Help Me Build: END Lockout Limitation

[Black Rose]

I've been trying to make my thoughts on this topic coherent for a while. This has been sitting in a Chrome tab for the better part of a month. Hopefully, my point comes across, but I already know I'm going to have to clarify this at some point.

 

I'm trying to figure out a proper valuing for what I call the END Lockout Limitation. This Limitation means that the power (usually Persistent, sometimes Constant, or even Time-Limited) "locks out" some of the character's personal END. I plan on using this for a magic system, one with a lot of Differing Modifiers builds, so something to bear in mind.

 

EX: Golden Torch (REC 10, END 50) can manifest a Flame Aura, which grants Resistant Protection and some Life Support; total value is about 40 AP. To use it, Golden Torch "pays" 20 END to activate the Aura. For as long as the Flame Aura is "on", his END cap is at 30 and he cannot Recover above that. Obviously, since END costs 1 CP for 5 pts, it needs to do more than 1 END per 10 AP, thus the example being 1 END per 2 AP.

 

I did a basic calc using the Side Effects Limitation as a template:

• Drain END 1d6 (returns after 6 Hours (+2)), Always Occurs, Predefined Amount (5 END); -1/2; this is "worth" 30 AP, so I'm defining this as 1 CP (5 pts) of END per 50 Active Points, or 1 END per 10 Active Points.
• If I "double" that -- Drain END 1 1/2d6 (returns after 6 Hours (+2)), Always Occurs, Predefined Amount; -???); the Drain is "worth" 45 AP (halfway between Major and Extreme) it becomes 2 CPs (10 pts) of END per 50 Active Points, or 2 END per 10 Active Points. 
• If I "triple" that -- Drain END 2d6 (returns after 6 Hours (+2)), Always Occurs, Predefined Amount; -1 1/2); the Drain is "worth" 60 AP, and it becomes 3 CPs (15 pts) of END per 50 Active Points, or 3 END per 10 Active Points. 

By the RAW, it can't really go up from here, but the trend is obvious -- -1/2, then -1, then -1 1/2. Using that assumption, if the END is "Locked Out" for 6 Hours (a little longer than Long Term END, but it all comes back as soon as it's "unlocked" and you don't have to rest to Recover it), END Lockout is worth -1/2 for 1x END, -1 for 2x END, and -1 1/2 for 3x END. And we could go from there -- -2 for 4x END, -2 1/2 for 5x END, and so on, basically using the Increased END Cost values just one step off

 

From my perspective, for the purposes of calculating value, the important parts are:

1. how much END is Locked Out compared to the Active Point value of the power
2. does the value change if the power is used for longer or shorter lengths of time

 

Anyone have any thoughts?

Edited April 27, 2023 by Black Rose
Clarity

[Duke Bushido]

Actually, that is very much like the majority of my magic systems.

 

My write ups are a lot simpler, though.  I call the Limitation "Prepaid" rather than building out END Drains and all that.  It simply meams,that the caster must pay the END price up front  for the duration he wishes the spell to run.  Like yours, he pays from his personal END or Mana or Special Sauce or whatever is powering magic in that game, and he may not recover any that has not been used up by the spell.  I usually base the value at -1, going up if there is a large END cost to run the power at full value for a turn or so, or if it is a Defense spell (nothing sucks like having to pay END on 50 pts of Force field when you only needed 10, and that END is just kind of hanging out there until you use it up).  I tend do resuve the value for Instant powers or if there is a small END Cost to run it for a turn or so.

 

Oh- and I increase the value if it is a useable by others: you can just leave the  Force Wall up until the magic juice runs dry and then recover that END normally.  If someone else is controlling the on and off, he might want to hang onto the balance for "just in case" purposes.

 

Not uncommon to assign large END requirments a -2; certainly not uncommon to assign a Usable by others a -2, and absolutely normal for large END requirements UBO.

 

If you are poweing from personal END instead of Magic Star Stuff, I would start at -1.5 instead of -1, and adjust from there.  Assyming typical heroic level END values of course.

 

The only problem I have ever dound with this is the old Fantasy Trip problem, where players start giving you some seriously buff wizards:

 

"Jake, was his END supposed to be 34 or 40?  You've got it kind if screwed up here; it looks like-'

 

"Right!  Three hundred and forty; that's correcr!'

 

Yeah....   Guess again....

 

[Black Rose]

When you say "and he may not recover any that has not been used up by the spell," do you mean

I paid 20, but only needed 12, so 8 is wasted, or

I paid 20, and can't REC that Prepaid END until it's "used up" or otherwise dissipated, or

Something else entirely?

 

I don't know if it came across in my first post, but I like the idea of portioning off some of this finite-in-size-but-replenishing pool, and only getting it back when you undo your working. I did something similar with a Multipower, where some of the slots "took up" more points than they were actually worth. The movement powers (Running, Leaping) cost like normal, but the +2 SPD boost was worth 40 AP, effectively eating the whole pool.

