Jump to content

Character Stats & Differentiation - Help & Thoughts Requested


greypaladin_01

Recommended Posts

Ok... very basic and likely silly question but something that I run into whenever I try to work with HERO in a non-supers capacity.  I am hoping that you all might have some insights to help me re-align my thinking.

With Champions, the statistics spread for characters tends to be a bit broader as well as having powers that help differentiate characters from each other fairly easily.   However, whenever I sit down to work at the Heroic level  (specifically trying to work on a fantasy hero game for a friend) I am finding that the characters tend to really look similar due to Normal Characteristics Maxima.   For example Stats in Heroic level HERO tend to fall into the 10-20 range...but mechanically there is very little difference between those.   (we are talking 11- vs 13- rolls and the like.   There is a math difference but not HUGE.)   Compared to something like D&D where between 10-20 in a stat gives between +0 to +5 modifiers.   

In my mind, this keeps feeling like a flaw... making the warrior, mage, archer and rogue tend to look VERY similar to each other.   I am hoping that there is something I am missing here.... a different perspective that will help make this feel more open than it currently does.


I have been trying on and off to get something FH going since the 4th edition days...specifically because I want something NOT D&D but still fantasy.   However my brain gets a bit stuck here and on not getting caught in D&D-think.   Sorry for the ranting question... hopefully people here can help break my Train of Thought out of this loop. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You do need to take into account when making skill rolls that you are doing so with 3 dice, which gives you a distribution curve rather than the flat probability result you get from a single 20-sided die.  Statistically speaking, there is a bigger step between 12- and 13- than there is between 11- and 12-.  A 14- isn't a guarantee, but highly probable, while an 8- is highly improbable.

 

The other thing about skills is that Hero has skill levels, while D&D is based on just your Characteristic scores (skill is rolled into levels).  This makes Hero more realistic and more flexible.  So don't just consider Characteristics when looking at different characters, but also the number of skill levels they have.  That makes a huge difference in how the character will play.

 

The actual characteristic scores for a character in D&D or in Hero are both typically going to be between 8 and 20.  A warrior-type will have higher score in STR, the wizard in INT, the rogue in DEX.  From that standpoint, you have the same variation in both games.  It is just that in Hero you will use skills to differentiate your characters, and because Hero is WAY more flexible with skills, you can customize your character to be anything you want rather than another D&D paladin clone or wizard clone that are nearly indistinguishable from each other.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do understand the bell curve for skill checks.  I know that all skill checks get a dizzying set of positive and negative modifiers, especially in the Heroic level, but that is a whole different set of issues.

What it sounds like you are saying though is to not worry so much about the statistics themselves because all the difference between characters will be focused more on Skills and Skill level purchases.   I can wrap my brain around that... although from a balancing standpoint, I question where the limits of this should normally end up.   It feels that it could very easily get out of control quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Talents and martial arts can make a big difference.  And specialization.  That's why I have spent a lot of time in my campaign coming up with enough really interesting, attractive, and exciting things to draw point spends, which makes people have to be more specific and narrow in their builds, creating specialization.  So yeah, you can all have 13-17 DEX which is a 1 point difference in rolls, but what you do with those rolls are more significant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember that the number of points are a lot LOWER.  I made some NPCs at 150 pts, then some at 125 pts.  It may seem a small amount, and in a Champions game it is, ( 325/350 is 93%), but at that lower level it is HUGE (125/150 is 83%).

 

So you make a thief

Dex 18 (24)

Spd 3 (-4)

Int 13 (3)

PD 5 (3)

ED 5  (3)

Skills

Stealth (3)

Conceal (3)

Climb (3)

Breakfall (3)

Pick Locks (3)

Security System (3)

Paramedic (3)

Shadowing (3)

Streetwise (3)

WF (2)

Combat Skill Levels (5 to 10)

Contact (3)

Favour (3)

 

So very basic costs 69 to 74 points.  

 

Now at 125 pts you have about 50 pts to spend.  Languages, riding, TF, Knowledges, Prof Skills.  Believe me it disappears Fast!

 

At 150 you have 75 pts.  A little more room.

 

 

Edited by Mr. R
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mr. R has nailed it on the head.  Although the stats are more important in Hero than in D & D it is in the skillsets that the player chooses for their character that the differences occur. Two wizards (D&D) of the same stats and experience points, created 20 years  and 4000 km. apart will play almost identical. Two Hero wizards of the same stats created by the same person but with different skillsets will play completely different. That is Hero's biggest strength.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In games like D&D and Pathfinder your characteristics are more important at early levels, but after you start gaining levels their impact on the game diminishes and your class abilities start to make more difference.  For example, in pathfinder if I have a first level elven wizard with and 18 STR vs a fighter with a 10 STR the elven wizard will probably defeat the fighter.  The +4 to hit and damage from STR gives the wizard the advantage.  But as the characters gain levels the wizard quickly falls behind.  By 4th level the fighter has gained enough BAB and feats  and extra HP that the odds are now with the fighter.  With Fantasy Hero characters start out stronger than other games, but don’t progress as quickly. Starting Fantasy Hero characters are closer to mid-level characters than starting characters in other systems. 

