Hello All! I am a new DM for this system and at the moment I am making characters to hone my builds and maybe even utilize them for my campaign (oho!) But I have come across a problem, I've gotten a bit... Multipower-happy, in which I utilize Multipower quite a bit when utilizing powers because, to me, it just makes sense when it comes to powers that are multifaceted in nature. I'll show some examples here and my thought processes behind it.


 

This first bit is from a power that allows the person to control their own inhibitions and bodily functions, because it was so wide-ranging, I put it into a Multipower. Easy enough, but it makes me feel like I shouldn't be doing all this? I'm saving so many points doing so which makes me question if I am doing it right.

Okay, heres another one, Possible Trigger Warning to HERO 6e Vets
 

Spoiler

Now this was my attempt at making a character that has multiple forms (kind of like a magical girl transformation, but they change depending on what kind of cassette tape they use). My first instinct was to go to multiform, but I soon realized that multiform was unbelievably cheap for what was essentially a character that had 4 different player characters! And while these forms did warrant a seperate character sheet for each, they do not warrant a fully different skillset, personality, and roleplay style (like someone turning into a dinosaur would), so I instead made them into a multipower in which I saw the prices go up to a good 200 for all four forms, something that I was glad to see considering how many powers this silly multi-form (but not multiform) guy had.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say here, when should I and when should I not use multipower? I'm so new to this yet I feel like as a DM I am abusing multipower and/or using it wrong! Is my first example a complete fluke on how I should understand multipower? Is my second example a complete mess trying to emulate a much easier solution? Anything would be helpful, love and peace.

- Chungis123

Edited August 9, 2024Aug 9 by Chungis123
mistook multiform for multipower, oops!

Multipower is an optional power structure subject to the GM's okay.  They do favor certain power sets over others, and for the record I would only allow powers that cost END to be used in a multipower.   They do make creating very versatile characters cheaply.  How do you feel about Variable Power Pools??  If everyone has one they become less special, which is what ever superhero should be.

     You should only allow Multipowers that you as GM are comfortable with, or why shouldn't everyone buy one??  It's an optional power structure for a reason, because it's subject to abuse.

Multipower is meant to represent a character with multiple powers that they cannot use all at the same time.  The ultimate example is Ultraboy from the Legion of Superheroes who has all of Superman's powers... one at a time.  He can be strong, or tough, etc.  That's the ideal way to consider the framework.

Why only powers that cost END?  You're still capped by the total number of points you've got available.

 

The basic answer is, a multipower is about choices.  You may have 3 attack powers...a standard Blast, an AVAD Blast, and a Flash, or some such combo.  You don't need all 3 at once...but it's not worth paying full price for each because there's so much overlap.  

 

A large MP may have multiple 'choice groups.'  Another common group would be a combat movement power, and a non-combat movement power.  A teleporter's a good example.  Combat teleport is primarily about half-move...you want a large base move.  Non-combat teleport is about range...most likely you'll want Megascale.  Non-combat teleport always takes an extra phase.  There's plenty of other 'choice groups' to consider.

 

My first thought is, you're making complex builds when you don't fully understand the system, and may not have the experience to realize how some things will play out.  Take that first slot...Boost 4 stats.  These are the nuances:

--2 of those are treated as defensive powers...CON and BODY.  The benefit is halved.

--Only to aid self...I'm not sure I'd allow this, at least at this level, because it's a Boost, and thus has to be maintained.  

--Requires a Characteristic Roll...you need to specify the characteristic, altho that might just not be showing up.  Note that there's an active point penalty to the roll, it's -1 per 10 points.  So your roll is at -4.  If the characteristic is, say, an 18, the normal roll would be 13-.  For this, it's 9-.  

--Side effect, Drain BODY.  OUCH!  That drain will last, and will kick in a LOT.  The half effect rule applies, but you're still talking 5 BODY average, and you won't recover it all for 2 full turns.

--Costs END throughout is what makes it a Boost, but 4 END per phase will add up in a hurry.

 

Note that the SPD boost is going to basically be +1 SPD;  getting 20+ on 4d6 is rare, about 5%.  Same issue with it failing frequently.  The STUN drain will cost you 10 STUN when it hits...that's not as bad as 5 BODY but it's risky.  And again the END you'll have to burn is high.

 

Aid on charges...I'd be leery about giving the full -1 here, too.  Aid is an Instant but with a lingering effect.  4 charges would last quite a while.

