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Duplication and Extradimensional Space


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If I build a character who has both Duplication (6e1, p198), and Extradimensional Space (APG II, p27) - presumably each Duplicate and the Original Character (OC) has their own EDS.  The EDS is something they can do - no Focus Limitation.  Would it be a Limitation, an Advantage, or both for all to *share* the same EDS?  This would allow one Duplicate/OC to put something into the EDS, and another Duplicate/OC anywhere could then take that item out.  The downside is the EDS isn't "multiplied" by the number of Duplicates...

Edited by SteveZilla
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Depends on concept.  It could be a wash...or a rather serious advantage, if the duplicates are intended to be widely scattered, and if you put one of em as a supplier for several others, say.  (Especially if the dupes don't have teleport.)

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If these duplicates have equipment which is stored inside the EDS, then it is probably a multiplayer bought with an OIF/IIF or "objects which are actually not focuses but special effects", or a VVP. Maybe even the power Object Creation, which creates perfectly ordinary objects.

 

But that is supplemental expansions based on EDS, and not an answer to the original question.

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51 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

The question is, if it is the same EDS, can it be used to allow one duplicate to pass an object to any other duplicate regardless of distance?

That is the idea behind the multiplayer I described above. It might get a limitation of Lockout to simulate that if one duplicate is using item x, that nobody else can use item x till it is put back into EDS storage.

 

Of course it could carry enough equipment for each of them, then no Lockout is needed.

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One thing that needs to be taken into account is what happens when the duplicates recombine? Let’s say you have two duplicates and each duplicate puts in different items.  When the two duplicates merge what items can the character access? What happens if the combined mass is more than the EDS can accommodate?  

 

If all duplicates share the same EDS, it eliminates the problems with recombining.   
 

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48 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

As I remember it, an Extra Dimensional Space spits out everything if it is dispelled or collapses, so presumably a duplicated one would dump anything over its capacity when recombined.

Remember that multiplayer doesn't count for the EDS weight limit, as they are not technacly items but powers in there own right.

 

...also, you can't use Object Creation to create swords out of the thin air....but again that is a side power and your player might not want to buy an equipment multipower and/or Object Creation power.

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But which items would be ejected?  What about if they mass limit was not exceeded by the combined items?  What about retrieving something that the other duplicate put in the EDS?   

 

If all duplicates share a common space a lot of this is not an issue.  Otherwise, it needs to be addressed.  For simplicity's sake it would probably be better to use a shared space.  
 

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Unfortunately true.

 

On 6/13/2024 at 5:57 PM, LoneWolf said:

One thing that needs to be taken into account is what happens when the duplicates recombine? Let’s say you have two duplicates and each duplicate puts in different items.  When the two duplicates merge what items can the character access? What happens if the combined mass is more than the EDS can accommodate?  

 

If all duplicates share the same EDS, it eliminates the problems with recombining.   
 

 

That depends on whether the dups are using their own space, OR are simply sharing access to the space.

 

If the dupes are paying the cost for the space separately, then *for them* it can be a limitation...they're accessing the shared space.  Alternately...blow off putting it onto the duplicates, and apply Usable Simultaneously to the EDS.  As long as the space is fairly small, this won't be too bad.  The heck with a rigid interpretation that this would create "altered duplicates."  

 

I strongly prefer the UBO choice, as it eliminates the weirdness about what happens when a dupe recombines.  

 

EDIT:  in HD, the best way to do this is probably buy the EDS on its own, then buy a Naked Advantage for the UBO.  NOW you can apply a limitation to the UBO..."recipient" is dupes only.  

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I am working on a new character, with some abilities I haven't explored yet in Hero System.  The Duplicates (and "Original") are all identical in Powers, Skills, Complications, etc.

I don't see the reasoning behind Christopher's statement:
 

On 6/13/2024 at 1:45 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

I would rule that since its just another you, then you all have access to the same space but as our uncle Vlad notes, special effect/concept matters.  I wouldn't give you a limitation if you couldn't all access it either.


