Deadlands Hero

[Bozimus]

Two questions in one thread.

 

One, I would like to add the chip system of Deadlands to Champions, but am unsure how to translate it.

 

Two, anyone done a conversion of Deadlands to Hero?

Thanks,

Boz

[lemming]

I really liked the chip system and wouldn't mind using it. I just haven't done any work on it.

 

Hmm, instead of using the Speed Chart, deal out that many cards per turn for your actions. 13 segments per turn...

 

Hmm, more thought needed.

[Herolover]

I am a long time fan of the HERO System and convert almost any game I ever get to HERO system (this really makes some of my friends mad). However, Deadland is one of the few, if not the only game, I will never convert. Deadlands is just to awesome of a game by itself.

 

Now to answer your question.

1) Check out the Luck power in FRED. My suggestion is taking and using it. You can pretty much use the Poker Chips as a visual representation of what the characters have.

 

An example of this would be lets say you let a character add +1 to a dice roll for a white, +2 for a blue, or +3 for a red chip. Or however you want to do it.

 

2) This isn't really your question, but was brought up by Lemming. My idea for cards has been a player gets a number of cards equal to his Speed. (This replaced the quickness roll.) From there it follows Deadland normal rules for determinting who goes when.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Herolover

2) This isn't really your question, but was brought up by Lemming. My idea for cards has been a player gets a number of cards equal to his Speed. (This replaced the quickness roll.) From there it follows Deadland normal rules for determinting who goes when.

Pretty much what I meant, just clearer.

[Bozimus]

Thanks, Lemming and Herolover!

 

A little background. I have a player (champs) that is roleplaying his Disads significantly better than the other two players. I was going to give him 1 more experience. I thought, 'Wow, he puts himself at a tactical disadvantage in an effort to address his Disads and all he gets is one stinking point? Gotta do better than that...'

 

Then I thought of the Deadlands chip system.

 

I want to let the chips influence the combat - in subtle ways.

 

On the conversion side, gadgeteers are Mad Scientists, fantasy hero clerics are Blessed, but the Huckster is the challenge.

 

Any ideas?

[Herolover]

I was running a gritty supers campaign one time and one of my players wanted a "huckster."

 

I don't remember all the details, but basically what we ended up doing was creating the characters "hexes" as powers. Each power or "hex" required an EGO roll with side effects.

 

That gets down the basic idea of a Huckster. The one problem with this system is there isn't a way to do create the "I do better on my roll so I get more power" idea. HERO is more of an all or nothing thing.

 

If you wanted to do a Huckster completely right you could ignore the "official" HERO rules and just let how well the character's RSR roll determine how much "power" of a hex he would get to use.

 

Other than that I do not see a way to do the Huckster completely right and official as he is in Deadlands.

 

As I said, this is one reason, as great as HERO is, that I will never convert Deadlands. It is just to good the way it is.

[Bozimus]

Originally posted by Herolover

I was running a gritty supers campaign one time and one of my players wanted a "huckster."

 

I don't remember all the details, but basically what we ended up doing was creating the characters "hexes" as powers. Each power or "hex" required an EGO roll with side effects.

 

That gets down the basic idea of a Huckster. The one problem with this system is there isn't a way to do create the "I do better on my roll so I get more power" idea. HERO is more of an all or nothing thing.

 

If you wanted to do a Huckster completely right you could ignore the "official" HERO rules and just let how well the character's RSR roll determine how much "power" of a hex he would get to use.

 

Other than that I do not see a way to do the Huckster completely right and official as he is in Deadlands.

 

As I said, this is one reason, as great as HERO is, that I will never convert Deadlands. It is just to good the way it is.

 

Herolover,

Deadlands is a very fun game, but I think the combat system is a little skimpy when compared to Hero. I tried to run it once and my players kept finding situations that just were not covered in the rules (possibly they were covered and my inexperience with said rule system caused me to overlook clarifications). Anyhow, the Huckster's EGO roll with side effects is a good idea. Possibly coupled with -3/4 Lim 2 RSR rolls (first one for minimum effect, say first 20 active points, second one for say, an extra 20 active points). If he failed them both, then the nasty side effect kicks in.

