So Many Statistic Check Systems!

[greypaladin_01]

Part of my current side project is reading through older editions of HERO and reworking things to be easier for my newer generation players to understand.   In doing so I am refreshing my own memory on how HERO works... and one thing I noticed is there are SO many different systems for how different Statistics Checks work.   I am thinking over changing/streamlining some and would like to pick everyone's brains.  

There are 4 types of checks that I can find in the HERO system when dealing with Statistic oriented checks:

 

1 - Skill Rolls:  Not something I am dealing with in this post.

2- Characteristic Rolls: non-skill checks that resolve with skill like check using raw stats.   Examples:  DEX compared rolls for Initiative Ties, EGO rolls for Psych Lims or Shaking Mind Control

3 - Mental Stat Related Rolls:  Things like Mental Powers or PRE Attacks.  Resolved by rolling d6s and adding up the full total of dice and then comparing them to targets relavent stat for success level

4 - STR contests:  Such as Grab contests or Casual STR, Resolved by rolling d6s and only adding up the BODY pips then comparing for results.

 

There might be others that I have not come across again but it seems like alot of systems for teaching.   My GF even commented on it during a solo game about why STR has a roll for some things but Dice Contest for another.

 

Solutions/Discussions:   While there is a { if not broke, don't fix it} attitude that could be taken.  I feel that there is room here for tweaks that would reduce at least some of the systems for learning the game.   I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this matter but I have this half-baked idea so far that I am working on.
 

Characteristic Rolls:  I would like to remove these completely and replace with something similar to the STR contest system of BODY pip comparisons.    This would also help bring up this system beyond just damage.  I like games that have repeated systems, it helps to reinforce things for players.   At first I considered trying to work up something where it is adding the dice like how Mental Powers or PRE attacks work, but that feels like it would lead to TOO much variation even between matching dice.

 

Any thoughts on a system like this being implemented?   Other than being "different" can anyone spot any flaws with using this system to resolve Characteristic Contests?

 

 

[DentArthurDent]

I’ve started sneaking in “count the BODY” rolls in place of characteristic vs. characteristic rolls. There are noticeably more ties. Which leads to a lot more theatrical, nose to nose, sweat rolling down the face, never back down, confrontations. By the time we get to the third tie-breaker roll everyone is cheering on their teammate.

[unclevlad]

Every system has the notion of contested rolls versus uncontested rolls.  An uncontested roll is when you're dealing with a static effect...a specific, unchanging instance.  There is nothing actively opposing you, so your success or failure is predicated strictly on your performance, and the difficulty of overcoming this particular effect.  A contested roll is when this isn't the case...when someone else is dynamically opposing you.

 

Can you solve this puzzle?  Uncontested.

Can you solve the puzzle before your arch rival does?  Contested.

 

STR stuff generally is checking BODY...but this is because defenses are BODY-related.  A wall with 10 DEF and 10 BODY...it doesn't care about STUN pips.  OTOH, mental and adjustment powers don't care about BODY pips, they're total level.  

 

I'm not fond of counting BODY routinely on a very small number of dice.  I'll grant that the scaling is somewhat similar...5 points gives +1 die, or +1 to the roll...but the result range is far too small, and far, far too variable.  The standard deviation of BODY pips for 3d6 is 1;  that's way, way too high.  

[DentArthurDent]

True, the standard deviation is 1. But that doesn’t tell the whole story.

 

Two characters with the same Strength - Alice and Bob both with a strength of 15 - will have a 28% chance of a tie (each Phase) during an arm wrestling contest if they compare the Body on 3d6.
That’s much better than the 9% chance of a tie each Phase rolling 3d6 comparing Characteristic rolls.

 

And if we use the convention that it takes two standard deviations for a significant result, then Alice would have to win by two Body in order to pin Bob. Needing to win by 2 and counting Body on 3d6 means a tie 72% of the time each Phase.

Now we get to see two characters - with identical Strength - struggle and sweat for two or three Phases before one of them yells out in pain and frustration!
 

[greypaladin_01]

And while STR is often checking BODY for damage in the case of combat.  It is also used in the Roll BODY format when seeing if someone has escaped from a Grab.   As mentioned above, this makes for a more involved and interactive moment in play, as well as giving a more visible difference when having characters with different STR facing off.   