Especially given 6e1, p202 says:

"Vehicle, Base: The rules note that a group of characters
can pool Character Points and buy a Base
or Vehicle together. This doesn’t apply to a group
of Duplicates. If a base character has paid X points
for a Vehicle or Base, and he builds all his Duplicates
as “exact duplicates,” then each one has also
spent X points on a Base, and thus has his own
Base. All the points don’t add together; instead,
each Duplicate has his own Base that only appears
when he’s in existence.
"
 

This would lead me to think that, just like all the other Powers an Identical Duplicate has, each Duplicate gets their own "copy" of EDS, the same as all their other powers.

And yes, 6e1 does say what happens to a Base/Vehicle/Follower that only a (non-Identical) Duplicate has - they disappear when the Duplicate is not 'active', and appear when they are.  But "disappear" doesn't have to mean "ceases to exist in all of reality" - it could mean that Duplicate's EDS is out there... somewhere... sealed up and inaccessible until the Duplicate comes along and accesses their EDS.  This would also solve the "what happens to the contents when the EDS ceases to exist" problem.

Since (IMO) each of the Identical Duplicates (and the Original) all paid for the EDS, they each get a "keyed" EDS of their own.  If they all have a Weight Limit (remaining Identical), then any Dupe/Original trying to cram 10 lbs. of junk into a 5 lb. sack, then APG2, p28 would come into effect:

"... if the
weight limit is exceeded, the Extradimensional
Space “breaks” and deposits its contents at a location
in the character’s dimension corresponding to
the Space’s location."

Which, for simplicity's sake, and IMO, would mean where the character is located that caused the "breaking" is located, since they were presumably accessing it at the moment they caused the "break".

So, since each Dupe and Original normally would get their own independent EDS, it would be a significant reduction in total volume/mass transportable if everybody had only *one* EDS shared amongst them all - and the fact that Dupe/OP could pass something through the EDS to some other Dupe/OP wouldn't make up for the limited volume and weight capacity - it's an 'unintended byproduct' from the way my mind works.  But YMMV.

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On 6/13/2024 at 3:14 PM, dmjalund said:

The question is, if it is the same EDS, can it be used to allow one duplicate to pass an object to any other duplicate regardless of distance?

maybe add megascale advantage to connect the multiple EDS?(use cubic meters of space as the base distance to be multiplied against)

So 8 cubic meters x 10,000km will get you pretty much anywhere on earth and to geo stationary orbit
as your going to need to use the custom power all advantages would be viable

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In the end either way would work, but the character purchasing the power needs to decide how it works when the power is built and that is the way it works.  There are advantages to both way but they seem to be balanced against each other.  Being able to pass things off your other duplicates is offset by the fact you all have a single space.   On the other hand, having to split up to retrieve something a duplicate is carrying is offset by the fact you can carry more.  

 

If you want the best of both worlds than it may become a problem and the character is going to need to figure out how to make that work in the game.

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17 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

In the end either way would work, but the character purchasing the power needs to decide how it works when the power is built and that is the way it works.  There are advantages to both way but they seem to be balanced against each other.  Being able to pass things off your other duplicates is offset by the fact you all have a single space.   On the other hand, having to split up to retrieve something a duplicate is carrying is offset by the fact you can carry more.  

 

If you want the best of both worlds than it may become a problem and the character is going to need to figure out how to make that work in the game.

 

Of course to be able to take care of it an multiple ways you could utilize both via a Multipower.

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That might actually make it worse.  Now you have even more EDS to keep track of.  A lot of these type situations are more than just game mechanics and are about playability of the character.  To me that is one of the best arguments for the shared EDS.  If each duplicate has its own space, you have to keep track of which duplicate put which item in his EDS.  

 

Let’s say duplicate 3 puts a magic item in his own personal EDS, and a year later one before removing it is killed.  That item can no longer be retrieved.  That means you have to have some way of keeping track of each duplicate and what he is carrying.  Random rolls may help on some of it, but you still need to keep track of a lot of details that are not really that important.  