 

Just off the top of my head...

[lemming]

Originally posted by Bozimus

Anyhow, the Huckster's EGO roll with side effects is a good idea. Possibly coupled with -3/4 Lim 2 RSR rolls (first one for minimum effect, say first 20 active points, second one for say, an extra 20 active points). If he failed them both, then the nasty side effect kicks in.

Some of the spells described in Fantasy Hero use such a construct.

[Captain Obvious]

I've mentioned before on the boards that you could keep the huckster's poker hand in Hero if you defined it as an Activation roll. With 5 cards, you get one pair or better about 50% of the time, so pretty much all spells get an 11- activation. You can build spells in increments with each increment having a higher hand (or activation roll), so that a spell that gets 6d6N damage on one pair gets 8d6 on two pair, and 10d6 on three of a kind. Of course, once you get higher up in the rankings, you kind of have to make up your own limitation levels for the activation rolls, since Hero system doesn't really support the miniscule chances of a straight flush....

 

Here's a thread where I worked up Soul Blast in Hero terms:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2980

[Bozimus]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious

I've mentioned before on the boards that you could keep the huckster's poker hand in Hero if you defined it as an Activation roll. With 5 cards, you get one pair or better about 50% of the time, so pretty much all spells get an 11- activation. You can build spells in increments with each increment having a higher hand (or activation roll), so that a spell that gets 6d6N damage on one pair gets 8d6 on two pair, and 10d6 on three of a kind. Of course, once you get higher up in the rankings, you kind of have to make up your own limitation levels for the activation rolls, since Hero system doesn't really support the miniscule chances of a straight flush....

 

Here's a thread where I worked up Soul Blast in Hero terms:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2980

 

Wow! That thread was very informative! That gives me much to consider. Thanks, Capt. Obvious.

[zornwil]

Bozimus, keep us posted on how this goes, I'm very interested. I am going to be adding a chip system at the higher reputation levels but haven't worked it out yet, so was keen on seeing this thread.

[Bozimus]

Originally posted by zornwil

Bozimus, keep us posted on how this goes, I'm very interested. I am going to be adding a chip system at the higher reputation levels but haven't worked it out yet, so was keen on seeing this thread.

 

Some thoughts on chips and Hero....

 

You gotta be careful when tinkering. I told my players that rolling a natural 3 meant full damage from the dice (champs game, standard superhero level). What happens? Inexperienced Brick grabs super villain and knocks him out. Since the villain shows signs of becoming conscious again, brick decides to put him down for the count by pushing him face first through a nearby wall.

 

The experienced player grimaces, knowing what could occur. Newbie brick rolls a "3" with 60 STR. Does 24 body, 72 stun to a guy with 7 PD defenses, 15 body (forcefield shut down after getting clocked the first time). Now the brick's reward for rolling a critical success is to spend the majority of the remaining combat trying to keep this guy from dying.

 

Groan....

 

So, my goal is to create a chip system that rewards the players for good roleplaying, without destabilizing the combat system. I also want something that can keep a player from dying from one incredibly bad roll.

 

Deadlands has four chip levels - white, red, blue, and legend. In ascending order of power. I have tinkered (mentally, not in game) with having a white chip give the player a chance to re-roll one of the three dice used.

 

Example, Blobbo the brick has a 6 OCV and he is trying to hit an evil martial artist DCV of 9. He needs an 8 or less to hit. He rolls 5-3-3 for an 11. A miss normally. He decides to use a white chip and reroll that 5. He really needs to clock this martial artist. Odds are still against him, since he needs a 1 or a 2 on the D6 to get a hit. But he has a chance that didn't exist before...

 

Not sure how the red, blue, or legend chip would work but having a blue or legend chip force a complete re-roll of damage that would normally kill or KO a hero might not be a bad idea.