Other than STR contests for Grabs and DEX contests for initiative, I am trying to think of any other contested Core Stat use in the game.   PRE attacks have their own system which for gameplay speed will probably be left the same... it would be FAR too slow for each defender of a PRE attack have to roll their own opposed checks for resisting.   Can anyone else think of contested Stat use in HERO?

3 hours ago, DentArthurDent said:

I’ve started sneaking in “count the BODY” rolls in place of characteristic vs. characteristic rolls. There are noticeably more ties. Which leads to a lot more theatrical, nose to nose, sweat rolling down the face, never back down, confrontations. By the time we get to the third tie-breaker roll everyone is cheering on their teammate.

 

yes something much like this is what I was thinking.  Both to help make the contests more engaging for players, but also to help make Trained Skills (and skill contests) FEEL different from general Opposed Statistic checks.

 

[unclevlad]

Oh, I'd HATE!!! doing this in skill vs. skill contests.  First, what trained skills end up resulting in a skill contest?  Not many, and not often.  Take a case where A has concealed something, and B is searching for it.  This is not a skill contest as I think of it, but the rules do.  You roll A's Concealment, and use that as a modifier on B's roll.  See 6E1 57.

 

That actually brings up that modifiers are based on standard skill rolls, not on some funky BODY-based manipulations.  Plus, now you're introducing another factor...oh, is this a standard skill check, or a funky one where BODY's in play?  Strikes me that you're doing the exact opposite of simplifying/streamlining.  

 

If you want the contest to run 2-3 rounds, fine.  Make it an extended contest.  First to get +5 total advantage.  A makes roll by 2, B fails roll by 2...A's at +4.  Next roll, A makes by 1, B makes by 3.  A's at +2.  And so on.  This has a more dynamic feel to me anyway.

 

But these are very rare.  The most common would probably be grapple vs. escape...and that's counting BODY anyway.  IF you're using cyber combat, ok, Comp Programming vs. Comp Programming...in Matrix combat, very definitely contested checks.  Be careful here tho:  this commonly involves only one player.  From time to time, sure, it's cool, but it can *easily* be overused and become stale and boring.  

[Cloppy Clip]

If it's all right to go a little off-topic, I'm interested by that mention of eliminating characteristic rolls, greypaladin_01, assuming you didn't just mean in the context of contests. If you want to strive for consistency in resolution mechanics, which I think is definitely a laudable goal (if not one HERO is necessarily concerned with as-written), then using the 'roll and count BODY' method for uncontested rolls would make sense.

 

I haven't gone through this thoroughly, so I'm just playing around here, but a target number-based system seems obvious. Roll as if the characteristic were STR, add up the BODY, and compare to a number based on the difficulty of the task. You could match the difficulty to the number of dice rolled by someone of the equivalent skill, so average difficulty would be 2+, as someone with an average characteristic of 10 would roll 2d6. This would let you benchmark higher or lower difficulties fairly quickly in-game, as you'd just have to imagine the rough level of character you'd see taking on each task.

 

You could even keep modifiers to the roll in for circumstances that affect performance by adding or subtracting dice. Although, thinking about it, it might be more elegant to work everything off the difficulty number, so you only have one axis to keep track of. It's a personal preference thing, like so much of this, I guess.

 

The main thing to watch out for would be RSR and Power rolls. The HERO skill system is fairly loose so you can tinker with it without too much trouble, but there's a lot more going on with the powers side of things, so you might need to keep an eye out for how changes to skill rolls affect powers that depend on them. Like I said, I haven't had a proper look at this, but crunching some quick numbers for 60 AP powers (so a -6 with the baseline rules) seems to indicate that a difficulty of 2 + 1 per 10 Active Points should get you similar results. But don't hold me to that!

 

Sorry if this isn't what you had in mind for your post, but it was an interesting idea to me (even if I don't use it in my own games), so thank you for giving me the chance to play around in this space.

[Joe Walsh]

15 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

Characteristic Rolls:  I would like to remove these completely and replace with something similar to the STR contest system of BODY pip comparisons.    This would also help bring up this system beyond just damage.  I like games that have repeated systems, it helps to reinforce things for players.   At first I considered trying to work up something where it is adding the dice like how Mental Powers or PRE attacks work, but that feels like it would lead to TOO much variation even between matching dice.

 

Any thoughts on a system like this being implemented?   Other than being "different" can anyone spot any flaws with using this system to resolve Characteristic Contests?

 

How would you handle Perception rolls?

[greypaladin_01]

9 hours ago, Joe Walsh said:

 

How would you handle Perception rolls?