 

If you have a multipower with both private and public EDS that doubles the number of details, you need to keep track of.  

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that EDS is designed more for carrying and hiding small items instead of bulk storage.  If you want to have a huge stash you would be better off buying extra-dimensional movement to a single dimension and defining that defining that plane as your own private dimension.   For 20 points you can gain access to a whole dimension.  That dimension could be as big or as small as you want.  Why have 16cubic meters when you can have mansion with multiple rooms for the same cost?
 

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1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

The other thing to keep in mind is that EDS is designed more for carrying and hiding small items instead of bulk storage.  If you want to have a huge stash you would be better off buying extra-dimensional movement to a single dimension and defining that defining that plane as your own private dimension.   For 20 points you can gain access to a whole dimension.  That dimension could be as big or as small as you want.  Why have 16cubic meters when you can have mansion with multiple rooms for the same cost?
 

Sounds good, but to use it correctly requires the ability to create portals, which is an advantage, and maybe a way to look into other dimensions. So it would cost more than 20 points. Not much more costly, but, well...

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You don’t need a portal you simply go to your dimension and drop things off.  That also gives you the ability to use it as a secure and safe location.  Using extra dimensional travel actually gives you a lot more for the points.  Making it function exactly as EDS may take some modifiers, but that is not required.  

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27 minutes ago, Stanley Teriaca said:

Sounds good, but to use it correctly requires the ability to create portals, which is an advantage, and maybe a way to look into other dimensions. So it would cost more than 20 points. Not much more costly, but, well...

 

First...I don't recall any "create portal" power.  Portals or gates are an approach related to teleporting and extra-dimensional movement.

 

But beyond that, EDS includes a "portal" to the storage area itself.   The character does not move when accessing items in his EDS.  Before the APG, "bags of holding" were generally built as extra-dimensional reach.  The power definition got really messy...trying to get the cost down to something sane...but the basic concept is fine.  When you start talking XDM, now, the character's moving.  

 

One thing here:  Keep It Simple.  The entire point of defining it as a power is because trying to define it from TK or Reach or XDM got confusing.  Don't overthink things.

 

On 6/15/2024 at 10:33 AM, Beast said:

maybe add megascale advantage to connect the multiple EDS?(use cubic meters of space as the base distance to be multiplied against)

 

 

There is no notion of "distance" involved in the concept.  You can do things like adding Focus...but the power starts from the notion of a pocket dimension you can access.  The space itself has no "location" in conventional terms.

 

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The other thing to keep in mind is that EDS is designed more for carrying and hiding small items instead of bulk storage.  If you want to have a huge stash you would be better off buying extra-dimensional movement to a single dimension and defining that defining that plane as your own private dimension.   For 20 points you can gain access to a whole dimension.  That dimension could be as big or as small as you want.  Why have 16cubic meters when you can have mansion with multiple rooms for the same cost?
 

 

Somewhat true, but there are problems.  XDM has the same mass issues that Teleport has.  You'll need to pay the points to shift the large mass.  If you want to move, let's say, a dozen crates, each weighing 1000 pounds...your XDM can only handle 1 at a time, let's say...so you're talking shifting back and forth for each one.  If you can lift 1000 pounds?  Each crate would just go into the EDS.  Accessing the EDS is also subtle...again, you don't go anywhere.  

 

Note that even 2 cubic meters is the size of a typical closet, so "small items" is a mischaracterization, IMO.  Remember:  1 cubic meter is 35 cubic feet, so 2 is 70 cubic feet.  That's about 18 inches deep * 6 feet tall * 8 feet wide.  We're not talking just a foot locker's worth of space.  

 

So the EDS is more for something you need *immediately*...it's always at least 1 action faster. 

 

On 6/15/2024 at 4:07 AM, SteveZilla said:

(1)

I am working on a new character, with some abilities I haven't explored yet in Hero System.  The Duplicates (and "Original") are all identical in Powers, Skills, Complications, etc.

