Skill Levels

[unclevlad]

4 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

One of the problems I do see with 6e is the no limit to Damage Classes. You can have someone with a 1 pip HKA raise it to unlimited levels. I just can't see someone with a large bobby pin being able to do as much damage as a Two-Handed sword. I definitely believe that the HKA only being allowed to be doubled was a very good idea, something I keep even on 6th edition games. Now there may be the argument as to how good they are at using it, but still you poke someone in the eye with a large bobby pint it will hurt and be nasty but not even close to as nasty as having that Two-Handed sword going through your eye (and then of course through your brain and through the back of your skull).

 

Well, how far do you want to take that?  Should a 1d6 HA club be limited to 2d6, regardless of my actual STR?  How about a heavy rubber truncheon...definable as 2d6 Red Pen.  Is that limited to 4d6?  What sources apply...STR?  AMartial DCs?  Weapon master?

 

And what's the basis, particularly for normal damage attacks?  An HA, the character's STR?  If I have 20 STR, would I be limited to +4 DCs from martial maneuvers and damage classes?  Cuz this makes it extremely difficult to build a serious martial artist beyond street level.

 

One of my favorite concepts, at least in certain contexts, has a body based on basically pure carbon...nanofiber muscle bundles, layered graphene sheets for skin...the stuff's better than Kevlar.  One pretty clear option is...diamond is pure carbon.  So...it's not a reach to say he could shift his hand into diamond, or some more complex structure for greater overall resilience...but with a razor edge, or basically having a spear head at the end of his arm.  This wouldn't necessarily *add* damage...it would allow his blows from STR to be treated as killing attacks.  It's not that esoteric a concept.

 

And if I can back my 1d6 dagger with 30 STR, why not do 3d6K?  I can now drive it through your sternum. 

 

It isn't perfect, but it's far simpler to NOT limit extra DCs, then just leave it to the GM to be the final arbiter for any particular combination.

 

[Steve]

I guess this makes some sense as a straw can be driven into a tree with enough wind force behind it. I think Mythbusters tested that one.

 

This would also give rise to instances like in the John Wick films, who had stories told of him killing people armed only with a pencil.

[Hugh Neilson]

19 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

One of the problems I do see with 6e is the no limit to Damage Classes. You can have someone with a 1 pip HKA raise it to unlimited levels. I just can't see someone with a large bobby pin being able to do as much damage as a Two-Handed sword. I definitely believe that the HKA only being allowed to be doubled was a very good idea, something I keep even on 6th edition games. Now there may be the argument as to how good they are at using it, but still you poke someone in the eye with a large bobby pint it will hurt and be nasty but not even close to as nasty as having that Two-Handed sword going through your eye (and then of course through your brain and through the back of your skull).

 

The doubling max was in 2e to 5e.

 

My preference would be to remove STR adding to KAs at all. You buy additional KA. Perhaps you buy that limited KA "requires X STR per DC". The build for that Fantasy Hero greatsword is now a bit more complex (+ x DC's, limited to [STR - STR Min]/5) but you get the same gameplay result. 

 

"But more STR should do more damage!"  Sure. So Grond with a Hatpin (1DC KA, no Range - get rid of HKA entirely) hits for a combined attack - 1 pip HKA and 18d6 Punch.  Or, if that hatpin can add 1 DC from STR, Grond can choose 1/2d6 KA + 17d6 or or 1 pip HKA + 18d6.  But he can only use that 5 STR once in his Combined Attack.

 

By RAW, I can make my Claws (complete with STR adds) a Combined Attack with my STR (normal damage) but for some reason no one ever does.

 

One way or another, Grond hitting you with that hatpin should be much more devastating than some 10 STR guy off the street making the same attack.

Unclevlad highlights a lot of underlying issues to resolve.  Let me add another.  Why is a cap of doubling damage the right one?  Why not a 50% increase, or a tripling?

 

 

[Gauntlet]

Just because the damage might not be able to be brought up to an infinite amount doesn't mean that it can't kill. A one pip HKA can upped to 1/2d6 HKA with STR and if you are using hit locations and other rules then a hit to the head if they are not armored can kill a person with 10 BODY (3 BODY Damaged doubled to 6 which is over half Total BODY, Impairing Wound to the Head which can kill).  But at the same time I definitely do not believe that person with the same 1 PIP HKA can split a car in half with it, just not possible. It makes since that a weapon has limitations.

