Cutting or Sculpting Transform

[Foxiekins]

If a speedster is able to control their application of damage to an object to a fine degree, they should be able to drill holes into an object with their fingers, cut a slot into a wall, or sculpt a rigid object...  I want to represent this as a Transform, that transforms a rigid/brittle object into the same object, but with selective portions of itself removed...  What degree of Transform would you class this as...?

[Doc Democracy]

This sounds like SFX to me.  I am wondering if you can tell me what all this sculpting will help you do?

 

The handholds to help climb, the others I am not so sure.  I wonder if you might find a very small cosmic power pool might work better?

 

Both the slots and sculpting could just be applying a HKA, or they might be the SFX of something else.

[Foxiekins]

On 8/9/2024 at 8:01 AM, Doc Democracy said:

This sounds like SFX to me.  I am wondering if you can tell me what all this sculpting will help you do?

 

The handholds to help climb, the others I am not so sure.  I wonder if you might find a very small cosmic power pool might work better?

 

Both the slots and sculpting could just be applying a HKA, or they might be the SFX of something else.

Well, the sculpting would be to create sculptures out of any rocks laying about...  A sculpter uses hammer and chisel, but someone who can shatter stone with their fingertips because of speed should be able to use that...  Drilling the slot would mainly be to cut a hole through a wall others could enter and exit through...

[LoneWolf]

Sounds like you need more than a single power to do what you want.  A multipower would be the way to go. 

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Foxiekins said:

Well, the sculpting would be to create sculptures out of any rocks laying about...  A sculpter uses hammer and chisel, but someone who can shatter stone with their fingertips because of speed should be able to use that...  Drilling the slot would mainly be to cut a hole through a wall others could enter and exit through...

 

So far, we have a Cosmetic Transform with an RSR-Sculpting and Tunnelling. Can we do anything else?

[LoneWolf]

There are a lot of powers a speedster could have based on being able to move.   

 

Change environment based on moving things
Teleport usable as an attack based on grabbing things (Probably at range)
Deflection based on knocking things out of the air
Desolidification based on phasing through things.
Entangle based on tying someone up
 

[unclevlad]

I'd lean to Minor Transform rather than cosmetic, particularly as it has encounter-related uses.  It's also working against hard objects, and making permanent, fairly significant alterations.  

 

Still fairly cheap.

[Gauntlet]

Brick Transformation Abilities.

 

Against Power Armored Individuals, Transform into having 0 STR by crushing the armor so much it now works as an Entangle.

 

Or you could transform the armor focus into an Entangle, with a DEF equal to the Natural rPD/rED of the Armor (no bonus from Force Fields).

[Doc Democracy]

14 hours ago, Foxiekins said:

Well, the sculpting would be to create sculptures out of any rocks laying about...  A sculpter uses hammer and chisel, but someone who can shatter stone with their fingertips because of speed should be able to use that...  Drilling the slot would mainly be to cut a hole through a wall others could enter and exit through...

 

If you have access to a chisel and a hammer, you can, over time, do these things for free.  If you are not looking to significantly reduce the time, I would charge no points.

 

If you want to be able to sculpt David then I would want some artistic ability, the cost based on a number of factors.  If you want average artist level sculptures in seconds, then transform is the route. 

 

I have issues if Transform was being used to tunnel, or replace existing powers (like tunnelling).

 

That is why I suggested a cosmic power pool for Speed tricks and @LoneWolf suggested a multipower, it gives you some flexibility.

[LoneWolf]

What level of transform is needed depends on what you can do with it.  A cosmetic transform would be something like making a sandcastle, or rearranging things the thing on a desk or table.  A minor transformation would allow you to assemble an item from parts or to create small simple objects. Major transformation would be required for large or complex objects or creating objects from raw material. The character will still need to have any relevant skills in order to accomplish any tasks.  That is actually specified in the description of transformation (6E1 Page 306).  Something like building a wall is going to require major transformation.

 

Unless the player is completely familiar with the Hero System and can create powers on the fly in his head, I would strongly advise against a VPP.  Or if one is used restrict what the character can do to a prewritten list of powers.  I have seen a VPP bring a game to a complete stop when used by many characters. Creating powers in Hero System can be fairly complex and requires a lot of math to figure out the final result.  Unless the player has a complete understanding of the rules and very good mathematical ability do not allow them to use a cosmic VPP in combat. 