 

Currently I would be treating them as Skills not Characteristics checks.   However that is also because I am looking at de-coupling Perception from INT entirely and making it something along the lines of 11- equivalent base and then purchase it higher based on concept.   While I understand the baseline logic of INT/Perception, I can think of so many examples in fiction of "smart but unobservant" in fiction that I would rather treat it as it's own thing.

 

 

17 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

If it's all right to go a little off-topic, I'm interested by that mention of eliminating characteristic rolls, greypaladin_01, assuming you didn't just mean in the context of contests. If you want to strive for consistency in resolution mechanics, which I think is definitely a laudable goal (if not one HERO is necessarily concerned with as-written), then using the 'roll and count BODY' method for uncontested rolls would make sense.

 

I haven't gone through this thoroughly, so I'm just playing around here, but a target number-based system seems obvious. Roll as if the characteristic were STR, add up the BODY, and compare to a number based on the difficulty of the task. You could match the difficulty to the number of dice rolled by someone of the equivalent skill, so average difficulty would be 2+, as someone with an average characteristic of 10 would roll 2d6. This would let you benchmark higher or lower difficulties fairly quickly in-game, as you'd just have to imagine the rough level of character you'd see taking on each task.

 

You could even keep modifiers to the roll in for circumstances that affect performance by adding or subtracting dice. Although, thinking about it, it might be more elegant to work everything off the difficulty number, so you only have one axis to keep track of. It's a personal preference thing, like so much of this, I guess.

 

The main thing to watch out for would be RSR and Power rolls. The HERO skill system is fairly loose so you can tinker with it without too much trouble, but there's a lot more going on with the powers side of things, so you might need to keep an eye out for how changes to skill rolls affect powers that depend on them. Like I said, I haven't had a proper look at this, but crunching some quick numbers for 60 AP powers (so a -6 with the baseline rules) seems to indicate that a difficulty of 2 + 1 per 10 Active Points should get you similar results. But don't hold me to that!

 

Sorry if this isn't what you had in mind for your post, but it was an interesting idea to me (even if I don't use it in my own games), so thank you for giving me the chance to play around in this space.

 

Thank you for your input!   The draft I am working up does rework skills into a Difficulty Target Number style system with additive rolls for ease of flow.   Once I have it more fully fleshed out and some of these other points I mentioned up, I intend to post a thread for review and feedback.  

I am not expecting to be able to streamline HERO into a "one mechanic" system, nor do I want that.  I am simply looking to consolidate a few disparate systems together where I can and rework the flow of the math for some others to make it easier to teach newer players. 

[greypaladin_01]

18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Oh, I'd HATE!!! doing this in skill vs. skill contests.  First, what trained skills end up resulting in a skill contest?  Not many, and not often.  Take a case where A has concealed something, and B is searching for it.  This is not a skill contest as I think of it, but the rules do.  You roll A's Concealment, and use that as a modifier on B's roll.  See 6E1 57.

 

But these are very rare.  The most common would probably be grapple vs. escape...and that's counting BODY anyway.  IF you're using cyber combat, ok, Comp Programming vs. Comp Programming...in Matrix combat, very definitely contested checks.  Be careful here tho:  this commonly involves only one player.  From time to time, sure, it's cool, but it can *easily* be overused and become stale and boring.  

 

I agree.  This is not for Skill checks, I have a different tweak (just reworking of how the math formulas are displayed really) for those.  I am simply looking for changing up things when pure stat contests are in place.   Honestly I am struggling to really think beyond STR and DEX contests which others would even really have a need.  But this is part of why I feel some of the mechanics really could use a few look overs.

Champions/HERO is a rich and detailed system, that still operates on the same core mechanics from 1982ish era of the game.  There is certainly room for tweaks to streamline.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Now we get to see two characters - with identical Strength - struggle and sweat for two or three Phases before one of them yells out in pain and frustration!

 

I always figured one roll represented more time than a single phase of action, myself.  Its up to the GM to describe the give and take and struggles that take place.

[greypaladin_01]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I always figured one roll represented more time than a single phase of action, myself.  Its up to the GM to describe the give and take and struggles that take place.

 

I see it as dependent on the situation and level of drama needed.  Somethings can be simulated in 1 roll, and may or may not take extended time.

Other things like Grab Holds/Escapes can run for several phases in combat.     Or if you want to do something in a more dynamic way, then several contested rolls can work well for that, and help paint the story as it goes.