 

Now I am not stating that a double max has to be the only way to go, another option might be that if you do more than that type of damage you destroy the focus automatically, but even this should have some type of limitation. I just think that going to an intimate level just doesn't make sense.

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Just because the damage might not be able to be brought up to an infinite amount doesn't mean that it can't kill. A one pip HKA can upped to 1/2d6 HKA with STR and if you are using hit locations and other rules then a hit to the head if they are not armored can kill a person with 10 BODY (3 BODY Damaged doubled to 6 which is over half Total BODY, Impairing Wound to the Head which can kill).  But at the same time I definitely do not believe that person with the same 1 PIP HKA can split a car in half with it, just not possible. It makes since that a weapon has limitations.

 

 

Perhaps so, but meaningless.  Far too specific an example to use to try to derive logical, coherent, and *usable* rules.  And what is a "weapon"?  Are you assuming a focus?  Why?

 

5E's rules about adding damage are awful, specifically because they violate those principles.  STR-only strikes differ from strikes with an HA, which aren't the same as with an HKA.  This directly points to serious flaws elsewhere...or to simply very flawed thinking.  With a 20 STR, I can only add 4 DCs from maneuvers?  That either says maneuvers are too cheap...or that they want to compel all 'martial artists' to be pretty darn strong once you move past street-level brawlers.  The root problem with HKAs is the obscene, overwhelming *threat* that a killing attack represents, over a normal attack with the same DCs, coupled with the obvious temptation to buy low on the HKA and higher on the STR...because of all the freebies from that STR.  

 

22 hours ago, Steve said:

I guess this makes some sense as a straw can be driven into a tree with enough wind force behind it. I think Mythbusters tested that one.

 

 

Ever shoot an air rifle?  It's directly connected.  They'll shoot BBs or pellets.  The core damage rating of either is tiny...might not even be a pip.  What matters is the velocity the rifle can impart, depending on the compression the rifle can support.  That's also true with bullets...the mass of the slug matters, but so does the powder load, which translates to muzzle velocity.

 

This translates back, to a degree, to weapons.  The main, 3" blade of a Swiss Army Knife isn't designed or built to be a combat weapon.  it's a lot less about the theoretical damage rating, than about it not having the heft, edge, balance, etc. to carry a cut through.  Still...if a 50 STR slashes you with one?   I might well rule 

a)  the blade breaks, or splits off at the pivot, since it's a folding blade

b)  I'll let the blade survive, but the max STR you can add is halved.  

 

Now, make this a 4" tactical combat knife.  The damage ratings?  The SAK might be 1 pip, but the tactical is probably no more than 1/2d6.  Still...you can execute a *serious* slash/rake with one...or with a 50 STR behind it, you'll simply *plow* through an unarmored body.  The STR is acting like the extra powder, or extra air pressure...it increases the damage.

 

There's some things light, or short, weapons can't do well, altho in many cases they're hard to do regardless.  Severing bone?  Hard.  Decapitation?  HARD, because there's lots of tendons in there too.  For the sake of good taste:

 

Spoiler

At one point, we were shown real footage of Taliban terrorists decapitating someone.  The throat slash...easy enough.  But the rest...they pretty much sawed through the spine.  It wasn't a smooth cut....it was pretty gross.

 

A heavy, long blade has more momentum to lose...it won't be stopped as easily.  It has greater velocity at the point of contact, because the tip of the blade is moving faster than your hands, when swinging in an arc.

 

So there's plenty of qualifiers such that, sure, adding unlimited damage to a small base attack is inappropriate...but a flat-out, hard limit is even more inappropriate, IMO. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok, the “why should a harping with enough strength do a lot of damage? Being illogical is funny to me because essentially that is what a bullet is a harping with a lot of “strength” behind it.

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Just because the damage might not be able to be brought up to an infinite amount doesn't mean that it can't kill. A one pip HKA can upped to 1/2d6 HKA with STR and if you are using hit locations and other rules then a hit to the head if they are not armored can kill a person with 10 BODY (3 BODY Damaged doubled to 6 which is over half Total BODY, Impairing Wound to the Head which can kill).  But at the same time I definitely do not believe that person with the same 1 PIP HKA can split a car in half with it, just not possible. It makes since that a weapon has limitations.

