Jump to content

Social Psychic Powers - Feedback Appreciated!


Recommended Posts

Not sure the best place to post this, but I’ve seen other people post their magic systems and was hoping I could get some feedback for mine?

 

The setting is the United Kingdom in the 30s, modelled after the Golden Age of Detective fiction written then. In play, I see it working as a sort of political thriller, but because of my love of mysteries, a lot of the action will revolve around somebody turning up dead and the players having to figure out who’s done it, and how to protect their interests in the fallout.

 

To go along with this less violent approach to HERO, and because I love superpowers as much as the next person, I wanted a system of social-based magic loosely modelled on the Talent Social Combat system from APG2. But this will be expanded to the most overtly-supernatural, where psychic powers are widely known about and studied, but only seem to present themselves through debate and rhetoric.

 

With this, virtually any mental power can be expressed as Rhetoric (playing on emotions to sway a target) or Logic (appealing to rationality to convince someone) by adding the following modifiers:

 

No Range (−½), Only Works Against Targets In Social Combat (−2), Based on PRE (−¼) (for Rhetoric), and

 

No Range (−½), Only Works Against Targets In Social Combat (−2), Based on INT (−¼) (for Logic).

 

Under this system, Presence Attacks can be targeted against PRE or INT at the attackers discretion, based on how they want to structure their argument, so either approach can be spun off into its own sub-system, while still using virtually the exact same powers.

 

Questions

 

I was wondering, though, why the talents in APG2 had that No Range modifier. It’s consistent throughout the section, so I’ve kept it here just to be safe, but unless I’m misunderstanding something you don’t have to be right next to somebody to talk to them.

 

Also, are there any interesting mental powers people can think of to convert to this system? I’ve got ideas for a few that I may post later, and I know you can get some mileage by converting non-mental powers like Entangle to being mental, but I’m sure the board’s wealth of knowledge can turn up something I’ve missed.

 

Thank you very much!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I had to guess, the No Range is included mechanically is to simulate that you can only use the ability when speaking to those around you, instead of say 50m away like you could with normal Mental Powers.

 

I do not have my books at hand to look up the rules on Mental Powers but do you not also need to include a limitation for "must be able to speak / target must understand language" for these?   The whole thing is that you must be talking to convince/manipulate someone with this system.   You could perhaps even make a case that the powers need Extra Time modifiers since a proper speech usually takes more than a short sentence or two to sway someone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's another good point. I'd started by simply porting over the modifiers from the Talent Social Combat system, but I wonder if things like being mutually intelligible and requiring enough time to convey ideas were supposed to be represented by that hefty Only Works Against Targets In Social Combat. If we had modifiers for Incantations and Extra Time then we'd probably need to take that out, or at least reduce the limitation severely, and at that point is there anything else missing that could do with being made explicit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While adding more modifiers might be the way to go.  It is also something that you could just establish as -0 Limitations that are just the "ground rules" for how the system works.   As long as all mental powers are used in this manner, they are less game mechanic limits and more just the Rules of The Game.

 

This will also clarify to players how the abilities work ahead of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While playing around with ideas for social/mental powers, I came across these two and wanted to check them by the more experienced members of the forum. The specific modifiers discussed above can be changed if need be, but my main focus is on the power builds as a whole.

 

Psionic Surgery

Major Transform 6d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Mental Defense; +0), Alternate Combat Value (uses OMCV against DMCV; +1/4) (75 Active Points); Only Works Against Targets In Social Combat (-2), No Range (-1/2), Based on INT (-1/4)

 

The first idea I had was for a secret society to use to provide a "reincarnation" service for the wealthy and elite. You provide them with examples of your memories and personality traits that you feel describe you and, however long it takes, the society will find someone of a similar description to you and use this power to reshape their mind until they truly believe themselves to be you. Then, in the event that you die, this doppelganger can be placed in control of your estate, ensuring that you retain control over it from beyond the grave.

 

Now, I've picked Major Transform because the Psionic Surgery example from APG1 only gave examples up to and including Major, so I figure by that logic successive uses of a Major Transform should be able to, over time, replace enough of someone's mind to constitute an entire personality-switch. But do you think Severe would be justified, since the end-result is complete replacement of the mind, or would that only be needed for doing the whole process with one use? Also, the APG writeup included a Limited Target modifier (mental "objects" in the minds of sentient beings), but I wasn't sure if this was justified in this case, since I couldn't think of anything else you'd change with a Mental Transform. Any thoughts on this?

 

A Superior Kind of Chicanery

Mental Illusions 4d6, Guaranteed Modifier, Constant (+1/2), Area Of Effect (32m Radius; +1) (75 Active Points); Only Works Against Targets In Social Combat (-2), No Range (-1/2), Based on PRE (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

This power uses the Major ability of Mental Illusions to make friends look and act like enemies, and works in reverse by making the user come across as innocent of any crime to anyone who can hear them speak. The Guaranteed Modifier is from APG and guarantees a PRE + 10 effect if the roll succeeds, which is what I've judged this level of change at, and the other modifiers are designed to create a Voice Range/Damage Shield effect. What I'm not sure about is that both of these modifiers require Area Of Effect: Voice Range at the +1 level and Damage Shield as a personal surface. I decided to pay for the more expensive version, but should I technically pay for both?