 

And generally...Unified Power is tricky.  It has that yellow caution for a reason.  None of the powers here are such that they'd be targeted for a drain or suppress very often, so there's a question of whether there's any real limitation.  That's even assuming the GM's likely to drain.  But if it does happen, note that everything gets drained at once.  It wouldn't take that much to basically render most of these useless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a quick MP very similar to ones I've used.  The concept's a martial arts hero with chi powers...heal/harm (almost universal with me, the power to heal is the power to harm) and teleport.  Maybe others, who knows, but they aren't in the MP.

 

Chi Powers:  Multipower, 62-point reserve

Hand-To-Hand Attack +3d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; +1) (34 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; +1), Does BODY (+1) (32 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

Healing BODY 2 1/2d6, Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (62 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)

Teleportation 23m, Position Shift, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (35 Active Points)

Teleportation 15m, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1m = 10 km; +1 1/4), Usable Simultaneously (all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor; +1 1/2) (60 Active Points)

 

What doesn't show here is that the combat teleport and either HTH attack can be used together....but the reserve actually isn't *quite* big enough to use the teleport and the healing.  (I built the MP as separate, standalone powers to see the real costs, then the MP.)  And of course, the long range teleport uses the whole thing.  So the character's got a nice half-move and attack, with the extra damage available.

 

Minor notes...extra time and concentration are largely flavor;  in most superhero books, healing isn't instant, and the character would be somewhat vulnerable due to the concentration.  The megascale gives him metro-area range...roughly 90 miles at a time.  And he can bring a group with him.  Concentration and Full Phase could get applied there too, for flavor and internal consistency.  

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, unclevlad said:

My first thought is, you're making complex builds when you don't fully understand the system, and may not have the experience to realize how some things will play out.  Take that first slot...Boost 4 stats.  These are the nuances:

--2 of those are treated as defensive powers...CON and BODY.  The benefit is halved.

--Only to aid self...I'm not sure I'd allow this, at least at this level, because it's a Boost, and thus has to be maintained.  

--Requires a Characteristic Roll...you need to specify the characteristic, altho that might just not be showing up.  Note that there's an active point penalty to the roll, it's -1 per 10 points.  So your roll is at -4.  If the characteristic is, say, an 18, the normal roll would be 13-.  For this, it's 9-.  

--Side effect, Drain BODY.  OUCH!  That drain will last, and will kick in a LOT.  The half effect rule applies, but you're still talking 5 BODY average, and you won't recover it all for 2 full turns.

--Costs END throughout is what makes it a Boost, but 4 END per phase will add up in a hurry.

 

Note that the SPD boost is going to basically be +1 SPD;  getting 20+ on 4d6 is rare, about 5%.  Same issue with it failing frequently.  The STUN drain will cost you 10 STUN when it hits...that's not as bad as 5 BODY but it's risky.  And again the END you'll have to burn is high.

 

Aid on charges...I'd be leery about giving the full -1 here, too.  Aid is an Instant but with a lingering effect.  4 charges would last quite a while.

 

And generally...Unified Power is tricky.  It has that yellow caution for a reason.  None of the powers here are such that they'd be targeted for a drain or suppress very often, so there's a question of whether there's any real limitation.  That's even assuming the GM's likely to drain.  But if it does happen, note that everything gets drained at once.  It wouldn't take that much to basically render most of these useless.

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Thank you! And yeah, its one of those things where the more I read about the system and learn about it through examples, I begin to realize the flaws in the builds I am creating. I will continue working on them in order to emulate their powers better, thank you so much for the help Maccabe, Unclevlad, & Christopher R Taylor!

People tend to forget is this...if your multiplier reserve is large enough you can have multiple powers active at once. At least that was how it was in 4ed, and I think 5ed also. So if your Multipower Reserve is 80 points you can have any number of powers active in the Multipower which adds up to the 80 point Reserve. You can have say a 40 point attack and a 20 poi t flight and a 20 point Resistant Protection active if you have the points in your reserve.

 

If they truly changed it, I don't see why. It wasn't hurting anyone in 4ed.

No, it still works like that, but GMs should be very cautious about handing out more points in a multipower than they would any other power.  As in, don't give the multipower dude 90 points so he can use two of his 45 point powers at once, and tell everyone else that 60 pts are their cap.

They haven't.  Note the MP I posted.  One HA and the combat teleport can be used at once.

 

1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

No, it still works like that, but GMs should be very cautious about handing out more points in a multipower than they would any other power.  As in, don't give the multipower dude 90 points so he can use two of his 45 point powers at once, and tell everyone else that 60 pts are their cap.