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, Black Rose said:

When you say "and he may not recover any that has not been used up by the spell," do you mean

I paid 20, but only needed 12, so 8 is wasted, or

I paid 20, and can't REC that Prepaid END until it's "used up" or otherwise dissipated,

 

 

 

Yes.   Sorry i wasn't clear.  I have come to a point where I need glasses to read this screen, and I had keft them at work, which made all that touch screening that much leass pleasant than normal, so....

 

But yes: whatever END you paid is tied up until it is spent (by the spell) and cannot be recovered.

 

 

5 hours ago, Black Rose said:

 

I don't know if it came across in my first post, but I like the idea of portioning off some of this finite-in-size-but-replenishing pool, and only getting it back when you undo your working.

 

Ditto.  Originally, I came go with thr "cannot reciver until spent" thing as a way to prevent machine gunning fireballs- mandatory limitations like all spells cost END and Extra Time (but allow one to 'precast' or 'ready' a spell to be released in the future) so as to five non-magic characters a chance to do more than be spectators.   Most of my magicbsyatems have retained one or more aspects of the first, as I have been happy with the power level that creates, and happy that it doesn't result in a DnD-like set of 'magic only' characters.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Black Rose said:

 

 

I did something similar with a Multipower, where some of the slots "took up" more points than they were actually worth. The movement powers (Running, Leaping) cost like normal, but the +2 SPD boost was worth 40 AP, effectively eating the whole pool.

 

 

Yep.  I have done similar things with magic Multipowers, but to be honest, I don't use Multipower all that often with Magic systems.  I have nothing against a Multipower in other genres, but for some reason (seriously: I can't explain it) I just don't very often like them for magic.

 

Just one of those things, I guess. 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK I'm not following the reason you're paying 1 END per 2 active points but that's not relevant to the query.

 

What you want is a limitation that creates a ceiling to how much END a character can burn, beyond which presumably the character then begins to burn stun as per the rules.  I would call this a -¼ limitation, up to half their END, and a -½ for lower than half.  Its an annoyance, but not a very significant one, unless your characters tend to regularly go through a lot of END every turn.

[Grailknight]

Maybe I'm too straightforward but will this work?

 

+30 END (6 Active Points); Lockout (-1/2).

 

When you are using the Lockout Power your base END stat is all you have. You can't recover above what your current END stat is at any time.

 

If the Lockout Power is something you rarely use, then you'd reduce the Lockout Limitation to -1/4.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Grailknight

[Black Rose]

Okay, I wasn't clear. Apologies. Clearly I've been in my own head too much lately. Let me try to explain again.

 

Your character (REC 5, END 50) has a Defensive power with Costs END on it; it costs 5 END per Phase to use. I can modify the END cost in the following ways (as I understand the rules):

• 1/2 END or 0 END on it (modify or remove the Costs END Limitation)
• Costs END Only To Activate (modify the Costs END Limitation)
• (if it's a Defense power) use the Defense-Based END Cost -- I do think this is a cool idea, BTW
• Delayed END Cost at "per Turn" or "per Minute or more"

I want to make a modifier that says "This END you just spent right now? It can't be Recovered until this power is Dispelled/turned off/wears off/etc. Your END ceiling is lowered by this much." The guy in the example above? He spends 5 END, lowering his END to 45, and no matter how many Recoveries he takes? Can't get his END above 45 until that power is Dispelled/turned off/wears off/etc.

 

Obviously this is of no value for powers that last less than a Turn. I see it used more for Persistent powers and Instant powers where the effect sticks around for a while (Transforms, Mind Control, etc.). Effectively, it "Drains" some of the user's END until the power/effect turns off -- that's where all that Drain-based Side Effect stuff came from in the OP.

 

 

On 4/28/2023 at 12:02 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK I'm not following the reason you're paying 1 END per 2 active points but that's not relevant to the query.

 

What you want is a limitation that creates a ceiling to how much END a character can burn, beyond which presumably the character then begins to burn stun as per the rules.  I would call this a -¼ limitation, up to half their END, and a -½ for lower than half.  Its an annoyance, but not a very significant one, unless your characters tend to regularly go through a lot of END every turn.

The reason for the heavy END spend was to simulate a system (GURPS) with a smaller energy pool from which to cast and which recovers more slowly. GURPS Fatigue Points are different from HERO END -- in terms of just recovery rates, it's a 1:200 ratio. And I have no interest in modeling it that exactly. That's why I liked the idea of spending END and not being able to recover it for a while.

 

 

On 4/28/2023 at 3:21 AM, Grailknight said:

Maybe I'm too straightforward but will this work?

 

+30 END (6 Active Points); Lockout (-1/2).

 

When you are using the Lockout Power your base END stat is all you have. You can't recover above what your current END stat is at any time.

 

If the Lockout Power is something you rarely use, then you'd reduce the Lockout Limitation to -1/4.

Not exactly. What I want is a way to say "this Characteristic (specifically END, but I've toyed with the idea of spells that reduce the caster's other Characteristics, like INT, EGO, or something like that) is penalized until the effect is over." Like the really powerful spells that cost the caster INT or years of life, but once the spell is over, the "cost" comes back to the caster. Like a rental deposit.

