On 7/16/2024 at 2:30 PM, Gauntlet said:

One thing I have noticed with 6th edition is that it seems rather pointless to purchase skill levels, with maybe the exception of the very cheap ones. Considering that you can buy up your OCV and DCV with only five point a piece and they work all the time, not just in individual circumstances kinda takes much of the usefulness of Combat Skill Levels.

That is only true if you are only concerned with combat values.  In 6th Edition skill level can be used to increase the damage even in a Champions game.  Prior to 6th edition you could not use skill levels to increase the damage in a superhero campaign but could in a heroic campaign like Fantasy Hero.       

13 hours ago, Christougher said:

 

I think you missed something here.  In 5E, an Overall Level IS 10 points, and a great deal.

 

Mmm..sorry, yeah.. The All Combat is 8, the Overall is 10 in 5E.  My intent was to point out the All Combat is a bad choice, and if you're going that far with it, then go the slight extra distance for the Overall.  In both 5E and 6E, it's only 2 points, and relatively speaking as you say, adds much more.

 

And I was, I suspect, mostly thinking 6E.  5E's progression is Tight Group, All (HTH or Ranged), then All.  6E's is Tight Group, Broad Group, All (HTH or Ranged), All.  Those All HTH levels in 6E are 8 each...which IMO is just seriously too high.  I think 5E's might be a bit low, but 6E's overcorrected...perhaps focusing on 6E seeming to be pedantic that a "tight group" can't exceed 3 martial maneuvers.  I sometimes like a couple HAs (a teleporter might have NND HAs, where the defense is Teleport, XDM, or Desolid, a healer might have AVADs based on Power Def, as in a "Harm" power, etc.) AND a couple martial maneuvers...I tend to ignore the Herbertian notion that each one is so separate that they're too many for a "tight group."

On 7/16/2024 at 6:35 PM, unclevlad said:

But I can buy two 3-point levels for 6 points, and get +1 OCV and +1 DCV in most cases that matter to me, for 6 points.  Granted, that gets into G's point that you buy the cheap ones, but in 5E, wouldn't you just buy a higher DEX, rather than CSLs?

 

I think G's making the good point that the All HTH or All Ranged, at least, are generally really poor buys...and the 10 point level is IMO *always* a terrible one.  Drop 2 more points and make it a universal level...the added cost is nothing compared to the added versatility.

 

 

I think this more shows the need to revisit pricing of skill levels.  I can buy +1 OCV and +1 DCV for 10 points.  Spending 10 points to get +1 OCV OR +1 DCV makes no sense.  Buying a Multipower of the desired elements (limited to "only for HTH" or "only for range") could be a reasonable approach.  The skill level cost seems based on a Multipower with every possible element - how many characters need access to every possible element?

 

Adding damage tends to  violate DC limits in many campaigns, even where the rules allow for it.  +2 Skill Levels with Blast, only to add damage, costs less than +1d6 Blast, 0 END, even without a limitation for "damage only".  Try getting away with a 6d6 Blast and 12 3 point skill levels in a typical Supers game!

Edited July 22, 2024Jul 22 by Hugh Neilson

40 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I think this more shows the need to revisit pricing of skill levels.  I can buy +1 OCV and +1 DCV for 10 points.  Spending 10 points to get +1 OCV OR +1 DCV makes no sense.  Buying a Multipower of the desired elements (limited to "only for HTH" or "only for range") could be a reasonable approach.  The skill level cost seems based on a Multipower with every possible element - how many characters need access to every possible element?

 

Adding damage tends to  violate DC limits in many campaigns, even where the rules allow for it.  +2 Skill Levels with Blast, only to add damage, costs less than +1d6 Blast, 0 END, even without a limitation for "damage only".  Try getting away with a 6d6 Blast and 12 3 point skill levels in a typical Supers game!

 

The other thing I might allow with skill levels is additional effects: if you've got 4 skill levels in Blast I might allow you to use 2 to ricochet a shot round the corner.  You could even do martial arts completely differently, just using skill levels: damage/OCV/DCV are already baked in but you could have stuff like NNDs or Throws costing a certain number of skill levels and an opponent might be able to abort to changing their own skill level distribution to prevent themselves being thrown (and they then couldn't change the distribution until after their next phase - I'm making this up as I go).  I kinda like the idea of characters spending levels to counter each other.  It would make for a very different dynamic.