 

Now I am not stating that a double max has to be the only way to go, another option might be that if you do more than that type of damage you destroy the focus automatically, but even this should have some type of limitation. I just think that going to an intimate level just doesn't make sense.

 

Adding Grond's 18d6 STR to 1 pip HKA is likely to kill a normal human or trash a car as easily as a 6d6+1 HKA.

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Adding Grond's 18d6 STR to 1 pip HKA is likely to kill a normal human or trash a car as easily as a 6d6+1 HKA.

 

Visualizing this...I see a punch getting thrown, with, let's say, spiked knuckledusters.  That makes for a legit question...not arguing the car's getting trashed, but how much of this, in this particular scenario, be treated as killing damage?  Probably not all of it.

 

What this says, tho, is different combinations reasonably lead to different levels of what should be considered normal damage, and what should be considered killing damage.  From a standpoint of writing the rules, tho...it means it's better to aim for flexibility and simplicity, then adjust.  

 

It's not any different from the note about using common sense, when it comes down to using a knife to cut through a wall, which is a specific example in the book, IIRC.

[Gauntlet]

There is the one route of getting rid of HKA and just having RKA, and if you want a HKA purchase RKA with no Range Limitation. Kinda the same way they do Hand to Hand Attack, simply Blast with Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4).

 

But I definitely am not sure how well this would work.

[unclevlad]

1 minute ago, Gauntlet said:

There is the one route of getting rid of HKA and just having RKA, and if you want a HKA purchase RKA with no Range Limitation. Kinda the same way they do Hand to Hand Attack, simply Blast with Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4).

 

But I definitely am not sure how well this would work.

 

For some KAs, maybe, but wielding a katana, say...someone who can put more power behind the strike should be doing more than someone who has less damage behind it.

 

Also, technically, there's a rules ambiguity that's ugly.  What damage boosters and skill levels apply?  With Blast No Range, you explicitly can't apply martial arts damage bonuses.  For HTH, you have to use some STR;  and a Blast No Range no longer counts as a ranged attack.  With skill levels, specifically for the All HTH or All Ranged...which applies?

 

It's just not sensible to strike HKA...unless you also want to strike HA.  And then you get into the serious inconsistency that STR doesn't apply when using a club.

 

Again:  simplicity and flexibility, with reasonable real-world fidelity in most cases, is better than trying to avoid corner cases.  Leave the corner cases to GM judgement.

[Gauntlet]

For simplicity sake I definitely will stay with the doubling Max rule, at least for heroic games. Superheroic games, not sure as the rules and concepts are completely different there. 

 

One note: Just because this is my way of doing things doesn't mean that I feel that if you don't go that way you are wrong, this is just the way that is comfortable for me when running.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Visualizing this...I see a punch getting thrown, with, let's say, spiked knuckledusters.  That makes for a legit question...not arguing the car's getting trashed, but how much of this, in this particular scenario, be treated as killing damage?  Probably not all of it.

 

What this says, tho, is different combinations reasonably lead to different levels of what should be considered normal damage, and what should be considered killing damage.  From a standpoint of writing the rules, tho...it means it's better to aim for flexibility and simplicity, then adjust.  

 

It's not any different from the note about using common sense, when it comes down to using a knife to cut through a wall, which is a specific example in the book, IIRC.

 

If we simply move to KA as its own power, independent of STR, then we have KA of the weapon + Normal damage from STR.

 

5 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

There is the one route of getting rid of HKA and just having RKA, and if you want a HKA purchase RKA with no Range Limitation. Kinda the same way they do Hand to Hand Attack, simply Blast with Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4).

 

I like simply KA, which would be ranged by default, like other attacks.  6e made adjustment powers ranged by default, IIRC, making this more consistent.

 

Why is HA a limited Blast rather than limited STR? STR, only for attacks, -1/4.  STR, 0 END (+1/2), only for attacks(-1/4), only for martial maneuvers (-1/2) then replaces Martial Arts added DCs.  Only to do normal damage?  -3/4 so STR, only does damage, 5/1.75 is about 2.86 per DC.  It can't be spread like a Blast can and it's no range.  Same price as Beam Effect NR Blast too.

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

For some KAs, maybe, but wielding a katana, say...someone who can put more power behind the strike should be doing more than someone who has less damage behind it.