[Joe Walsh]

13 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

Currently I would be treating them as Skills not Characteristics checks.   However that is also because I am looking at de-coupling Perception from INT entirely and making it something along the lines of 11- equivalent base and then purchase it higher based on concept.   While I understand the baseline logic of INT/Perception, I can think of so many examples in fiction of "smart but unobservant" in fiction that I would rather treat it as it's own thing.

 

Interesting! What would the roll be for someone who didn't purchase the Skill?

 

 

13 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

Thank you for your input!   The draft I am working up does rework skills into a Difficulty Target Number style system with additive rolls for ease of flow.   Once I have it more fully fleshed out and some of these other points I mentioned up, I intend to post a thread for review and feedback.  

I am not expecting to be able to streamline HERO into a "one mechanic" system, nor do I want that.  I am simply looking to consolidate a few disparate systems together where I can and rework the flow of the math for some others to make it easier to teach newer players. 

 

I look forward to seeing your completed system! I've tinkered with changes to the mechanics over the years, but so far I haven't come up with anything worth adopting.

[Cloppy Clip]

14 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

Thank you for your input!   The draft I am working up does rework skills into a Difficulty Target Number style system with additive rolls for ease of flow.   Once I have it more fully fleshed out and some of these other points I mentioned up, I intend to post a thread for review and feedback.  

I am not expecting to be able to streamline HERO into a "one mechanic" system, nor do I want that.  I am simply looking to consolidate a few disparate systems together where I can and rework the flow of the math for some others to make it easier to teach newer players. 

 

Oh, I certainly went off the rails a bit there, and I agree you don't need to take things as far as that! That was mostly me spitballing ideas because I wanted to see how they turned out, and if anything would turn out useful to anyone that'd be an extra bonus. Your changes do sound interesting, though, so if you get anything pulled together I'd love to read them.

[greypaladin_01]

15 hours ago, Joe Walsh said:

 

Interesting! What would the roll be for someone who didn't purchase the Skill?

 

 

 

I look forward to seeing your completed system! I've tinkered with changes to the mechanics over the years, but so far I haven't come up with anything worth adopting.

 

The way I see it is Perception would be treated as an Everyman skills.  So everyone gets it at the equivalent of the 8- for free, then if you purchase it goes up to 11- and then increased from there.   

 

14 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

 

Oh, I certainly went off the rails a bit there, and I agree you don't need to take things as far as that! That was mostly me spitballing ideas because I wanted to see how they turned out, and if anything would turn out useful to anyone that'd be an extra bonus. Your changes do sound interesting, though, so if you get anything pulled together I'd love to read them.

 

 

Thank you both!   I am taking the feed back from here and putting it and my other thoughts into some rough drafts for now.   Hopefully I'll have the early draft for review up sometime soon.

[unclevlad]

19 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

 

The way I see it is Perception would be treated as an Everyman skills.  So everyone gets it at the equivalent of the 8- for free, then if you purchase it goes up to 11- and then increased from there.   
 

 

You're just forcing me to throw points away to remain even.  If you want to do this?  Make it a Physical Complication.  Characters NEED to make PER rolls, if someone wants that Blithering Idiot, well, it's a shtick that gets REALLY old, REALLY fast...most of the time it's not so much a point of characterization, but a power trip for the player, forcing the party to cater to him.  But if it's really legit, fine...take it as a complication that gives a couple extra points to that character, rather than force most players to spend points just to get back to even.  Or, allow Bad Vision:  -1 to Normal Sight PER.  -1 point.  Or whatever.  Figure what senses you want it to apply to, then figure out the total cost if you were giving +1...and that's the cost for -1.  Also:  I'd almost never allow this for touch or taste, and probably rarely for smell.  How often do those PER rolls crop up?  It's way too likely that this is pure min-maxing.

 

Quote

While I understand the baseline logic of INT/Perception, I can think of so many examples in fiction of "smart but unobservant" in fiction that I would rather treat it as it's own thing.

 

Be VERY, VERY careful of how you process fictional material.  Who says they're really all that smart?  Is it a failure to perceive, or a failure to interpret...those aren't necessarily the same, and I think, far more often, it's the latter.  If you want academic-smart, buy less of a baseline INT and something like It's also plot device, and almost always, IMO, grossly exaggerated.  