9 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

The other thing I might allow with skill levels is additional effects: if you've got 4 skill levels in Blast I might allow you to use 2 to ricochet a shot round the corner.  You could even do martial arts completely differently, just using skill levels: damage/OCV/DCV are already baked in but you could have stuff like NNDs or Throws costing a certain number of skill levels and an opponent might be able to abort to changing their own skill level distribution to prevent themselves being thrown (and they then couldn't change the distribution until after their next phase - I'm making this up as I go).  I kinda like the idea of characters spending levels to counter each other.  It would make for a very different dynamic. 

 

I don't need any skill levels to Bounce a ranged attack (Hitting with it is another discussion.) and the option to do martial arts in that manner is already present also. The only thing here not already in RAW is the partial Abort of skill levels only. That is an interesting idea but might cause too much slowness in play.

3 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

I don't need any skill levels to Bounce a ranged attack (Hitting with it is another discussion.) and the option to do martial arts in that manner is already present also. The only thing here not already in RAW is the partial Abort of skill levels only. That is an interesting idea but might cause too much slowness in play.

 

If I can reset skill levels while aborting, would it ever make sense to take Defensive Block, Martial Block or Martial Dodge?  Martial Dodge especially, it's MUCH too expensive for an additional +2 DCV over the standard Dodge.

 

Even without martial maneuvers, it'd let me reset from all-out on attack to all-out on defense if I need it.

 

14 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Adding damage tends to  violate DC limits in many campaigns, even where the rules allow for it.  +2 Skill Levels with Blast, only to add damage, costs less than +1d6 Blast, 0 END, even without a limitation for "damage only".  Try getting away with a 6d6 Blast and 12 3 point skill levels in a typical Supers game!

Edited 13 hours ago by Hugh Neilson

 

My answer to the first part is, DC limits should take into account CV considerations.  A Martial Strike or Fast Strike may be at campaign limits...but an Offensive Strike goes over?  Well, it might be OK.  MIGHT.  Because Offensive Strike has some penalties associated.  

 

To the second part:  even without the limitation...yeah, it's a problem...but not as bad as Ranged Martial Arts DCs, which are 4 points.  Especially given that ranged maneuvers aren't all that diverse.  10 point min?  Attack 1:  +1 OCV, -1 DCV, +2 Range, +2 DCs.  5 points.  Attack 2:  +0 OCV, -1 DCV, +0 Range, +4 DCs.  5 points.  The first is a lightly tweaked Basic Blast, the second is a lightly tweaked offensive blast.  But yes, the rules do mention that Ranged DCs should be relatively uncommon and limited.

 

The problem is the standard one:  scaling.  The game does not, and IMO, cannot, scale in any unlimited way without issues.  It's quite sensible to cap many things, particularly those that are related (CV bonuses from maneuvers and skill levels, for example).

 

 

14 hours ago, Grailknight said:

I don't need any skill levels to Bounce a ranged attack

 

The rules I remembered said you do, needed to go look at 6th to make sure nothing had changed.

 

The rules are quite explicit, 6E2 44, Bouncing an attack Requires 1 Combat Skill Level per bounce.

 

PS: I do apologise if that was a joke - the second clause suggests that it was but it was probably still worth pointing out the actual rule (even if only for my pedantic brain).

Edited July 23, 2024Jul 23 by Doc Democracy

8 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

The rules I remembered said you do, needed to go look at 6th to make sure nothing had changed.

 

The rules are quite explicit, 6E2 44, Bouncing an attack Requires 1 Combat Skill Level per bounce.

 

PS: I do apologise if that was a joke - the second clause suggests that it was but it was probably still worth pointing out the actual rule (even if only for my pedantic brain).

 

You are correct. The following is from Hero System 6th Edition Volume 2 page 44:

 

Bouncing An Attack
A character with a Ranged Attack and Combat
Skill Levels that apply to it can Bounce the attack
off the right surface. The GM must decide what
surfaces are appropriate for Bouncing a given type
of attack. For each bounce the character wants the
attack to perform, the character must use one CSL.
(For example, if the character wants to ricochet
his attack off of three walls to hit the target from
behind, he has to allocate 3 CSLs to Bouncing.)
Determine the Range Modifier for the attack by
counting the length of the entire path of the attack.
A Bounce can give the character a Surprise Move
bonus (+1 to +3 OCV) if the target isn’t expecting
this type of attack (or possibly eliminate or reduce
the effects of the Behind Cover Combat Modifier).

The point is, and I accept I may not have chosen the best examples, that you could revisit the cost of skill levels, or the utility. Both approaches require a change to the RAW. I'm not sure what else you can do, but there's probably stuff you can think of. I have not worked out all the details, I'm just chatting.