 

This seems like an element of your build that you do more KA damage if you have STR to back it up, so extra DCs of KA that require at least X STR. For a Fantasy sword, it's buried in the background.  For Captain Fencer, it's likely a -1/4 similar to Unified Power as he won't buy more KA than his STR can back up.

 

If your STR enhanced a Flash or a Drain, we'd say "so buy more Flash/Drain - the fact that it comes from STR is just special effects".

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Also, technically, there's a rules ambiguity that's ugly.  What damage boosters and skill levels apply?  With Blast No Range, you explicitly can't apply martial arts damage bonuses.  For HTH, you have to use some STR;  and a Blast No Range no longer counts as a ranged attack.  With skill levels, specifically for the All HTH or All Ranged...which applies?

 

So clarify the rules. If it has no range, it is now HTH. That seems pretty easy to me.

 

Reclassifying MA damage bonuses as STR, only damage (or, if your default element is a KA, a Blast or a Drain, as boosts to that KA, Blast or Drain) seems to solve the martial arts issue, and HA as STR also resolves the issue.  You want to use a 30 STR Punch with your 9d6 No Range Blast, you do a 6d6 Punch + 9d6 Blast. You want STR to enhance your No Range Blast?  +6d6 NR Blast, must use 5 STR per 1d6.

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

It's just not sensible to strike HKA...unless you also want to strike HA.  And then you get into the serious inconsistency that STR doesn't apply when using a club.

 

+15 STR, only to do HTH damage (-3/4), OAF: Club (-1).  That was easy!

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Again:  simplicity and flexibility, with reasonable real-world fidelity in most cases, is better than trying to avoid corner cases.  Leave the corner cases to GM judgement.

 

The build should be designed to match real world fidelity.  If you are immune to temperature extremes, you should probably have better than 2 ED, at least against attacks using heat or cold, but you don't get it for free.

[Ninja-Bear]

7 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

There is the one route of getting rid of HKA and just having RKA, and if you want a HKA purchase RKA with no Range Limitation. Kinda the same way they do Hand to Hand Attack, simply Blast with Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4).

 

But I definitely am not sure how well this would work.

Honestly I’ve floated an idea to myself that is similar. STR doesn’t add damage like a RKA No Ranged and just Martial Arts added Damage. 

[Gauntlet]

23 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Honestly I’ve floated an idea to myself that is similar. STR doesn’t add damage like a RKA No Ranged and just Martial Arts added Damage. 

 

The big problem I see with that is what is the point of purchasing STR. I mean my 1 STR character does as much damage as the 100 STR character, but oh gosh, he can lift more, but in a majority of scenarios that is a so what. Of course another option could be increase the price of STR.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

The big problem I see with that is what is the point of purchasing STR. I mean my 1 STR character does as much damage as the 100 STR character, but oh gosh, he can lift more, but in a majority of scenarios that is a so what. Of course another option could be increase the price of STR.

Sorry I wasn’t clear. Characters would still do their normal Damage. You just wouldn’t use your STR to add to your Killing Damage.

[Gauntlet]

56 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sorry I wasn’t clear. Characters would still do their normal Damage. You just wouldn’t use your STR to add to your Killing Damage.

 

I apologize, I should have read your reply better.

[Ninja-Bear]

9 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I apologize, I should have read your reply better.

No problem! I do that to often myself.

[unclevlad]

21 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sorry I wasn’t clear. Characters would still do their normal Damage. You just wouldn’t use your STR to add to your Killing Damage.

 

OK, so I have a 30 STR and a 1 1/2 d6 HKA.  What am I rolling for damage?

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

OK, so I have a 30 STR and a 1 1/2 d6 HKA.  What am I rolling for damage?

 

I can't answer for Ninja Bear.  In my model, you are rolling what you paid for:

 

 - if you only use the KA, 1 1/2d6 HKA.

 - if you Strike with your strength, 6d6 Normal

 - if you do a Combined Attack, placing all your Strength behind the KA, 1 1/2d6 HKA and 6d6 Normal.

 

Just like a character who has a 6d6 Blast and a 1 1/2d6 RKA.