 

I really hope I was clearer.

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Black Rose said:

Not exactly. What I want is a way to say "this Characteristic (specifically END, but I've toyed with the idea of spells that reduce the caster's other Characteristics, like INT, EGO, or something like that) is penalized until the effect is over." Like the really powerful spells that cost the caster INT or years of life, but once the spell is over, the "cost" comes back to the caster. Like a rental deposit.

 

I really hope I was clearer.

 

That's exactly what I did but in order to make it happen, you have to buy the END that will be penalized as a Power so you can apply the Limitation to that amount.

 

Say that the character has an END Characteristic of 30. Then buy an additional "x" END with the Lock Out Limitation.

 

You now have 30+x END at all times except when you use the Lock Out Limitation Power. Then the additional END goes away, and you have 30 END as your total. You can't use or Recover the +x END portion, it doesn't exist just as if it were a slot in a Multipower with no points of the pool allocated to it. Your END Characteristic is currently 30. As soon as you turn off the limiting Power, the +x END returns and you have a 30+x END Characteristic once more. Now you can recover up to a total of 30+x whereas before you were capped at 30.

 

The additional +x actually changes the value of the Characteristic just as if you'd bought STR or ED or any other Characteristic. You just have to purchase it separate from the rest of your END because it's the actual amount that will have the Limitation.

 

 

[tombrown803]

sounds like a form of side effect to me

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think Grailknight has the most effective, cleanest way of doing the build and it would cost very few points to construct.

[Duke Bushido]

22 hours ago, Black Rose said:

 

Not exactly. What I want is a way to say "this Characteristic (specifically END, but I've toyed with the idea of spells that reduce the caster's other Characteristics, like INT, EGO, or something like that) is penalized until the effect is over." Like the really powerful spells that cost the caster INT or years of life, but once the spell is over, the "cost" comes back to the caster. Like a rental deposit.

 

I really hope I was clearer.

 

 

Right.

 

I got that, and that is what I did.  But rather than screw around with all the various possibilities and lumitaions and advantages and limited limitations and so on and so forth, I figured "all, in this world, this is just how magic works" and declared exactly that.

 

It is how this ("these," actually; I reuse this idea with some frequency) universe operates, and there is no other way to so it.

 

Sure: it's great to be able to figure out all the tiny bits and details to come up with your unique option.  But if it is the only option, it really isn't worth the fuss unless really crowded power builds are your specific jam.

 

 

[DentArthurDent]

Wow! I really like this concept. 
 

If I understand it correctly, it feels like the caster is sending out her own Mana (or Spirit or …) to create a protective flame aura (or cocoon or …). Then when she retrieves her Mana (or …) the aura dissipates. 
 

Very cinematic! I’m going to run this by my gaming group and see if they have any ideas.

[unclevlad]

20 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

That's exactly what I did but in order to make it happen, you have to buy the END that will be penalized as a Power so you can apply the Limitation to that amount.

 

Say that the character has an END Characteristic of 30. Then buy an additional "x" END with the Lock Out Limitation.

 

You now have 30+x END at all times except when you use the Lock Out Limitation Power. Then the additional END goes away, and you have 30 END as your total. You can't use or Recover the +x END portion, it doesn't exist just as if it were a slot in a Multipower with no points of the pool allocated to it. Your END Characteristic is currently 30. As soon as you turn off the limiting Power, the +x END returns and you have a 30+x END Characteristic once more. Now you can recover up to a total of 30+x whereas before you were capped at 30.

 

The additional +x actually changes the value of the Characteristic just as if you'd bought STR or ED or any other Characteristic. You just have to purchase it separate from the rest of your END because it's the actual amount that will have the Limitation.

 

 

 

That probably works for 1 power.  What if the character has 5 of these?

But there's something similar you can do.  HD doesn't allow -5 END, for -1 point.  But, you CAN do a Custom Power that does it.  So the powers that work this way, get built as a compound power, with the custom power of -X END as the other part.  

Another option in HD...a custom adder.  List as -X END, and price as per normal END costs.  I do this for weapons with Reach...+1 point as an adder, for +1m Reach.  THAT behaves properly.  A custom adder in HD *can* have a negative value.  The difference would be that an adder adjusts the base cost, which is then modified by advantages and limitations.  Odds are...NOT by much, and it's a lot neater.  Compound powers clutter up character sheets QUICKLY.  (EDIT:  for a mental entangle, I also do additional Mental Def this way, with a custom adder.  Probably 1 or 2 others not immediately coming to mind.  It's a handy approach in HD.)

 

This isn't worth a limitation, as that scales with the active points...and END is far, far too cheap for that.  

[dmjalund]

7 hours ago, DentArthurDent said:

Wow! I really like this concept. 
 

If I understand it correctly, it feels like the caster is sending out her own Mana (or Spirit or …) to create a protective flame aura (or cocoon or …). Then when she retrieves her Mana (or …) the aura dissipates. 
 

In a mana of speaking