 

Would it be acceptable for someone to buy 2 separate 45 point attack powers, then fire off a combined attack with both?  Or how about one's bought in an MP, and the other's bought outside any framework?

 

Is the problem the fact that they're in an MP...or with the combined attack?

If you look at the rules, Multipower has an active cost (the pool).  Its a power.  If you want to have active point limits, then you can't just ignore them for multipowers, or power pools.  The purpose of a multipower is to force a player have to make choices when they use their powers.

It might look like you are saving point but in reality, you are paying more and making the character a lot more complex than it needs to be especially in the first multipower. You have too many duplicate slots that do basically the same thing.  You paid 47 real points for the first multipower and cannot boost all the stats at the same time.  Most of your slots are variable but to be useful you are going to need to use the full pool for any of the Aid slots.  

 

Instead of using a multipower of Aids simply buy the stats with the limitations Requires a roll, side effects and Unified power.  Buying 10 STR, 5 DEX 10 CON, 1 SPD, 10 BODY, +10 Running and +6 Swimming will cost you 25 real points, and you will be able to use all of the stats at the same time.  That leaves you with 22 unspent points.  

 

Multipowers should be used for powers you that you don’t use at the same time.  Complex multipowers can also slow down the game and annoy not only the GM but other players.   As a GM I would actually veto a character like this even if it is technically legal. 

 

Also, unless you have another power outside the multipower using unified power on it is probably not legal.  Multipowers are usually considered one power, and that unified power requires a minimum of two powers.  

Edited August 14, 2024Aug 14 by LoneWolf

I wasn't able to find it but I do believe that if you use Unified Power in a Multipower then drains double up on the slot as they drain the Multipower point value and the individual slots as well. Kind like the way it did in 5th Edition with Elemental Controls. 

I don’t remember seeing that rule.  Considering the fact that powers with the unified power limitation are not reduced more when the drain affects multiple powers I doubt it works like that.  If I have a drain the paid the advantage to drain two stats at once and that does not drain more why would being in a multipower cause the drain to more points?  

 

If the Unified Power is applied to both the pool and the slots it will drain both.  Reducing the pool will not cause the slots to lose more points, but will restrict what powers can be used. If the MP is the typical attack MP with fixed slots equal to the pool it does not make much difference.  But if the pool has a higher value than the slots and uses variable slots, it will make have more of an effect because the pool will be smaller.  
 

I didn't say that it did drain more when multiple powers were drained. I was just saying that if put on a Multipower it doesn't just drain the individual slots it drains how much the slots can use in total as well which can be a problem at times.

Question everyone, what do you all think of the second multipower example? Should I have just went with multiform instead of doing separate multipowers?

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

If you look at the rules, Multipower has an active cost (the pool).  Its a power.  If you want to have active point limits, then you can't just ignore them for multipowers, or power pools.  The purpose of a multipower is to force a player have to make choices when they use their powers.

 

No.  it's not a power.  That's been said by the rules gurus.  It's a FRAMEWORK and the active points limit does not apply to the overall framework.  That's even what the chapter for them is *called*.  

 

And why can't I have multiple movement powers...pick 1...and multiple attack powers...pick 1?  Do I *really* need to buy 2 MPs?  That's utterly absurd.  It's even more ridiculous in a VPP, where pool size and control size have been decoupled.

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It's a FRAMEWORK and the active points limit does not apply to the overall framework

 

I am not aware of a rule that states this, and the framework has an active cost.  If you don't want to have to choose between what powers you use, you don't use a multipower; its not just a way to make powers cheaper.  They're cheaper because of the point limits that force you to make those choices.

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I am not aware of a rule that states this, and the framework has an active cost.  If you don't want to have to choose between what powers you use, you don't use a multipower; its not just a way to make powers cheaper.  They're cheaper because of the point limits that force you to make those choices.

 

For example, if you have a multipower with multiple attacks you can only use one (normally), should you have the attacks purchased out of a multipower you could use them at the same time as a multiple attack. This is explained on page 73 of the Hero System 6th Edition Volume 2.

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

No.  it's not a power.  That's been said by the rules gurus.  It's a FRAMEWORK and the active points limit does not apply to the overall framework.  That's even what the chapter for them is *called*.  