(2)
Since (IMO) each of the Identical Duplicates (and the Original) all paid for the EDS, they each get a "keyed" EDS of their own.  If they all have a Weight Limit (remaining Identical), then any Dupe/Original trying to cram 10 lbs. of junk into a 5 lb. sack, then APG2, p28 would come into effect:

 

(3)
So, since each Dupe and Original normally would get their own independent EDS, it would be a significant reduction in total volume/mass transportable if everybody had only *one* EDS shared amongst them all - and the fact that Dupe/OP could pass something through the EDS to some other Dupe/OP wouldn't make up for the limited volume and weight capacity - it's an 'unintended byproduct' from the way my mind works.  But YMMV.

 

(1)  Largely.  But don't take this 100% literally...heck, the book doesn't, because that would mean the duplicates can duplicate.  That's discouraged.  For the dupes, RAW says they just ignore that part. So it's not literal.  There are other considerations.  RAW's power is based on biological duplication...the dupes are actual, fully functional life forms.  MANY modern writers use what I call "construct" duplicates...they're not biological.  They don't get killed, they get disrupted...but the primary can make more.  OK, so...you've got useless points on the dupes' sheet...and remember, a dupe has a sheet.  So...give the dupe Life Support and Resurrection Regen...that only sensibly apply to the dupes as "constructs."  (And note, I don't mean build them as robots.  Aside from those specific things, you can keep everything else the same.  The only change is, when a dupe gets stunned...it disappears and can't be recreated until enough time passes that it'd become un-stunned, or fully recovers its stun.  If reduced to 0 BODY, use the resurrection time.)

 

IMO, the *easiest* fix here is to recognize RAW is being its usual, inflexible self.  MINOR, narrow adjustments?  FINE.  1 EDS...only paid for by the original.  Ignore those points...heck, RAW even says it's legal to build the dupes on fewer points.  If the dupes are still fundamentally functionally the same as the original, you don't even need Altered Dups.  Re-read Duplicates Built on Fewer Points, 6E1 198, right column.  Baseline duplication is not intended to allow the character to mimic Multiform as well...but it also isn't intended to be as rigid as tank armor plate.

 

(2)  SIMPLE.  Don't use Weight Limit.  

 

(3)  Yeah, the volume issues are there, but I disagree that it offsets the shared access completely.  As I say...2 or 4 cubic meters is a LARGE space.  8 cubic meters is about the size of the secondary bathroom in my house...sink, toilet, bathtub area, skilling the walk-in part, is 6 feet x 5 feet x 8 feet high, so 240 or so cubic feet.  8 cubic meters is 280.  So, how large are the items you're expecting to pass around?

OTOH, if the primary doesn't have teleport or XDM, this *becomes* a form of it, at least in a limited sense.  It's gonna depend on what you're passing around.  The flip side here is...well, it probably can't be TOO meaningful, because otherwise...what's being passed around should cost points.  We're getting into the "real world logic" versus gaming logic, where Hero says you must pay for everything...in supers.  It may well be this is more of an issue for heroic level, where equipment doesn't cost points...NOW the shared space could easily become significant.  Rifles with clips?  Ran out of shots?  More clips are right there in the EDS!  And you don't have to worry about the ephemeral nature of a duplicate's EDS.

 

 

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2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

First...I don't recall any "create portal" power.  Portals or gates are an approach related to teleporting and extra-dimensional movement.

When I thought of "create portals", I was thinking something you stick your arm in, deposit something, and pull something else out. I wasn't thinking about traveling into somewhere, dropping something off, maybe picking something up, and returning.

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

But beyond that, EDS includes a "portal" to the storage area itself.   The character does not move when accessing items in his EDS.  Before the APG, "bags of holding" were generally built as extra-dimensional reach.  The power definition got really messy...trying to get the cost down to something sane...but the basic concept is fine.  When you start talking XDM, now, the character's moving.  

 

One thing here:  Keep It Simple.  The entire point of defining it as a power is because trying to define it from TK or Reach or XDM got confusing.  Don't overthink things.