 

I'm not the best at keeping track of modifiers, and these can be some messy interactions, so I might be setting myself up to fail here, but does anybody think there's enough worth working with here? As always, any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have to make the Psionic surgery into a Severe Transformation. Also 6d6 is a large number for something taking place in out of combat time. Go with a lower number and more rolls. Transform is cumulative.

 

I'm not familiar with the enough with the APG, but 4d6 doesn't usually achieve +10 on anyone. To get to the average against even a Normal requires 5d6 with the round-up. How does the Guaranteed Modifier affect this? Again, using Cumulative would let you get this result in slightly more time with fewer dice. Both Powers would have lower active costs also.

 

 

Edited by Grailknight
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure if I can reproduce the text exactly, but effectively it's an adder equal to the amount required to get the modifier. So an EGO + 10 effect would be a 10 point adder. For what it's worth, it does have a warning sign (not a stop sign) by it. APG p69 if anyone has it and wants to look up the reference themselves.

 

EDIT: To clarify, with the adder any successful roll always achieves that modifier, as I understand it. So for this power you pay 10 points for the adder, but any amount over the defender's PRE would get you the +10 effect.

Edited by Cloppy Clip
Wasn't clear enough.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like your note about using cumulative in this situation, but the business with breakout rolls is something I'd overlooked, and that I have just been brushing up on. For this particular power, it might work out better to drop the voice range area of effect and make it a normal single-target power. Then, with the Clever Repartee power from APG2 (effectively a Drain PRE), you could get back to the usual Talent Social Combat system, where the user would want to reduce their opponent's PRE over time and then hit them with the Mental Illusions when they're vulnerable. That would probably make for more engaging gameplay, too, as there's the question of how much PRE to drain before going for the big finisher.

 

That said, if breakout rolls are normal EGO rolls, only modified by how much you beat the effect roll, is it just me or is it going to be quite difficult to build low-AP mental powers? For a low-powered campaign focused around them like this one, that's something that needs keeping an eye on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since you are looking to heavily alter the standard rules, some of the changes to mental powers are just the new Base Rules: This Game.   As long as ALL the Social Combats work using these base rules then you don't need to worry about the points/limitations as much.   The important thing is that players can all understand how things work by default.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it would help if I had a better frame of reference for what a mental power is supposed to accomplish. For example, I have a rough guideline taken from Tasha's guide of 2 Def per 1 DC, with enough CON to take an average attack and enough STUN to take 2-3 average attacks. Then tweaks can be made around that guideline to personalise characters.

 

Now, for mental powers, that guide recommends 1 MD per 1 DC, which works out to a nice 2.5 points of effect per DC on average, or +5 to the Effect Roll for each +2 DC. So, let's say we have a 12 DC mental power going up against someone with 12 MD, and they have an average roll of 42 - 12 = 30. What is 30 expected to accomplish? You'd get an EGO+10 effect if the average EGO is 20, or an EGO effect if the average EGO is 30, but what would you consider an acceptable result for an unmodified power like Mind Control or Mental Illusions? Once I have that, I can start building my base to tweak numbers around, and that will make the whole process go much more smoothly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mechanically, I'm not sure I can help to much.   I am not super familiar with Mental Powers off the top of my head.   However I can help a little with guidelines.

As GM you need to decide what the upper limits of the Powers should be.   Also what the typical amount that NPCs might have in the world.   If everyone has 10d6 Mind Control and can talk people to jumping off bridges, then Mental Defense will likely be higher too... which negates out having so many dice.

If PCs are special and these powers are very rare then MD would be very low or non-existant and maybe only 6d6 is all you need.

But you should decide how much influence someone could at MAX have on another and what the average NPC stats for generic or 'named" characters are... that should give you a rough starting guideline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/20/2023 at 6:19 PM, Cloppy Clip said:

I like your note about using cumulative in this situation, but the business with breakout rolls is something I'd overlooked, and that I have just been brushing up on. For this particular power, it might work out better to drop the voice range area of effect and make it a normal single-target power. Then, with the Clever Repartee power from APG2 (effectively a Drain PRE), you could get back to the usual Talent Social Combat system, where the user would want to reduce their opponent's PRE over time and then hit them with the Mental Illusions when they're vulnerable. That would probably make for more engaging gameplay, too, as there's the question of how much PRE to drain before going for the big finisher.

 

That said, if breakout rolls are normal EGO rolls, only modified by how much you beat the effect roll, is it just me or is it going to be quite difficult to build low-AP mental powers? For a low-powered campaign focused around them like this one, that's something that needs keeping an eye on.

 

Yes, to both. Mental Powers just don't function well in a low powered campaign. Cumulative helps and paired with Damage over Time will get you what you're describing but this combination is dangerously OP and easily abused so GM moderation is mandatory.