 

I kinda like the idea of being able to use skill levels as MA manoeuvres. Martial arts should be cheaper than doing the same thing with skill levels, but if you're that skillful, you've probably picked up how to trip someone. 

 

I also liked the idea of being able to use skill levels to counter martial manoeuvres: say whatever the cost of buying the element can be countered by that many levels, so if someone is trying to throw you you can burn levels to guarantee avoiding being thrown (although you'd still take damage), it you could stick them on DCV and hope they don't roll well.

 

Not for every campaign, perhaps, but could work well in the right setting. 

 

Skill levels could also be used to add to Dex to determine round order or Con to avoid being stunned.

 

Yes, being able to abort to change your skill level allocation makes Dodge and Block very powerful, but you're stuck with that allocation until the segment after your next phase. Perhaps there should be a cost, for example having to burn one or more skill levels to abort to changing your skill levels. Lots of possibilities.

 

 

On a side note, one thing I have always done when GMing Hero, is limit the number of lower point skill levels characters can have. I have seen in events players giving their characters 10+ 2-point skill levels (sometimes even 20+ 2-point skill levels). I usually limit them to a maximum of five skill levels of 3-point or less. 

 

Edited July 23, 2024Jul 23 by Gauntlet

5 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

On a side note, one thing I have always done when GMing Hero, is limit the number of lower point skill levels characters can have. I have seen in events players giving their characters 10+ 2-point skill levels (sometimes even 20+ 2-point skill levels). I usually limit them to a maximum of five skill levels of 3-point or less. 

 

 

There's serious diminishing returns there, tho.  The 2 point levels can only be used for OCV;  they can't be converted.  It's only with 1 attack...I'm willing to be somewhat flexible (like a standard HA and an AVAD HA, both defined as personal powers)...but not too much so.  Note that multiple attacks with, say, TK punches, can't use PSLs, they have to be CSLs, in theory.  But figure...if the character starts at, let's say, 8-...really miserably bad...7 levels would be 15- and that's the 95% mark.  Anything more would be a waste.

 

Now granted:  at a con event, where you don't know the player...the concern is, the guy's gonna go for Called Shot, head or vitals, and a big chunk of these are for cancelling the called shot penalty.  That, I'd appreciate rather less.  As a side point, I'd consider Hero to be one of the worst systems for con events that are BYOC...just because the review/audit for Hero is more involved than for many systems.  

 

Generally, tho, yeah...Hero has no implicit bounds, and it has *so* many moving parts, so there will be abusive combos.

 

I've been working on notions of hybrid levels...what's a good costing for levels that are OCV only, only to offset range or multiple attack penalties, with a tight group of attacks?  That's a level style I like...they don't push the CV arms race because they can't increase your max OCV.  They address an area where I think the rules are excessively narrow.  I set it at 2 points, because even 3 point levels would apply to all the conditions...and allow much more, besides.  So, 3's too much.  1 is too cheap.  3 points for 2 levels, so 1.5?  Still feels pretty cheap.  8 points for a blaster type, where he can take serious stand-off advantage, OR can fire off 3 attacks at full OCV against each target...or the same target.  Even if each strike doesn't do a lot of STUN per se...if you can get all 3 to hit?  Should add up.  It feels balanced to me.

 

And as a general statement, EVERYTHING in the system that impacts an attack, but does not count in the active points of the attack...EVERYTHING is subject to abuse.  PSLs are IMO the least abusive, but man, sniping out at Range Mod 6 allows you to focus anything else on OCV or damage.  The defense is covered.  CSLs, martial maneuvers, martial DCs, talents like Weaponmaster or Deadly Blow...they have serious synergies with attack power constructions, and with each other.  And, anything you can get for 0 END becomes more significant as you move up to higher power levels and higher SPDs, where END becomes a greater and greater issue.

The reason I make those limitations isn't only because of going crazy with OCV, the other part is allowing characters to be better suited and much more flexible. A big part of the reason I don't allow so many low point levels is very similar to what you stated above. So you make a character who has twenty 2-point levels with Broadsword in a FH game, it is great for him (or her) when trying to hit, but they can't do much else. And should they lose that Broadsword they become practically useless. And if they cannot find another Broadsword, then the complaints will make you want to get a tire iron and educate them into submission. A character with that is better built has other options, and there for the player won't become extremely bored when something happens against them (such as a broken or lost Broadsword).

@Gauntlet, FWIW, when I create pre-gens, I usually give the character +1 2pt in among his other CSLs. The 2pt. Represent that he’s really good at this one thing. I think I got the idea from the dwarf sample character in FH4th.