 

If you want good INT skills but not-so-good PER, then buy a more moderate INT, and +1 with all INT skills.  Those levels do NOT apply to PER.  This can, sometimes, be a pain...because those levels also don't apply to background skills.  But, if that's the case, then use the "Inhibited Perception" notion from above.  

 

[Sketchpad]

It's an interesting idea. Skills could be easy enough to implement in as an adder to the effects. You may want to use a Difficulty system, like needing 6 successes (aka BODY) to achieve a moderate action. Skills could add to this, or even add more dice into the check. So if you have a INT 15, rolling 3d6 for the roll, but also have Deduction 3, this may add 3 more dice in, rolling 6d6 when making Deduction checks. 

[unclevlad]

30 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

It's an interesting idea. Skills could be easy enough to implement in as an adder to the effects. You may want to use a Difficulty system, like needing 6 successes (aka BODY) to achieve a moderate action. Skills could add to this, or even add more dice into the check. So if you have a INT 15, rolling 3d6 for the roll, but also have Deduction 3, this may add 3 more dice in, rolling 6d6 when making Deduction checks. 

 

I'm hearing far too much complication for the sake of very little gain.  You'd have a totally different system.  The roll's based on Target Number OR LESS, so how would adding dice even work?  What's the target number, how does a characteristic play into it?  If the skill check stays the same and you have to make multiple checks, that slows play down tremendously.

 

I've played Storyteller, Shadowrun, and some L5R with exploding dice and Roll X, Keep Y.  I'm not entirely convinced any of them are an *improvement*...and all of them use notably different underpinnings.  Some of em might even make really good supers systems, if you strip out the genre stuff and use the supers environment of your choice.  (Golden Age, SIlver Age, more modern comic, urban fantasy generally, or a specific supers universe from a book series, as most have their quirks.)  But I don't want to cobble an approach from any of them, into a structure that wasn't intended to use it.

 

  

[greypaladin_01]

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

You're just forcing me to throw points away to remain even.  If you want to do this?  Make it a Physical Complication.  Characters NEED to make PER rolls, if someone wants that Blithering Idiot, well, it's a shtick that gets REALLY old, REALLY fast...most of the time it's not so much a point of characterization, but a power trip for the player, forcing the party to cater to him.  But if it's really legit, fine...take it as a complication that gives a couple extra points to that character, rather than force most players to spend points just to get back to even.  Or, allow Bad Vision:  -1 to Normal Sight PER.  -1 point.  Or whatever.  Figure what senses you want it to apply to, then figure out the total cost if you were giving +1...and that's the cost for -1.  Also:  I'd almost never allow this for touch or taste, and probably rarely for smell.  How often do those PER rolls crop up?  It's way too likely that this is pure min-maxing.

 

I would argue that it 'forces' throwing away points no more than 6th edition having removed Figured Characteristics are requiring them to be bought from a base level now.   Or separating out Offensive and Defensive Ego Combat Values and Standard Combat Values into different stats and requiring purchase of all four.

 

 Even in the Toolkitting chapters of HERO they discuss making Perception into stand alone statistic/skill.   Although at the moment I can't recall if that is from Core or the APG.

 

Your point on the Complication is valid though, but by no means incompatible with what I am discussing.

 

 

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Be VERY, VERY careful of how you process fictional material.  Who says they're really all that smart?  Is it a failure to perceive, or a failure to interpret...those aren't necessarily the same, and I think, far more often, it's the latter.  If you want academic-smart, buy less of a baseline INT and something like It's also plot device, and almost always, IMO, grossly exaggerated.  

 

I would argue that the entire point of HERO is to simulation fictional material.  And each genre, and honestly each game, will focus on different elements in the genre that it wants to be the focus on.  

 

 

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

If you want good INT skills but not-so-good PER, then buy a more moderate INT, and +1 with all INT skills.  Those levels do NOT apply to PER.  This can, sometimes, be a pain...because those levels also don't apply to background skills.  But, if that's the case, then use the "Inhibited Perception" notion from above.  

 

 

Yes this is a way to do it, but is again contrary to the general goals I am working on for streamlining the game.

That is the strength of HERO there is no "right" way to build things and both players and GMs have a lot of flexibility in the guidelines for character creation in a game.

 

 

 

[Sketchpad]

13 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I'm hearing far too much complication for the sake of very little gain.  You'd have a totally different system.  The roll's based on Target Number OR LESS, so how would adding dice even work?  What's the target number, how does a characteristic play into it?  If the skill check stays the same and you have to make multiple checks, that slows play down tremendously.