 

And why can't I have multiple movement powers...pick 1...and multiple attack powers...pick 1?  Do I *really* need to buy 2 MPs?  That's utterly absurd.  It's even more ridiculous in a VPP, where pool size and control size have been decoupled.

 

The only real reason I might purchase multiple Multipowers is with foci. That makes them different foci, so if one is taken or destroyed, the other one is available. The only other reason might be if you have two multipower with completely different sets of limitations that could be put on the Multipower itself, not just the individual slots, that way it would cost less while still allowing you to utilize the two sets of powers at the same time. 

3 hours ago, Chungis123 said:

Question everyone, what do you all think of the second multipower example? Should I have just went with multiform instead of doing separate multipowers?

 

You might gave noticed that we get caught up in minutiae. 🙂

 

I really don't like multiform for player characters, it is too easily abused.  I am quite a big fan of doing things the way you plan with the second multipower, it is cleaner and a ton less bureaucracy.

 

I have not looked at the detail in there but I do think that the approach is a decent one.

 

Doc

Edited August 15, 2024Aug 15 by Doc Democracy

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

 

The only real reason I might purchase multiple Multipowers is with foci. That makes them different foci, so if one is taken or destroyed, the other one is available. The only other reason might be if you have two multipower with completely different sets of limitations that could be put on the Multipower itself, not just the individual slots, that way it would cost less while still allowing you to utilize the two sets of powers at the same time. 

 

Yeah, those are the reasons I can think of offhand.  *Alternately*...because the largest power an MP allows, is the size of the pool.  VPP does this better.

 

CRT:  swear I posted this, but might've been into the wrong thread, I guess...

 

 

Plus, I really think that putting limitations on just the slot is kinda worthless. You might save a couple of points (and I mean 1 to 2 points), but that's it. It still takes up the exact same amount of points as it does without the limitation. While if the limitation is on the multipower itself you gain the actual points for the limitations, not just 1 or 2.

16 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Plus, I really think that putting limitations on just the slot is kinda worthless. You might save a couple of points (and I mean 1 to 2 points), but that's it. It still takes up the exact same amount of points as it does without the limitation. While if the limitation is on the multipower itself you gain the actual points for the limitations, not just 1 or 2.

 

That's true if the MP has only 1 power type (like attacks) or is artificially limited to basically only having 1 power active, as the Active Pointers seem to want.  OTOH, if you have multiple simultaneous powers, you can define the *essence* of choice.  You have a teleport that's got Usable Simultaneously...eating up more pool than just your personal teleport.  OK, then you're limited to an attack power that has some extra limitations after using *that* teleport until you can switch.  

6 hours ago, Chungis123 said:

Question everyone, what do you all think of the second multipower example? Should I have just went with multiform instead of doing separate multipowers?

 

Use Multiform 

 

Putting extra time on SPD is a very bad idea and should be avoided at all costs.  Changing SPD can usually only be done in Post 12 unless you are using adjustment powers.  There is an optional rule that allows you change SPD during the turn, but when you do that, you can only act once both SPDs would have been able to go.  With SPD in two separate MP, it is going to be a bookkeeping nightmare. 

 

If you want multiple different forms use a multiform that is what they are designed for.  If you are using Hero Designer, you can there is an easy way to simplify the character creation process.  Create a character with everything that is common to all characters and save it off.  This includes minimum common stats and complication. Save this character and call it something like base form.  Then open this character and add any individual abilities for the form and save that character under a new name.   
 

6 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

That's true if the MP has only 1 power type (like attacks) or is artificially limited to basically only having 1 power active, as the Active Pointers seem to want.  OTOH, if you have multiple simultaneous powers, you can define the *essence* of choice.  You have a teleport that's got Usable Simultaneously...eating up more pool than just your personal teleport.  OK, then you're limited to an attack power that has some extra limitations after using *that* teleport until you can switch.  

 

Even with that it is pretty useless to put the limitations on the individual slots. If you are going to make a multipower that uses a number of powers that you can switch point values in each, just don't bother with individual limitations unless the power absolutely requires it for your special effect, otherwise it is rather worthless. The reason to use a multipower so you can use less points by picking and choosing what you want/need.

 

Though to be honest, there are a number of things you don't want to use a multipower for: number one being defenses. If you are fighting one individual or a number of individuals all with the exact same attack, it might be okay but be in a fight against a group that are all with different attacks, you are much better off just purchasing defenses without using a multipower.

 

Though I will have to admit, I have found multipowers that are just attacks the only ones of any value. Anything else I have found it much better to just purchase the powers.