 

Oh yeah, the GM would get some chips (fewer than the players) that he can use in similar fashion to keep a favorite villain from dying as well...

 

[zornwil]

Rerolling for white makes sense; maybe it allows you to roll 1/8 or 1/6 more die on a damge roll. Maybe a red (and blue) would allow you to roll a die and SUBTRACT that from a "to hit" or skill roll or roll 1/4 or 1/3 more in die on a damage roll. Red and blue could function the same as they do in Deadlands if the GM is drawing chips for the villains. Maybe in any of these you could freely allow a character to reduce damage, as a charitable heroic reward for those not wishing to inflict as much as they rolled.

 

I'd also keep the ability for white, red, blue, and legend to restore STUN, something like white = 5, red = 10, blue = 20, and legend = ALL. I'd allow these to also be spent to immediately unSTUN and to assist in recoveries, i.e., they could be spent at any time, even if the character is far under.

[Bozimus]

Deadlanders, correct me if I am in error, but that game system has few situations whereby they let you increase damage with chips. The primary purpose of the chips is to increase Traits/aptitudes permanently, mitigate damage, and make aptitude rolls more frequently.

 

I think a great deal of caution should be exercised if you let someone chip up their damage in Hero. I, as a fledgling GM am constantly worried that I have stumbled headfirst into the incorrect balance of offense (AP) vs defenses. Nobody wants fights to last 10 full turns or less than one full turn...

 

Zornwil, chipping the stun in your fashion sounds pretty good. However, I understand a hero getting his second wind, but to come back from GM discretion with one legend chip sounds powerful and hard to explain in genre...

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Bozimus

Deadlanders, correct me if I am in error, but that game system has few situations whereby they let you increase damage with chips. The primary purpose of the chips is to increase Traits/aptitudes permanently, mitigate damage, and make aptitude rolls more frequently.

 

Yup, right, sorry, double-checked it, only Legend chips can do that.

 

I think a great deal of caution should be exercised if you let someone chip up their damage in Hero. I, as a fledgling GM am constantly worried that I have stumbled headfirst into the incorrect balance of offense (AP) vs defenses. Nobody wants fights to last 10 full turns or less than one full turn...

 

Zornwil, chipping the stun in your fashion sounds pretty good. However, I understand a hero getting his second wind, but to come back from GM discretion with one legend chip sounds powerful and hard to explain in genre...

 

Yeah, I would take it as a "I just looked like I went down after I tripped" or some-such. As you, I'm still thinking about it, so not sure how far I'll go. Where I really want to see chips used is in the epic battles with the big bad at the higher gaming levels, where it gets harder (at least for me) as a GM to make villains that don't one-punch the heroes and for which a little "extra" may be in order. I think chips could add some spirit to those battles and I won't mind if those last longer, as they should be pretty significant "issue-long" happenings.

[Bozimus]

Originally posted by zornwil

Yeah, I would take it as a "I just looked like I went down after I tripped" or some-such. As you, I'm still thinking about it, so not sure how far I'll go. Where I really want to see chips used is in the epic battles with the big bad at the higher gaming levels, where it gets harder (at least for me) as a GM to make villains that don't one-punch the heroes and for which a little "extra" may be in order. I think chips could add some spirit to those battles and I won't mind if those last longer, as they should be pretty significant "issue-long" happenings.

 

Good point! An excellent use for the chip system is making it easier for the good guys to last a little longer against that big bad guy.

 

How about this? Chips give you a one time AID to STUN or BODY or the choice to use the optional healing rule. Bigger the chip, bigger the D6 in AID...

 

That way a player that needs just a little stun can choose the pure STUN, a player bleeding to death can select the BODY and a player that has taken a little of both can select the O.H.R.? Might make the difference between a character that is up and one that goes down...

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Bozimus

Good point! An excellent use for the chip system is making it easier for the good guys to last a little longer against that big bad guy.