 

The other thing to consider is how the stats define the character.  In other games any character can usually use any weapon they know how no matter what their STR score is.  In Pathfinder for example I can have a 10 STR and use a bastard sword.  I may not get the bonus to hit and damage, but I can use the sword.  In Fantasy Hero weapons have STR min you need to meet or you take penalties to hit.  To use a bastard sword in Fantasy Hero requires a 13 STR if used in two hands or a 15 STR if used in one hand. 

 

If you are playing in an earlier edition the higher base damage allows you to achieve a higher max damage.  Prior to 6th edition damage for KA was capped at twice the base damage.  This is recommended in 6th edition Fantasy Hero as well. Your 10 STR character in Fantasy Hero would be limited to using a short sword and doing 2d6 damage with skill level and martial arts.  Your 15 STR character could use a bastard sword one handed and do a max damage of 3d6.  If you have a 17 STR you could use a greatsword for 2d6 damage and max damage of 4d6.   An extra die or two may not seem significant but in the Hero system it is really is.  

 

The other thing you are not factoring is that the Hero System has a lot more stats than the D20 based games.  In those you have 6 stats; in Hero you have about 20 depending on the edition.  When you look at all the stats you are going to get a lot more variance than if you are only considering a few.  DCV is going to be a lot more important to the lightly armored warrior than the one in full plate and shield.  Many heavily armored warriors favor blocking over dodging so don’t need the same level of DCV as the light warrior.  To them OCV is more important.  
 

As to the balance Fantasy Hero is better balanced than most other systems.  By design a point-based system is all about balance.  You pretty much pay for everything you can do.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that @LoneWolf is right.  A lot of your problem might be what you are focussing on. There are few differences in the numbers in many characters statistics and, if you are using the standard character sheet, then those numbers take up a lot of prime real estate on the character sheet (top left of the page).

 

I am a keen advocate of bespoke character sheets for play - which make it more likely that the sheet emphasises what is different between characters rather than all the things that are pretty much the same.  It can be a little bit of work to design a sheet but it pays off at the table (the provided sheet is a useful reference for building the character and may be needed for very specific point cost stuff that come up from time to time).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also STAT points are more of a help if you load up on a lot of skills that use that stat, but stat points are less useful if you only have one skill that use that stat

The wiz may have a high INT for all the INT skills to go with RSR on there magic but the wiz could just go for skill levels for RSR for magic and grab some, oh, CONTACTs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@greypaladin_01, funny you should ask because I was just messing with character conversions from D&D to Fantasy. As you know a 10 CON in a D&D game isn’t that bad however a 10 CON in Hero even Heroic level is not desired. I was thinking for those type characters they could by + CON only vs. STUN, probably -1/4 at best. And only buy enough to get to a reasonable level too. This way the 10 CON has still a crappy roll if he has to make his CON Roll but a little more capable in a fight.

 

The other issue is that STR seems to be fairly similar in most characters. So of that has to do with STR Min. of weapons. I don’t have a problem with doing less damage but (and I’ll gladly be corrected) is the Negative OCV that’s tacked on. And even that isn’t so bad if it wasn’t tacked on if you are even one point less than STR Min.  I personally would just have the STR Min. Penalty go in effect a full 5 STR less not a fraction of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keep in mind that Normal Characteristic Maxima are not a hard and fast limit, merely a boundary beyond which Characteristics cost more. A GM is also not obligated to apply them to his heroic-level characters. When you look at Conan or Tarzan or Doc Savage, they clearly exceed what even well-trained athletes are capable of. Because they're heroes. ;)

 

For comparison purposes, note that in the Champions genre book for superhero gaming, it suggests limits above NCM for human characters, beyond which they should be considered "superhuman," and have some setting-appropriate justification for how they became so exceptional. For example, that book sets the upper limit for humanly-possible STR, DEX, CON, and BODY at 30, SPD at 7, and INT, EGO, and PRE at 50.

 

In a fantasy game there can be plenty of justifications for a character to have Characteristics beyond the Maxima: barbarian or feral upbringing, enchantment or enchanted items, nonhuman or divine blood, training in esoteric disciplines, exposure to mind-expanding secret knowledge, etc.