 

If you are using a Bastard Sword in a Fantasy game, where STR is intended to augment Weapons, and you are using it one-handed, 1 1/2d6 for the Bastard Sword + 1d6 for your STR over the 15 STR Min = 2 1/2d6 HKA.  And the Sword is built as 1 1/2d6 HKA (requires 13 STR; 1 1/2 handed) + 5 DCs (requires 5 STR over 13 STR min for each additional DC), 1 1/2 Handed.  Exactly like the 6e version.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I can't answer for Ninja Bear.  In my model, you are rolling what you paid for:

 

 - if you only use the KA, 1 1/2d6 HKA.

 - if you Strike with your strength, 6d6 Normal

 - if you do a Combined Attack, placing all your Strength behind the KA, 1 1/2d6 HKA and 6d6 Normal.

 

Just like a character who has a 6d6 Blast and a 1 1/2d6 RKA.

 

If you are using a Bastard Sword in a Fantasy game, where STR is intended to augment Weapons, and you are using it one-handed, 1 1/2d6 for the Bastard Sword + 1d6 for your STR over the 15 STR Min = 2 1/2d6 HKA.  And the Sword is built as 1 1/2d6 HKA (requires 13 STR; 1 1/2 handed) + 5 DCs (requires 5 STR over 13 STR min for each additional DC), 1 1/2 Handed.  Exactly like the 6e version.

 

To me, this is an area where the rules need massive clarification.  The Combined Attack section is much too short, and leaves out too much...like, how to combine the damage from disparate styles, and how then to apply defenses.  I think I'd be more supportive of this...in this combination, it's not too bad to work out...but not with the serious ambiguities.  You've argued, for example, if I have a 4d6 HA, and 20 STR, I can do 12d6 as a combined attack...I add 4d6 to the HA, then I add 4d6 again with Combined Attack.  Oh, and I only pay for the END for STR once.  That's nonsensical to me.  Also, if I buy a pair of 1+1 KAs using the 2x rule for them, for 25 points, I can make a combined attack with both, to get 2 1/2 d6 killing...when I'm getting 4 more DCs for just 5 points.  That's a major violation of paying for what you get.  I bring these up NOT to rehash those arguments, but to point out that they're huge holes in the rules, IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, unclevlad said:

To me, this is an area where the rules need massive clarification.  The Combined Attack section is much too short, and leaves out too much...like, how to combine the damage from disparate styles, and how then to apply defenses.  I think I'd be more supportive of this...in this combination, it's not too bad to work out...but not with the serious ambiguities.  You've argued, for example, if I have a 4d6 HA, and 20 STR, I can do 12d6 as a combined attack...I add 4d6 to the HA, then I add 4d6 again with Combined Attack.  Oh, and I only pay for the END for STR once.  That's nonsensical to me. 

 

Me too. That's why I am not arguing that.  I am arguing that HA should be limited STR.  You would therefore have a 20 STR and +20 STR, only adds to normal damage, so you would do 8d6, paying END for both the base and limited STR.

 

12 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Also, if I buy a pair of 1+1 KAs using the 2x rule for them, for 25 points, I can make a combined attack with both, to get 2 1/2 d6 killing...when I'm getting 4 more DCs for just 5 points.  That's a major violation of paying for what you get.  I bring these up NOT to rehash those arguments, but to point out that they're huge holes in the rules, IMO.

 

No, you can make a combined attack that does two separate 1d6+1 HKAs.  That's what you paid for, so that's what you get.

 

Just like a character with a 6d6 Blast and a 2d6 RKA can do a combined attack that does a 6d6 Blast and a 2d6 RKA, neither a 12d6 Blast nor a 4d6 RKA.

[Grailknight]

I'm going to take a new approach to the issue of STR. It requires some different thinking.

 

First, since 6th removed Figured Characteristics, we need to stop thinking of STR as a Characteristic. It's not, STR is an Attack Power. It should remain in the Characteristic bloc because it a nearly universal part of all PC/NPC's. Keep the cost at 5 points per DC for consistency.

 

Making this distinction eliminates the need for HA as its own Power. You'll be buying extra STR and any Limitations you apply (HA is all about Limitations.) will be to fit your character to concept and GM requirements. Not a huge change since HA, in genre, is exceedingly rare without some type of Limitation.

 

How does this affect Killing Attacks? Using STR for HKA's basis and Blast for RKA's, they become based on AVLD, Does BODY. Again, I'd leave the legacy cost of 15 points per DC. This translates well to weapons and also allows a Character that purchased a Blast to add it to the RKA as long as there are no usage conflicts. When adding, the KA is always the main Power and Doubling and Proration apply. 