I agree. If your simply dropping things off and picking something up, then you have to use EDS, because the rules as written state you can't use anything else. You want a bag of holding effect? EDS is your only recourse as long as it only does that. You pull out a weapon? That has to be represented by attack powers. You want to pull out something you didn't state is in your EDS? You must buy Object Creation.

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

 

There is no notion of "distance" involved in the concept.  You can do things like adding Focus...but the power starts from the notion of a pocket dimension you can access.  The space itself has no "location" in conventional terms.

 

 

Somewhat true, but there are problems.  XDM has the same mass issues that Teleport has.  You'll need to pay the points to shift the large mass.  If you want to move, let's say, a dozen crates, each weighing 1000 pounds...your XDM can only handle 1 at a time, let's say...so you're talking shifting back and forth for each one.  If you can lift 1000 pounds?  Each crate would just go into the EDS.  Accessing the EDS is also subtle...again, you don't go anywhere.  

 

Note that even 2 cubic meters is the size of a typical closet, so "small items" is a mischaracterization, IMO.  Remember:  1 cubic meter is 35 cubic feet, so 2 is 70 cubic feet.  That's about 18 inches deep * 6 feet tall * 8 feet wide.  We're not talking just a foot locker's worth of space.  

 

So the EDS is more for something you need *immediately*...it's always at least 1 action faster. 

 

 

(1)  Largely.  But don't take this 100% literally...heck, the book doesn't, because that would mean the duplicates can duplicate.  That's discouraged.  For the dupes, RAW says they just ignore that part. So it's not literal.  There are other considerations.  RAW's power is based on biological duplication...the dupes are actual, fully functional life forms.  MANY modern writers use what I call "construct" duplicates...they're not biological.  They don't get killed, they get disrupted...but the primary can make more.  OK, so...you've got useless points on the dupes' sheet...and remember, a dupe has a sheet.  So...give the dupe Life Support and Resurrection Regen...that only sensibly apply to the dupes as "constructs."  (And note, I don't mean build them as robots.  Aside from those specific things, you can keep everything else the same.  The only change is, when a dupe gets stunned...it disappears and can't be recreated until enough time passes that it'd become un-stunned, or fully recovers its stun.  If reduced to 0 BODY, use the resurrection time.)

Or you could just buy Summon and define that your summoning duplicates. Like Telos creating almost unlimited clones based on his DNA.

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

IMO, the *easiest* fix here is to recognize RAW is being its usual, inflexible self.  MINOR, narrow adjustments?  FINE.  1 EDS...only paid for by the original.  Ignore those points...heck, RAW even says it's legal to build the dupes on fewer points.  If the dupes are still fundamentally functionally the same as the original, you don't even need Altered Dups.  Re-read Duplicates Built on Fewer Points, 6E1 198, right column.  Baseline duplication is not intended to allow the character to mimic Multiform as well...but it also isn't intended to be as rigid as tank armor plate.

 

(2)  SIMPLE.  Don't use Weight Limit.  

 

(3)  Yeah, the volume issues are there, but I disagree that it offsets the shared access completely.  As I say...2 or 4 cubic meters is a LARGE space.  8 cubic meters is about the size of the secondary bathroom in my house...sink, toilet, bathtub area, skilling the walk-in part, is 6 feet x 5 feet x 8 feet high, so 240 or so cubic feet.  8 cubic meters is 280.  So, how large are the items you're expecting to pass around?

OTOH, if the primary doesn't have teleport or XDM, this *becomes* a form of it, at least in a limited sense.  It's gonna depend on what you're passing around.  The flip side here is...well, it probably can't be TOO meaningful, because otherwise...what's being passed around should cost points.  We're getting into the "real world logic" versus gaming logic, where Hero says you must pay for everything...in supers.  It may well be this is more of an issue for heroic level, where equipment doesn't cost points...NOW the shared space could easily become significant.  Rifles with clips?  Ran out of shots?  More clips are right there in the EDS!  And you don't have to worry about the ephemeral nature of a duplicate's EDS.

 

 

 

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