythes, I can't imagine trying to swing a scythe at someone who is trying not to be hit and actually connecting.  What would actually happen is I'd wind up, and the bad guy would casually step forward and kill me two or three times before the scythe got more than halfway around.

 

 

Pretty much lines up with my experience.  It _looks_ like some savage kind of polearm (yes, autocorrect.  I was secretly trying to type "pineal" a half-dozen times.  Ugh.), there isn't any efficent or effecrive way to use it anything more than exaggerating the same motions you would use to cut hay- swing higher, maybe; lean out a bit more, perhaps, but ultimately, it isn't a polearm.  Using it in a way that won't exhaust you in five minutes or leave you open for counterstrikes means using it pretty close in, where a longsword in your ipponent's hands would give him a distinct reach advantage, assuming he was strong and nimble enough to thrust it.

 

I can see it being a nightmare against men armed with daggers (unless they can throw them well), and with a skilled wielder, a roughly even match for a shortsword, but the onky people using this as a go-to weapon are doing it because they don't have baseball bat.

 

 

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

.  The place for long 1h spears (and most polearms) is in massed combat where your target can't trivially sidestep,

 

 

 

 

Another place where a scythe would suck as your only weapon: you'd either be unabke to generate a powerful swing or you would be reaping the men on either side of you as you attacked the one in front.

 

 

You know, it is a bit off topic, but thinking about it at all, and an STR minimum is _not_ the biggest problem facing the idea of a weaponized scythe.  It's like the medieval Bat'leth:  looks interesting, but everyone kind of has to agree to step into it and get hit during the pre-filming choreography.

 

 

[assault]

For military use, scythe blades were typically set on their handles polearm style, not sticking out to the side as in their civilian use.

 

Still a rather dodgy improvised weapon but not entirely useless.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok as an aside, my youngest wanted his elf to use a scythe in Basic Fantasy so we agreed on the damage and went with it.

 

And for spears, I always consider unless specified, spears to be just the spear head and nothing else. 

[GDShore]

Actually the scythe was used to good effect in a couple of peasant revolts in Germany, "if the peasant doesn't break (iffy at best) the scythe is useful for dismounting cavalry, by simply chopping the legs of the horses. As for a weapon to stand in line versus sword armed infantry (or spear armed) you might as well cut your own throat with it, faster and less painful than what's coming. The Asagai may be the best war spear designed, it has the versatility of a sword, it can stab or thrust, cut, slash, chop, block and parry. Paired with the Zulu shield it makes them one of the best light infantries ever fielded. 

     From the gaming point of view, it may out perform the sword, choked up just below the "head" and swung you have a mace for crushing. What beat the Zulu wasn't a superior foe but superior technology,... the gun and remember the gun did not  save the British at Isandlwana. 

[Duke Bushido]

A nice light spear might best be handled as a meter or two of Stretching and a naked "Killing" (yeah, I am not making that a conversation; just mentioning it), possibly a naked armor piercing for STR of X plus.

 

 

[Old Man]

47 minutes ago, GDShore said:

Actually the scythe was used to good effect in a couple of peasant revolts in Germany, "if the peasant doesn't break (iffy at best) the scythe is useful for dismounting cavalry, by simply chopping the legs of the horses. As for a weapon to stand in line versus sword armed infantry (or spear armed) you might as well cut your own throat with it, faster and less painful than what's coming. The Asagai may be the best war spear designed, it has the versatility of a sword, it can stab or thrust, cut, slash, chop, block and parry. Paired with the Zulu shield it makes them one of the best light infantries ever fielded. 

 

The assegai is a bit hard to classify.  It looks like a short spear but functions like a gladius.

 

47 minutes ago, GDShore said:

     From the gaming point of view, it may out perform the sword, choked up just below the "head" and swung you have a mace for crushing. What beat the Zulu wasn't a superior foe but superior technology,... the gun and remember the gun did not  save the British at Isandlwana. 

 

Guns are more effective when combined with ammunition. 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Old Man, the Assegai isn’t the only weapon thats’s hard to clarify. Depending on area and century Polearms can be confusing to. And don’t forget the old question, when does a knife become a sword?

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Old Man, the Assegai isn’t the only weapon thats’s hard to clarify. Depending on area and century Polearms can be confusing to. And don’t forget the old question, when does a knife become a sword?

 

I'm unaware of any Oakeshott-like typology for spears and polearms but it could be useful.