[Foxiekins]

13 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

What level of transform is needed depends on what you can do with it.  A cosmetic transform would be something like making a sandcastle, or rearranging things the thing on a desk or table.  A minor transformation would allow you to assemble an item from parts or to create small simple objects. Major transformation would be required for large or complex objects or creating objects from raw material. The character will still need to have any relevant skills in order to accomplish any tasks.  That is actually specified in the description of transformation (6E1 Page 306).  Something like building a wall is going to require major transformation.

 

Unless the player is completely familiar with the Hero System and can create powers on the fly in his head, I would strongly advise against a VPP.  Or if one is used restrict what the character can do to a prewritten list of powers.  I have seen a VPP bring a game to a complete stop when used by many characters. Creating powers in Hero System can be fairly complex and requires a lot of math to figure out the final result.  Unless the player has a complete understanding of the rules and very good mathematical ability do not allow them to use a cosmic VPP in combat. 

The only character I ever had with a VPP was a magician...  I had variable limitations at preset levels, so I could do the math on the fly in my head...  Never known anyone else who could, so I agree...

[Gauntlet]

The only way I would allow a VPP would normally be magic and in a Fantasy hero game for wizards. The thing is that they have to have their spells written up and learned before they can be part of the VPP, this makes them rather easy to figure out which are able to be used at any one time and at the same time makes it easy to learn new spells. But even with this you need someone with decent math skills.

Edited August 12 by Gauntlet

[Doc Democracy]

I have a character in a current, but on hiatus, game where the character is mostly a VPP.

 

The stick is that they can mimic powers they can sample/analyse, but the powers are on a conveyor belt. 

 

If there is room in the pool, it is available along with the others. If there is not room in the pool, then the "oldest" power drops off the other side.

 

It has been an interesting concept as the player tries to predict and manage the powers they need while making the most of the flexibility he has to do absolutely anything. 1/2 phase to analyse, then use the power.

 

I do the maths, sometimes it is an approximation but I would rather than than be exact, quibbling over random points.

 

As long as it is in the ballpark, I am reasonably content.

 

Doc

[LoneWolf]

I would say that most of the regulars on these forums have a good enough understanding of the game, so the only question is how good their math skills are.  

 

VPP with the right restriction on them are not so bad, but a cosmic pool is something that should rarely be allowed.  A gadget pool that only changes in the lab is not a problem.  A mimic pool that only duplicates others power is essentially limiting it to prewritten powers.  As long as you do not allow creating power on the fly VPP can work for most players. 
 

[unclevlad]

One thing that helps manage a broad VPP is to "allocate" the pool points.  For attack powers...let's specify 12 DCs and 1/2 END.  Gives us a 75 point control size, in most cases.  Common limits?  Limited Range rarely hurts much, so it's typical on my attack powers.

 

So from there...ANY 12 DC attack power works.  4d killing, 12d normal, 11d sight and sound flash, 6d versus power def, 6d drain.  So does 8d with LOS or a +1/2 Indirect...don't worry about the fact that the reduced END on the AVAD or LOS would actually be slightly cheaper.  It won't be enough different to allow you do to a lot.  I'm also thinking in DCs here...not points per se.  Say you're considering a "harm" spell...NND vs. Power Def, Does BODY.  AVAD would be easy, it's +2, so for 12 DCs, you get 4d6.  NND makes it +1 1/2.  12/2.5 = 24/5 = 4.8.  So I can fit 4 1/2 d6 into 12 DCs.  You can get even fancier and just say the root blast is 12 DCs...I've got N DCs of additional damage from martial DCs or maneuvers, or skill levels, or whatnot...so my final blast is 12+N DCs.  Convert THAT back to dice.  This is the kind of approach that a computer game can do...on the fly, never worrying about rounding until the end...that the system doesn't expect of players.  Reasonably so.  But if you think like this?  It's not hard.

 

For defenses, you can use the same approach.  In 6E, it has to be Armor;  base PD/ED are special powers.  OK, well, that also allows Flash, Mental, and Power defenses...they'll be resistant, thus expensive.  But again...allocate a block of points, however much you want.  They're all conveniently 3/2 cost, so if you 'allocate' 60 points to defenses, that's 15/15 PD/ED and 10 Flash (sight), say.  Or 12/12 hardened and 10 Flash, not hardened.  