Edited by Lord Liaden
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, STR is the only stat we have that you can objectively quantify in the Hero system.  Some people try to treat INT as if its IQ (x10) but that's not really how INT works in Hero.  You can be incredibly brilliant but have a low INT in Hero: it represents memory, perception, and how fast you think more than it does how actually smart you are.  A lot of really REALLY smart people are very meticulous and systematic in their thinking, barely are aware of the world around them, and have terrible memories.

 

At present, the most any human being has managed to "usually just manage lift off the ground, stagger a step or two, then drop" as the rules put it (basically deadlift) without a belt or other equipment is currently 487 kilograms which is roughly 22 STR.  The thing is, I don't know a lot of GMs who even run STR that way.  They run STR as what you can press over your head safely with a lot of effort, and the "most you can possibly pick up then drop" as pushed STR.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Generally its the skills and backgrounds that differentiate the characters, Stats will be similar unless someone wants to be "the strong man" or the "Sharp shooter", or the "Martial Artist." But then you see in the old movies that all the heroes were about the same body type, and nearly interchangeable, except the protagonist had that one talent, or bucket of PRE that made him the leader.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think that @LoneWolf is right.  A lot of your problem might be what you are focussing on. There are few differences in the numbers in many characters statistics and, if you are using the standard character sheet, then those numbers take up a lot of prime real estate on the character sheet (top left of the page).

 

I am a keen advocate of bespoke character sheets for play - which make it more likely that the sheet emphasises what is different between characters rather than all the things that are pretty much the same.  It can be a little bit of work to design a sheet but it pays off at the table (the provided sheet is a useful reference for building the character and may be needed for very specific point cost stuff that come up from time to time).

 

These are all very good points, and much of what I was looking for assistance in.   The mentality for Fantasy Hero is very different from D&D or Champions... perhaps more than I even realized.

 

I am not familiar with "Bespoke Character Sheets"  can you clarify?

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Keep in mind that Normal Characteristic Maxima are not a hard and fast limit, merely a boundary beyond which Characteristics cost more. A GM is also not obligated to apply them to his heroic-level characters. When you look at Conan or Tarzan or Doc Savage, they clearly exceed what even well-trained athletes are capable of. Because they're heroes. ;)

 

For comparison purposes, note that in the Champions genre book for superhero gaming, it suggests limits above NCM for human characters, beyond which they should be considered "superhuman," and have some setting-appropriate justification for how they became so exceptional. For example, that book sets the upper limit for humanly-possible STR, DEX, CON, and BODY at 30, SPD at 7, and INT, EGO, and PRE at 50.

 

In a fantasy game there can be plenty of justifications for a character to have Characteristics beyond the Maxima: barbarian or feral upbringing, enchantment or enchanted items, nonhuman or divine blood, training in esoteric disciplines, exposure to mind-expanding secret knowledge, etc.

 

This is very true and there is nothing to stop a GM from changing them for races, or across the board.   However, doing away with them completely feels like it leads to Fantasy Champions more than Fantasy Hero.   Fun..but not what I am looking for.

 

Has anyone had experience with changing the maxima in play?   How did that work?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

 

Has anyone had experience with changing the maxima in play?   How did that work?

 

I've played in fantasy games where we did away with NCM altogether, but I admit that was for high-level fantasy (albeit not quite "Fantasy Champions"), which I personally love. So I'm probably not the best to answer that question. ;)

 

OTOH I've also played in games where we followed the advice from Hero's The Valdorian Age campaign book for sword-and-sorcery play, and lowered the starting Characteristics for PCs that are tens, down to eight like the mere mortals. That promoted a more down-to-earth feel to the characters at the start, and made the spread up to NCM more meaningful.

 

But in play, whatever the game mechanics say Characteristics should cost is less important than the maximums the GM sets for what PCs can attain, in CV, Damage Classes, total Defences, etc. That's the real trick to balancing characters with each other and their opponents. NCM often just means that players can't afford to build their PCs the way they want to at the start, and that it takes them longer to get to that point.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The way the group I game with handles stats is that any characteristic gained from a racial template increases both the stat and the maximum.  Basically, we treat them as a power rather than a characteristic.  If you use Hero Designer and put the added the racial adjustments under powers instead of characteristics, you are not charged double when you go over the normal maximum.  This allows a little more variance in characteristics.  With this each race has the same spread for characteristics, but still has some differences.   A strong Orc is going to be stronger than a strong human.  

 

Unfortunately, you cannot set the characteristics to negative in the power section of Hero Designer.  You can lower the characteristic under the characteristic tab and also manually adjust the Maximum on the Campaign Rules.  Since it is extremely rare for a character to exceed a lowered maximum, this is probably not a big deal.  Maybe if Simon sees this, he could add an option to lower characteristics in the powers section.  That would make it easier to create racial templates.  
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

I am not familiar with "Bespoke Character Sheets"  can you clarify?