 

How about this? Chips give you a one time AID to STUN or BODY or the choice to use the optional healing rule. Bigger the chip, bigger the D6 in AID...

 

That way a player that needs just a little stun can choose the pure STUN, a player bleeding to death can select the BODY and a player that has taken a little of both can select the O.H.R.? Might make the difference between a character that is up and one that goes down...

 

That sounds pretty interesting, I like the notion, and the idea of offering them as options.

[Bozimus]

deadlands conversion

 

Herolover,

I respect your opinion about not converting Deadlands, but I disagree. I think it will be a challenge, but the game that results from the best system on Earth merging with the fantastic source material known as Deadlands would be worth the effort IMO.

 

That being said, I have decided to start work on this enterprise in my usual slow, percolating fashion. I welcome suggestions on how to handle various aspects like - the Harrowed, the Huckster, the Mad Scientist, the Blessed, etc...

[Lamrok]

Bozo, I mean Bozimus ,

 

I've gone back and forth on the issue of converting Deadlands to Hero. For my group, the Hero combat system is quick and comprehensive, and I like the flexibility of a points-based character construction engine. On the other hand, the Deadlands system is really built as a large construct with a number of discrete features, rather than a bunch of features that add up to a system. The "chips" subsystem, for example, provides a counter-balance to the "open ended" dice rolling subsystem.

 

On the other hand, chips add a lot of flavor to a game, as players have to decide when and how to use them, and the basic act of tossing in a chip definitely adds a certain entertainment factor. As a GM, I liked slowly hoarding a cache of chips to use for those final climactic encounters. And awarding chips for the playing of disads tends to destabilize a game in a very entertaining manner (or, at least it did for us.)

 

Lamrok

[Bozimus]

Lamrok, old bean!

Put that super-powered noodle of yours in high gear and get to convertin'!

[UltraRob]

I dunno, this chipped system is nice, but seems overcomplicated just to add a little cinematic flair to a game. I still use the system I borrowed from GURPS based on Unspent Character Points.

 

Characters can blow their extra points to produce effects like re-rolls, not dying from lethal hits, and occasional cinematic effects. ("Why YES, there is a crowbar in the closet" or "yes, there is a table in the right spot for you to vault up onto the chandelier in this room", etc) All of it under GM rule, and I usually give them an extra point or two of experience to balance this, because I know they will save it anyways.

 

If I want tough villians...the villians can do the same thing. Only the major villians, though.

 

I started this since my players were used to DC/Blood of Heros and so they complained how much they missed being able to do cinematic stuff when they needed it and it would be cool.

 

Rob

[Bozimus]

Gurps Deadlands

 

Has anyone ever considered using Gurps Deadlands as a stepping stone in converting Deadlands to Hero? Since Gurps and Hero are very similar in many regards, I have found some of the Gurps books to be one of the more useful sources from different systems.

 

UltraRob,

Your cinematic suggestion is interesting. How has it worked thus far? Any attempted abuse?

[Chromatic]

If for nothing else, the Deadlands game system should be played at least once by every gamer just so they can experiece the chips system it has.

 

looking forward to chips in Zornwil's game

[Captain Obvious]

I agree. What's odd to me is how Deadlands, with such an interesting and colorful system all its own, would get translated into so many other systems that are less interesting overall.

 

Of course, translating it to Hero while keeping the chips and cards is no big deal....

[Bozimus]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious

I agree. What's odd to me is how Deadlands, with such an interesting and colorful system all its own, would get translated into so many other systems that are less interesting overall.

 

Of course, translating it to Hero while keeping the chips and cards is no big deal....

 

The system is colorful and interesting. And VERY unbalanced, IMO. Hucksters for example. From what little I have seen, they can wield enormous power with a lucky draw of the cards. I have also heard, from Lamrok, that many of the books give far too powerful abilities to the players. Maybe Lamrok will elaborate...

 

I just think it would be nice to translate it into a system like Hero, where I can maintain a little control over the power levels, yet keep the flavor.