 

It occurs to me that the reason Assegais are so handy is because the reduced length reduces the moment of rotational inertia around axes orthogonal to the shaft.  That makes it easier to point in combat but would also make it much less stable if thrown.  Whereas the higher rotational inertia of a long spear is hard to overcome with a one hand grip and its lever length of like two inches.

[GDShore]

Quote

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

The assegai is a bit hard to classify.  It looks like a short spear but functions like a gladius.

 

 

Guns are more effective when combined with ammunition. 

 

The British soldiers at Isandlwana did have ammunition, well 10 rounds each, the real problem was bureaucratic intransigence, the quartermasters insisted on a signed order from an officer of rank higher than a subaltern. That bottleneck cost them their lives.  The Asagai does function much like a gladius, a meter and a half long gladius but do not forget that overhand mace swing which probably came as a surprise to many an enemy. 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Old Man the Assegai isn’t the only weapon thats’s hard to clarify. 

 

 

You know, this weapon has never been on my radar before-- I mean, I was aware of it (who didn't have a period when they were fascinated with the Zulu warriors, honestly?)

 

After this discussion of the unique qualities if it, I think I am,going to add it weapons options in both my Fantasy HERO Games and Traveller.  The focus on thrust and the bludgeoning aspects seem like it would actually be a better shipboard weapon than is a cutlass. 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

All this talk of Assegais makes me really miss that golden age of California Gun Shows, where you would See Assegais and shields, next to Japanese Matchlocks, and boxes full of blades and bayonets. Accessible (if unaffordable) piece of history. Though this was back when I would buy any military surplus rifle if it was less than $150. We all saw Zulu, and the assegais looked very ....business like.

1 minute ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

You know, this weapon has never been on my radar before-- I mean, I was aware of it (who didn't have a period when they were fascinated with the Zulu warriors, honestly?)

 

After this discussion of the unique qualities if it, I think I am,going to add it weapons options in both my Fantasy HERO Games and Traveller.  The focus on thrust and the bludgeoning aspects seem like it would actually be a better shipboard weapon than is a cutlass. 

 

 

 It would not be bad as a shipboard weapon for Traveller, with bothy Piercing, and blunt trauma damage. Though in Zulu, you saw it used in conjuction with that tall , cowhide shield. FOr sip boarding you may want to pair it with a TAC Shield. (But I would still prefer the Sternmeyer Boarding Carbine in 10 Ga.)

[GDShore]

 When I was younger, much younger, high school younger I found a friend who was an escapee from Aparthied with his family. They were Zulu, and his father had 3 - 4 shields and 3 Asagai, all beautiful weapons. I am not large. At 17, I was 1.7 meters tall and a strapping 39 kg. and the weapons were beautifully balanced, they flowed in ones hand but the real surprise were the shields. Varying in length from 1.2 meter to 2 meter and up to 1 in width. A cruciform substructure with an oval of withy overlaid with bull hide (apparently the best are made from Cape Buffalo Bull hide) the vertical portion of the cruciform is sharpened top and bottom, to allow the holder to stab an errant foot or a misplaced jaw. It's almost as dangerous a weapon as the bloody Asagai. Finally the Asagai can be used as a brace weapon form. My friends father would dance with the Asagai's on occasion and it was awe inspiring a true thing of beauty! 

[Christougher]

On 4/29/2023 at 2:05 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

@Old Man, the Assegai isn’t the only weapon thats’s hard to clarify. Depending on area and century Polearms can be confusing to. And don’t forget the old question, when does a knife become a sword?

 

My fantasy system actually has a rule for that - when the whole is greater than a cubit (elbow to fingertip).  Weapons shorter than that are legal to carry in most towns, longer are not.

[GDShore]

Quote

7 hours ago, Christougher said:

 

My fantasy system actually has a rule for that - when the whole is greater than a cubit (elbow to fingertip).  Weapons shorter than that are legal to carry in most towns, longer are not.

 

The problem with cubit is that no two are actually the same, I am 1.7 meter tall, my cubit is very different than that of a man who is 1.98 meter tall. It can vary between 2.5 cm. and 10 cm. in length. In a feudal society taking the weapons from a Baron, a Count  or a Duke is likely to have unpleasant and serious consequences for who is trying to do the taking. Far more likely is peace bonding, the tying of the weapon into its sheath. (besides throwing knives and axe's are a lot shorter than a cubit)

[Ninja-Bear]

7 hours ago, GDShore said:

The problem with cubit is that no two are actually the same, I am 1.7 meter tall, my cubit is very different than that of a man who is 1.98 meter tall. It can vary between 2.5 cm. and 10 cm. in length. In a feudal society taking the weapons from a Baron, a Count  or a Duke is likely to have unpleasant and serious consequences for who is trying to do the taking. Far more likely is peace bonding, the tying of the weapon into its sheath. (besides throwing knives and axe's are a lot shorter than a cubit)

Have you heard if the Royal Cubit? Yes cubit can vary but they have learned to standardize the cubit.