 

I've played Storyteller, Shadowrun, and some L5R with exploding dice and Roll X, Keep Y.  I'm not entirely convinced any of them are an *improvement*...and all of them use notably different underpinnings.  Some of em might even make really good supers systems, if you strip out the genre stuff and use the supers environment of your choice.  (Golden Age, SIlver Age, more modern comic, urban fantasy generally, or a specific supers universe from a book series, as most have their quirks.)  But I don't want to cobble an approach from any of them, into a structure that wasn't intended to use it.  

 

How does any of this actually pertain to Hero as written? Doesn't much of what's being discussed here technically change the system beyond what we're using? How would rolling extra dice slow down play any more than, say, rolling damage? To me, it looks like we're changing some of the basic rules of Hero. 

[greypaladin_01]

16 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

It's an interesting idea. Skills could be easy enough to implement in as an adder to the effects. You may want to use a Difficulty system, like needing 6 successes (aka BODY) to achieve a moderate action. Skills could add to this, or even add more dice into the check. So if you have a INT 15, rolling 3d6 for the roll, but also have Deduction 3, this may add 3 more dice in, rolling 6d6 when making Deduction checks. 

 

For the purpose of my initial draft, I will probably not go this far.  Although I do like the idea, it will take a lot more thought and testing to get it running.  

As far as a general function, it would probably work similiar to how the White Wolf success system did.   Although I am going going from memory off looking over those rules in the 90s.

 

For the moment I will likely focus on tweaks to the current skill system for ease of conversion, just changing things to additive format instead of the Number Or Less model right now.   But I do like the Count Body concept and plan to experiment more down the road with it.

[DentArthurDent]

Go for it! Go as far as you can!

 

Stress-testing means pushing a system to failure. That’s the only way to know how strong it is. 
 

Then, back up a few steps. And take a look at it again.

 

Yes, this is a very old school way of testing. But all computer models are based on decades of data from doing just this.

[Doc Democracy]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:19 AM, Sketchpad said:

It's an interesting idea. Skills could be easy enough to implement in as an adder to the effects. You may want to use a Difficulty system, like needing 6 successes (aka BODY) to achieve a moderate action. Skills could add to this, or even add more dice into the check. So if you have a INT 15, rolling 3d6 for the roll, but also have Deduction 3, this may add 3 more dice in, rolling 6d6 when making Deduction checks. 

 

See, if I was going to buy into this, I would have Deduction 3 reduce the moderate difficulty of 6 down to average difficulty 3, and then roll the standard 3 dice. It takes away the potential for the expert to roll a result of 12 but it better demonstrates the value of the skill. 

 

I would also not make the skilled character roll for an average difficulty task, their skill has reduced it to 0 difficulty, play into the competence...

 

GM: As you are walking through the Great Hall you can see there are doorways and galleries stretching away into shadowed recesses.

 

Player: Great place for an ambush, can I see any sign of one.

 

The GM knows there are 3 archers in two of the upper galleries (moderate difficulty check) and a more poorly hidden (average difficulty) swordsman lurking near a doorway.

 

GM: "what's your perception? 3?  Quite impressive!  You can see a swordsman near a doorway to your left, roll the dice to check if he has back up."

[Sketchpad]

17 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

See, if I was going to buy into this, I would have Deduction 3 reduce the moderate difficulty of 6 down to average difficulty 3, and then roll the standard 3 dice. It takes away the potential for the expert to roll a result of 12 but it better demonstrates the value of the skill. 

 

I would also not make the skilled character roll for an average difficulty task, their skill has reduced it to 0 difficulty, play into the competence...

 

GM: As you are walking through the Great Hall you can see there are doorways and galleries stretching away into shadowed recesses.

 

Player: Great place for an ambush, can I see any sign of one.

 

The GM knows there are 3 archers in two of the upper galleries (moderate difficulty check) and a more poorly hidden (average difficulty) swordsman lurking near a doorway.

 

GM: "what's your perception? 3?  Quite impressive!  You can see a swordsman near a doorway to your left, roll the dice to check if he has back up."

 

Fun idea, Doc.

[greypaladin_01]

Hello Everyone!   I just wanted to update everyone on things.   I have put the VERY rough draft together for the baseline of the ideas I have worked up from discussions here and elsewhere.   If you could please go to this new post:  

 

Take a look over things and offer any thoughts or feedback there.   Thank you all!