 

There are still some issues around Lifting, Carrying and Throwing and the starting 10 STR but perfect balance is never going to be possible. That 10 STR has been there for 40+ years and hasn't made the game unplayable or even wildly unbalanced. I don't see a need to change this one aspect but YMMV.  

Edited August 4 by Grailknight

[unclevlad]

There's 2 fairly interesting topics here.

 

STR...treating HA as limited STR is the core construction approach in 6E, so from that standpoint, there isn't a problem.  You're suggesting a terminology shift.  My objection would be that the HA weapons like tonfas, staves, batons, or clubs are viewed as "not STR" per se.  There's also this note (6E1 231):

 

Quote

(Even though HA is in effect built from STR, generally speaking you shouldn’t treat it like STR — treat it like the distinct Power that it is. It’s not affected by Adjustment Powers that raise/lower STR, doesn’t add to a character’s STR for Grabbing or Squeezing targets, doesn’t apply to Move By/Through damage without the GM’s permission, can’t affect how much damage characters in Heroic campaigns do with weapons, and so on.)

 

In a sense, there isn't much real difference between draining STR and draining an HA...they both have the impact of reducing HTH damage.  But there's nuances that don't feel right, and it doesn't feel intuitive.  It's not STR, it's a club.  The problem to me isn't in HA, it's in Hugh's assertion that you can use STR twice in a combined attack.  I'd rather make it explicit that *can't* be done, if it really needs to be.  (By 6E1 231, HA is not an attack on its own, it adds to the damage from STR...see Using HTH Attack.)

 

Hmm, so what you're suggesting is eliminating the 2 killing attacks as standalone powers?  There's a 2-stage first point:  versus rPD or rED is only +1/2, so adding Does BODY makes it +1 1/2, not +2.  That said, you're rolling normal damage dice, so the risk of excessive BODY damage is essentially eliminated.  For 12 DCs, if you allow 5d6 AVAD rPD, Does BODY (technically 12.5 DCs)...more than 7 BODY is seriously unlikely.  The downside is, for cutting through barriers or entangles, you *want* killing damage dice.  Perhaps this could be done with an additional advantage....but...the problem is that advantages only apply to the base power, and the base power here isn't very expensive.  Even a +1 advantage...so it's net +2.5, or 3.5x...12d6 would be 3 1/2 d6 with the advantages.  You're still looking at a LOT of BODY.  And that's giving the advantage to convert to killing damage a fairly hefty cost...it's like buying a Megascale Teleport.  Tacking on Usable Simultaneously is usually cheap because the base teleport is typically cheap.  (You buy higher levels of Megascale to get longer range.)

I thought of maybe making it an *adder* instead...this could work for Blast -> RKA, but it's harder for reworking HKA because STR is a separate component, as is martial arts damage.  These actually work just fine with AVAD Does BODY, altho the math's a tad annoying.

 

Hmm.  Tack AP on top of it?  I'll start with double AP, so the total advantage goes to a simple +2.  So, 12 DCs is 4d6.  4d6 would average 4 BODY and 14 STUN, against 1/4 defenses.  That might work OK.  Against an entangle, it still works;  they're not typically hardened.  It still is probably lacking against a hardened steel plate...I'd still like some form of standalone killing-dice based attack form for water saws, cutting lasers, that sort of thing.  Many of these, at least at first glance, are RKAs...a water saw having Reduced By Range...so adding STR isn't an issue.  

 

Or maybe make killing damage 15 points for 2 DCs as the *base* cost...with rounding *against* the player.  (First DC is 8, second is 7.)  There's precedent for this, there's powers (or maybe adders) that work this way explicitly.  From a price standpoint, it's like a +1/2 advantage...but it's on the base cost, with the higher cost that implies for any other advantages you want to apply.  Even Reduced END.  So...a 1+1 d6K knife is 30 points.  15 STR would add 2 DCs to be 2d6K, for 45 active.  Ehhh...that feels like it's too little.  9d6 normal would do 9 BODY and far more STUN, and 2d6 will only reach or exceed 9 BODY less than 1/3 of the time.

 

Hm.  Not sure there's gonna be a clean solution that won't require pretty serious additional complexity.