 

The drain will lower breakout rolls and that helps but all the time spent draining is time your opposition may be expressing their opinion of your actions in ... forceful terms. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you both for the feedback. Grailknight, if it helps, this campaign is modelled around social matters, where the genre doesn't support violently attacking people in conversation, so while the opposition will respond negatively, they'd be limited to doing so with their own Drains, Mental Powers and Presence Attacks, much as you are.

 

I decided to do some digging in my Champions Villains books, and it looks like most villains have between 20-30 EGO. Going by my rule-of-thumb of 1 Mental Defence per 1 DC of Mental Power (the villains in these books seemed to have nearer 1.25 Mental Defence per 1 DC, but I prefer the round numbers of a straight 1:1), a 12 DC Mind Control will average 30 EGO, giving an EGO Effect for the high-end, and an EGO+10 Effect for the low-end. As this rule-of-thumb means that adding 2 DCs of the Mental Power adds 5 to the average Effect Roll, I can scale my numbers up or down depending on how heroic or superheroic I want the campaign to be.

 

So, for a totally average world where average people just happen to have psychic powers, an average DC of 8 pairs up with 10-20 EGO. Or I could beef the players up to 15-25 EGO and get an average DC of 10. Or even go full Champions and go with 20-30 EGO and 12 DC. This method looks to be nicely future-proofed, since I can tweak the numbers and use these guidelines for different campaigns working on different principles.

 

So, again, thank you for the input and hopefully this information will be of use to someone reading this thread. If not, at least it's sorted me out for a while!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I couldn't find a rule against double-posting, but please let me know if I've overstepped any boundaries by doing so.

 

Building off my last post, I've been looking into Presence Attacks and I've hit another snag. So it seems that, on average, two characters with equal PRE aren't going to do much to each other with their Presence Attacks. Since you're comparing each 1d6 to 5 points, the average attack won't hit PRE, let alone PRE+10 or so on. You're expected to try and leverage the bonus dice from complications, roleplaying and other situational modifiers to try and make up the difference, but I haven't seen anything saying how many bonus dice you're expected to score on average. Obviously the actual amount can vary wildly from roll to roll, but I'm sure there must have been a baseline the designers had in mind.

 

Assuming PRE 20, 6d6 feels like it gives a good spread to me, which would say +2d6 for a heroic level game, but that's just my intuition. Has anybody had much experience using Presence Attacks at the table?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have run a few extended champions campaigns for groups and solo and found that PRE attacks use are very dependent on the player and concept.

 

Supers vs Supers there is little use for PRE attacks, unless the character is specifically built to use them.  Because as you said very few players I saw really took PRE up much past 20 or so.  However my gfs solo character uses them often...  especially when going up against groups of lesser enemies... usually to try and get a few to hesitate for 1/2 phase or to run.   I tend to be a little more giving with the extra dice for situational mods... but she did also have the character buy extra PRE only for fear/intimidation so its on brand.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We came alive to the power of PRE when I designed a character for my friend based on Marvel Comics' Jack of Hearts.

 

I boosted his PRE to 60 because we wanted him to be VERY impressive.  He became moreso when my friend leaned into this, creating tailored soliloquies to boost and, usually, contributing with flashy shows of power.

 

He really cleared the arena, the agent types I typically used as a threat cloud and distraction were often totally blown away. 

 

Made everyone aware of a new combat dynamic.

 

Doc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would you both say then that Presence Attacks work best when it's one character with a much higher PRE going up against disposable mooks? It does look like that's what the rules are geared up for, which is useful to know. Good news is that, if the rules aren't concerned too much with the social combat idea I have for this game then I'm free to define my own guidelines as I please. Thank you very much, both!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Cloppy Clip said:

Would you both say then that Presence Attacks work best when it's one character with a much higher PRE going up against disposable mooks? It does look like that's what the rules are geared up for, which is useful to know. Good news is that, if the rules aren't concerned too much with the social combat idea I have for this game then I'm free to define my own guidelines as I please. Thank you very much, both!

 

While I am certain that there are other ways PRE attacks could be used, yes that is pretty much my experience.

 

Mechanically PRE attacks are something that will give the initiator the chance of a small combat or RP benefit that is very short term.   Making enemies hesitate for 1/2 phase to give you more time to manuver into position, perhaps making a few thugs surrender or run away.   "It's Batman!  Screw this... I didn't sign up for taking on the Bat!"    Attempting to rally a group of NPCs to listen to you during chaos,, think about Superman or Captain America addressing a crowd to move away from a combat zone, or rally them to help the injured in a catastrophe situation.   The final use I could see, at least for simulating comics, would be when Major Enemies show up and perhaps cause PCs to lose 1/2 phase action.   "It's Dr. Doom!  This is way out of our league!"     But ultimately, I think that PRE attacks were designed for empowerment of PCs to help mechanically give them the BIG HERO Speech/Entrance moments you see so often. 

 

That being said,  it is your table and if your players are open to trying something different then go for it.... just don't feel you are trapped with your initial idea once you get started.  Even the best designed games were play-tested over and over and had many things change during the process.   Find what feels fun and your whole table enjoys, and you'll be golden.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...