[GDShore]

 Yes the Royal Cubit was a kingdoms standard for a reign, the next king up however could well change it to his specification. A specific cubit might last 2 or 3 reigns but like royal law it depended on the royal whim. The English standardized measurements, mostly for trade (also currency) though why they chose the rather arcane system they chose is still ,,, beyond me. 

[archer]

On 4/28/2023 at 4:13 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Yo!

 

And yes; it's heavier.  However, it's also balanced, and isn't swung at all like a sword or a staff.  The reach- if you are using it as a weapon and not a harvesring implement- really isn't much; you would have more range thrusting a sword.  It needs a sweeping / twisting motion to work, but as a person who has only ever goofed around with a sword, I can say comfortably that I could (and have) use a scythe for a couple of hours between water breaks.   I feel pretty sure i's be done swinging a sword in ten or fifteen minutes.

 

As always, YMMV.

 

The scythe we had when I was a kid was made probably sometime in the 1920's (like many of the older things we had lying around) and was massively made.

 

Also, I'm about 5'7" now (and maybe a bit shorter back then) and it's very likely the thing was made for a somewhat larger person. So my perception of how well-balanced it was and how much strength it'd take to use it all day might be affected by that. 

[Duke Bushido]

Fair enough.

 

As an implement of reaping, they are remarkably well-balanced.  They can be find-tuned by shortening the end or assing a small amount of weight.

 

I would not so much like to attempt to use it like a bat, a sword, or a polearm (though someone did mention that as a polearm, the blade is mounted differently.  Still, if it is on a properly cruiked staff, it'd be- well, it would still be awful.  If it is on a straight shaft, then it's a scythe on a stick.   

 

 

[archer]

Just now, Duke Bushido said:

Fair enough.

 

As an implement of reaping, they are remarkably well-balanced.  They can be find-tuned by shortening the end or assing a small amount of weight.

 

I would not so much like to attempt to use it like a bat, a sword, or a polearm (though someone did mention that as a polearm, the blade is mounted differently.  Still, if it is on a properly cruiked staff, it'd be- well, it would still be awful.  If it is on a straight shaft, then it's a scythe on a stick.   

 

 

 

In paintings and drawings of peasants carrying scythes to war, they're depicted carrying them vertically rather than horizontally. So I've always assumed that, at the beginning of the battle at least, that they brought the blade down toward the opponent's head rather than trying to sweep the legs.

[L. Marcus]

I'd hazard that war scythes were used rather like a glaive.

[GDShore]

Its more likely that the glaive acts like a war scythe, the military fork derives from the pitch fork, the war hammer from the blacksmith's, ect. ect. ect.

[GDShore]

Actually Mr. Taylor, there may be a real world analogy to how much that factor might be. The average height of the Japanese male born between 1910 - 1920 was 159 to 160 cm. at the start of the second world war, those born in 1980 it was 171.7 cm. an increase of +12 cm. The average height of the American/Canadian born between 1910 - 1920 at the start of WWII was 172 to 173 cm. for those born in 1980 it is 179 cm. an increase of +6 cm. The reason for this leap upwards in Japan is massively improved nutrition in particular animal protein. If we extrapolate from this it would appear that improved nutrition and health care lead to stronger, taller, heathier persons.  The average medieval peasant was probably taller, stronger and healthier than we have previously believed. There is one known exception, the Russian peasant who was only allowed to eat meat on rare occasions, the meat they raised was reserved for the "Boyars" table. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The only real historical data we have to judge by are things like suits of armor, clothing, home construction, etc and all of it points toward people who were shorter than modern westerners are on average by several inches.  I mean, the Americans who went to war in England noticed that they were on average taller than Brits because of more food etc.  You can see the rise of average height over time in just the previous couple of centuries.  We generally do not have data on strength, but height usually results in longer, stronger muscles which might bring modern slackers like me close to hard working peasants in the past?  I dunno.

[MrAgdesh]

I’d imagine that people were probably far stronger, generally. Everyday life was hard.