[LoneWolf]

The rules for equipment in 6th edition still limit the weapon to doing no more than double the base DC of the weapon.  But at the GM’s option it can do more, but doing so causes the weapon to take the full amount of damage it does to the target.  In most cases this will cause the weapon to break, unless it is an unbreakable focus.  This rule is listed in the STR minimum section so might only apply to the extra damage from STR.

 

In the X-men comic book Wolverine’s claws are indestructible and the only limit to the damage they can do is how much force he can apply to them.  This was explicitly stated in the books marvel published detailing the powers of the characters.  

 

When you compare the damage of a KA boosted by STR to the damage a high STR character does with his STR it is not really that much more.  Take a character with 60 STR and a 1 pip KA.  Using his regular STR he does a maximum of 24 BODY and 72 STUN using STR.   Using the 1 pip KA he does 25 BODY and 75 STUN.  The increased damage from the killing attack is largely an illusion due to the changes in how killing attacks work in 6th edition.  If a campaign is using hit locations that is going to increase the damage the KA does, but in a standard super heroic game KA are no longer the effective way to take down a target they were under previous editions.   Buying up your STR is far more effective in dealing damage than purchasing a low point HKA.   
 

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

When you compare the damage of a KA boosted by STR to the damage a high STR character does with his STR it is not really that much more.  Take a character with 60 STR and a 1 pip KA.  Using his regular STR he does a maximum of 24 BODY and 72 STUN using STR.   Using the 1 pip KA he does 25 BODY and 75 STUN.  The increased damage from the killing attack is largely an illusion due to the changes in how killing attacks work in 6th edition.  If a campaign is using hit locations that is going to increase the damage the KA does, but in a standard super heroic game KA are no longer the effective way to take down a target they were under previous editions.   Buying up your STR is far more effective in dealing damage than purchasing a low point HKA.   
 

 

This is technically correct and grossly misleading at the same time.

 

I'd define high BODY damage as 1.5 per die of the normal damage dice.  So for 12d6, that'd be 18.  The easiest and most likely way to do this is six 6's, and the other six between 2 and 5...no ones.  This can be done in (12 choose 6) * 4^6 ways.  12C6 is 924;  4^6 is 4096.  So we're talking 4,000,000 or so, out of 6^12, or about 2.2 billion cases.  We're talking roughly 500 to 1 *against* seeing 18 damage.  (Note that seven 6's, one 1, and 4 2-5 has about 1 million cases.)  

 

Now, rolling 4d6+1 killing?  Rolling 17+ on 4d6 happens...24% of the time.  1 in 4.

 

For STUN?  50 STUN on 12d6 is 10%.  Slightly over 4.  54 STUN...4.5 per die...you're down to 2.5%.  50 STUN on 4d6+1 K can be done with max BODY, but that's remote.  16 rolled -> 17, so a 3 STUN...1/3 of the time.  16+ on 4d6 is basically 1/3 of the time, so the 50 STUN is 11%.  OK, trivial there.  54 STUN needs 17 rolled, 25%, and a 3...so over 8%, rather than 2.5%.  60 STUN on 4d6+1 K is 3%.

 

Yes, to be sure:  the KA is also VERY likely to do no damage after defenses.  And I agree, the risk under 6E is massively less...but KAs in 5E and earlier were massively broken.  It's half the reason why 5E limits the killing damage to double the KA...the other half is, of course, with figured characteristics, STR is totally broken.

 

KAs are massively variable.  Yes, as a routine attack in 6E, they're bad choices in most cases, particularly for PCs.  But you have to look at the overall picture...not the max cases.  Chances are you'll never see 20+ BODY on 12d6...the one truly insane damage roll I've ever seen was 19 BODY and 58 STUN on 11d6.  Even 25 BODY and 75 STUN on 4d6+1 is likely once, maybe twice ever, it's one in 3888.  No...look at the high damage risks.  For STUN, OK, 50 STUN normal and 51 STUN killing, that's a wash here.  But 54 STUN is still at the "I might need to worry about this" frequency.  

 

Also note that the KA's BODY damage requires resistant defenses.

 

I'll agree with the general conclusion...by and large, I'm not gonna worry about the 1 pip KA with 60 STR.  The increased chance of a one-shot cripple or stun, for PCs, tends not to be worth the "the monster laughs in your face as your pathetic attack barely scraps a scale" that's gonna be the result SO often.  But not the assertion that KAs don't have HIGH chances of increased damage.