 

Then the last chunk is typically movement.  Here, you might define 2 levels...your combat movement points will be limited by your total pool size, once you look at the costs of everything else.  For example:

--attacks:  75 active, 60 real

--defenses:  60 active, 48 real (Nonpersistent)

 

That's 108 pool size.  Say I can afford 140.  I've got 32 points for *combat* moves...Flight 20, Position Shift, 1/2 END is 31.  Bingo.  For non-combat flight...I'm not limited.  I can't use the blast.   The limit is the active points, then.  So I can build a 75 point Flight power.

 

There's room to play.  You can add more defenses if you're willing to sacrifice some movement, or if you can apply a limitation onto the attack...an additional 1/4 limit like No KB will take the 60 active down to 50, so can add 12 active points to your defenses.

 

In a true do-anything pool, I'll also throw in a chunk for a single, unusual power...Invis, perhaps Desolid.  

 

You're not thinking of juggling the entire pool...just parts of it.  It's much more manageable this way.

[Grailknight]

Umm, Characteristics are Standard Powers.

Edited August 12 by Grailknight

[Duke Bushido]

I have been trying not to say this, but personally, I think T-form is over-thinking it.  I would buy "sculptor" as a super skill and call it good.

 

 

[unclevlad]

4 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Umm, Characteristics are Standard Powers.

 

Ehh...yeah, you're right, my bad.  There's also negation;  if just considering PD/ED, then you might have Armor plus STUN-only damage negation.  KAs your issue?  Shift some out of the negation, into the armor to stop more BODY.  Attacks are focused on PD mostly?  Shift some there.  Or ED, same thing.  These are a LOT simpler overall.

[Foxiekins]

On 8/12/2024 at 6:34 PM, Duke Bushido said:

I have been trying not to say this, but personally, I think T-form is over-thinking it.  I would buy "sculptor" as a super skill and call it good.

 

 

Where are the rules for super skills, pray tell...?

[Duke Bushido]

Couldn't tell you in 6e; the most recent rules I can reference without having to open a book (and I have made no secret that it will be a very strange set of circumstances that compels me to open 6e  again) is 5e, p140 or 141 (memory isnt as good as I thought it was when I started this post).

 

This is an entry in the Powers section detailing how,in 5e,one would buy a skill as a power and what changes one might have to make to the costing, etc.

 

As I think about it,I don't actually remember exactly _when_ skills-as-powers was officially codified,but I am pretty sure we were all doing before it was ever made official.

 

The most obvious changes are that Powers will cost END by default, amd you will have to so something about characteristic-based skills.  I think 5e said calculate the roll at the base price as if the characteristic had a base score of zero and then buy up to the level of effectiveness you want.  6e has the same author,  so I doubt that changed much.

 

For what it is worth, aome dolks always did it that way, others continued to let the improved characteristic benefit the power (which makes perfect sense: your improves DEX improves your CV (pre-6e) and your improved STR improves your damage and your throwing range, etc.

 

Others still calculates the base roll as if the Characteristic was 10, since that was (pre-6e) the default everyman value for a primary characteristic.

 

I suppose I should have said "skills as powers," since both of the Long editions prefer to specify a difference between skills used to build powers ('skills as powers')  and powers used to build skills ('super skills').  I get it, obviously: they are _texhnically_ (ie, "the best kind of") separate things, but I always assumed the need to encode them as separate things was just the lawyer part of him taking over... 

 

anyway, if that doesnt help, I am sure a 6e player will be morw than happy to cite the information you seek.

 

 

[unclevlad]

The Powers chapter of 5ER has a Skills entry.

 

There is no real difference in how the skill's handled when purchased in this manner.  What's allowed is, done like this, you're allowed to apply power mods;  Focus is probably the most common.  I could see OIAID too.

 

The issue with a characteristic-based skill arises when the skill's on a focus...it isn't a general issue.  It's also NOT 10...for a focus, generally, the characteristic is 0, so the roll's 9-.

 

It's all spelled out in 5E, and at a glance, 6E retained the same text.

 

4E says this:

 

Quote

Normally, characters cannot buy Skills as part of a device or a weapon. The GM may, as an optional rule, allow characters to buy certain Skills with equipment or combined with Powers, Power Limitations, etc. For instance, a GM
might allow a character to purchase Combat Skill Levels with a rifle, subject to certain Limitations such as the Focus Limitation. Or some magical spells may include Skills as part of their effects. The GM should only allow this in limited circumstances.

 

This is...awful rules language.  It has more holes than it has substance, so I can completely see where house rules would be needed.