 

I had a look, not uploaded any Fantasy HERO sheets.   I did the sheets on this link using PowerPoint, looking for ways to play Justice Inc, Danger International and Champions with sheets designed to highlight the genre rather than the distemper but giving players the information they need to play the game.

 

Have a look, would be pretty simple to do the same for Fantasy HERO characters.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

 

These are all very good points, and much of what I was looking for assistance in.   The mentality for Fantasy Hero is very different from D&D or Champions... perhaps more than I even realized.

 

Oh the mentality is very different, because there is no "Zero to (Super)Hero" progression. Fantasy Hero characters, like Champions characters don't become more powerful over time, but become more versatile.  I Always despair about people trying to emulate D&D mechanics, especially Vancian Magic in Fantasy Hero, when you really can match other literary or cultural magical traditions from other sources. Also without class distinctions, characters can differentiate on much finer degrees, not to mention making tuned custom racial packages.

 

13 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

 

 

This is very true and there is nothing to stop a GM from changing them for races, or across the board.   However, doing away with them completely feels like it leads to Fantasy Champions more than Fantasy Hero.   Fun..but not what I am looking for.

 

Has anyone had experience with changing the maxima in play?   How did that work?

 

I never used NCM> It wasn't a thing when I started, but on the other hand I had 150 point max back then. But this was during the 2e and 3e days of FH. The Campaign lasted for about 20 years (until I screwed up).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Oh the mentality is very different, because there is no "Zero to (Super)Hero" progression. Fantasy Hero characters, like Champions characters don't become more powerful over time, but become more versatile. 

 

I noticed that sometimes in my fantasy hero campaigns, people didn't even care how much experience they got; it was not about advancement and getting more powerful, it was about the story and the adventures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I've never done this for a fantasy game, for Champions I have followed the advice of Theron Bretz from an old Digital Hero article, "Pointless Champions." Don't worry about point totals or AP caps or balancing PCs with each other, just have the players build their PCs to concept, the way they want them to be. As GM you just have to give them all their time to shine. Make sure every character has some abilities, a certain specialty, that no other PCs have, and build in opportunities at some point for them to use those abilities in a meaningful way. That's how, for example, Hawkeye gets to contribute on the same team as Thor. ;)

 

PC progression can manifest as them acquiring Perks, losing Complications, or sometimes gaining new or refined abilities, when there's a story-based reason for them to do so, not just when they've got the Character Points to buy them.

Edited by Lord Liaden
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I had a look, not uploaded any Fantasy HERO sheets.   I did the sheets on this link using PowerPoint, looking for ways to play Justice Inc, Danger International and Champions with sheets designed to highlight the genre rather than the distemper but giving players the information they need to play the game.

 

Have a look, would be pretty simple to do the same for Fantasy HERO characters.

 

 

I have never seen anything like this before.  I *think* I can see how the official info translates to the picture sheet.   I do think there is some definite potential as a tool to help people learn.   Was there an article or something talking about how to utilize these... or just something you made?

 

10 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Oh the mentality is very different, because there is no "Zero to (Super)Hero" progression. Fantasy Hero characters, like Champions characters don't become more powerful over time, but become more versatile.  I Always despair about people trying to emulate D&D mechanics, especially Vancian Magic in Fantasy Hero, when you really can match other literary or cultural magical traditions from other sources. Also without class distinctions, characters can differentiate on much finer degrees, not to mention making tuned custom racial packages.

 

 

Very much this is an issue for me.   I am aware of it and trying to flex my brain more, but I have 30+ years of Pulp Fantasy/D&D style power progression in my brain.  

It feels that for FH to work you need the GM to be thinking different, but also the players.   If they are trying for D&D it will have difficulties as well

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, greypaladin_01 said:

I have never seen anything like this before.  I *think* I can see how the official info translates to the picture sheet.   I do think there is some definite potential as a tool to help people learn.   Was there an article or something talking about how to utilize these... or just something you made?

 

It is something I do now for any game I intend to run.  It doesn't take too long and I get the sheets I want.

 

It is my conceit that character sheets are how the players interface with the game, the window into the setting and system.  I think most character sheets provided with RPGs are there to help players create characters, what I term "build sheets", rather than encourage them to play characters in the game to be run. 

 

I sat down and thought "what do my players "need" to play the game?", stripping away detail and numbers and putting in text and flavour I wanted my players to be looking at and thinking about.

 

I found it has given me a different perception about the system, helped me see the toolkit much better as just that, confidence to hide stuff the players probably won't care about.  It definitely made a difference to how my players engaged with the game.

 

In one instance I decided to present the system to look like D20.  All tasks required players to roll 10 or over to succeed in tasks and all skills presented as an adjustment to the roll (Bureaucracy +3).  That helped a lot of players to transition.

 

Doc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...