My existential crisis about SPD

[Gauntlet]

41 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well no game can be balanced perfectly, that's what the GM is for; to balance things out in play.  In my opinion, balance is highly overrated.  What we need is entertainment and fun.  If everyone has fun in a game with Superman surrounded by street level characters, then you're doing it right.

 

Very true, the fun of the game is definitely based on the GM and the Players. I have played many games with a poor system but a Great GM and it was absolutely Great, while at other times with a Great System and a Poor GM, and it was a waste of time.

[Steven Wayde]

Good topic. Extra SPD is also de facto extra Movement, which I think is unrealistic.

 

I like the idea of having Movement be limited to an amount per Turn instead of per Phase. 24m of Running at SPD 3, for instance, would allow 8m of movement per Phase. At SPD 4, 6m, etc.

 

This would distinguish a merely fast mover from one who is a skilled combatant able to attack more often.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think there's something in that, detatching movement from speed would make things less complicated in some ways but more in others.

[Gauntlet]

A lot of times when I make characters with high Speeds I decrease their running.

[Doc Democracy]

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think there's something in that, detatching movement from speed would make things less complicated in some ways but more in others.

 

I think that the END reserve is a decent template for this.  Buy it per turn and then pro-rate it for the character so that they have a certain amount per phase.  So you know a SPD 4 character might be more inclined to buy running in multiples of 4 as it would make later table use easier, but the cost should reflect how fast you run, not also to be subject to how much SPD you buy.

 

Doc

[LoneWolf]

I don’t think using a per turn SPD is a good idea.  As Gauntlet pointed out you cans simply reduce the movement of a high SPD character to achieve this.  

 

It will create a lot of problems for some concepts and give other concepts advantages. Characters focusing on HTH attacks will often need to take several full moves to reach their targets.  Attacks relying on velocity become will be weaker.  Creating a fast character is going to cost a lot more.  Ranged characters will be more powerful.  

 

Even in real life most people move at different speeds.  By having two stats that affect movement it is easier to achieve this than if there is only 1.      
 

[Steve]

After some thought, changing movement to a Turn-based structure would need to involve repricing movement, which then invites more complications.

 

Reducing movement rates to offset extra SPD is the simplest solution to making a character that can have more actions but not be able to clear more distance per Turn.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The drawback with shorting yourself on movement to emulate movement per phase is that it makes fast characters have tiny half moves.

[Gauntlet]

31 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The drawback with shorting yourself on movement to emulate movement per phase is that it makes fast characters have tiny half moves.

 

Yes, and if you go the other way of having a high running with lower SPD then you spend more phases without having an action. Just gotta figure out what works best for your character. One thing I love about Hero is you usually have a ton of choices as to how to do anything.

[Steve]

It would probably be pretty rare to do, and maybe going pretty hardcore on a concept of having more actions but not faster movement by selling back base movement to offset buying points of SPD.
 

I mean, who would buy two points of SPD then sell off half their running, swimming and leaping?

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

It would probably be pretty rare to do, and maybe going pretty hardcore on a concept of having more actions but not faster movement by selling back base movement to offset buying points of SPD.
 

I mean, who would buy two points of SPD then sell off half their running, swimming and leaping?

 

True but if you need the points it is a way to get some back.

[Doc Democracy]

7 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I don’t think using a per turn SPD is a good idea.  As Gauntlet pointed out you cans simply reduce the movement of a high SPD character to achieve this.  

 

It will create a lot of problems for some concepts and give other concepts advantages. Characters focusing on HTH attacks will often need to take several full moves to reach their targets.  Attacks relying on velocity become will be weaker.  Creating a fast character is going to cost a lot more.  Ranged characters will be more powerful.  

 

Even in real life most people move at different speeds.  By having two stats that affect movement it is easier to achieve this than if there is only 1.      
 

 

I don't understand what you mean.  If RunningGuy (SPD 6)  buys +12m of Running then it costs 12 points and he moves 144m per turn. His nemesis TheJogger (SPD 5) spends the same 12 points on Running but only gets to move 120m per turn.

 

If we move to turn based purchase of Running, then we would need to decide what the base giveaway was.  I suggest everyone gets 24m/turn, like a base normal.

 

If we want to keep the scale similar to now, then RunningGuy gets 120m/turn for 12 points.  The high difference is that TheJogger also gets 120m/turn for that 12 points. The pricing is 10m/turn for 1 point.

 

RunningGuy, pro-rated moves at 24m/phase, the Jogger moves at 29m/phase.

 

My problem with that is, the way HERO movement works, you get odd leaps in distance and, if you are picky about the detail, then nit all phases would have the same movement in meters.

 

After segment 12, RG has moved 24m, TJ has moved 29m

After segment 2, RG has moved 48m, TJ has moved 29m

After segment 3, RG has moved 48m, TJ has moved 58m

After segment 4, RG has moved 72m, TJ has moved 58m

After segment 5, RG has moved 72m, TJ has moved 87m

After segment 6, RG has moved 96m, TJ has moved 87m

After segment 8, RG has moved 120m, TJ has moved 116m

After segment 10, RG has moved 144m, TJ has moved 144m

 

I guess, attacks relying on velocity become a bit weaker (for high SPD cgaracters) as you remove the free velocity per phase they get from the everyman running.

There is no need for creating fast characters to be more expensive, that comes down to setting the pricing.

If movement cost is not affected then ranged attacks gain nothing in cost benefit.

 

Doc

[unclevlad]

9 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

It will create a lot of problems for some concepts and give other concepts advantages. Characters focusing on HTH attacks will often need to take several full moves to reach their targets.  Attacks relying on velocity become will be weaker.  Creating a fast character is going to cost a lot more.  Ranged characters will be more powerful.  

 

 

Projectors and blasters also use movement considerably...full and half moves.

 

Creating a fast character may, or may not, be more expensive...as was noted, everything related to movement would have to be repriced, and the cost basis is far from clear.  This even includes the basic non-com multiple.  That said, it does feel VERY likely to be a lot more complicated...ESPECIALLY moving up to higher-power characters.

 

Also note that Leaping's costing becomes...truly bizarre.  Combat leap takes a phase...non-combat leaps take...variable time.  To be sure:  I suspect high-end non-combat leaping is VERY rare.

 

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

I don't understand what you mean.  If RunningGuy (SPD 6)  buys +12m of Running then it costs 12 points and he moves 144m per turn. His nemesis TheJogger (SPD 5) spends the same 12 points on Running but only gets to move 120m per turn.

 

If we move to turn based purchase of Running, then we would need to decide what the base giveaway was.  I suggest everyone gets 24m/turn, like a base normal.

 

If we want to keep the scale similar to now, then RunningGuy gets 120m/turn for 12 points.  The high difference is that TheJogger also gets 120m/turn for that 12 points. The pricing is 10m/turn for 1 point.

 

RunningGuy, pro-rated moves at 24m/phase, the Jogger moves at 29m/phase.

 

As it is now, RunningGuy spends 40 points for his SPD *and* movement.  Your suggestion forces him to spend the 40 on SPD, then 12 more...or, for that matter, 5 more just to stay where he was, at 10 m/t per point. 

 

If the base complaint is that higher SPD -> greater movement is 'unrealistic'...yeah, maybe.  Acting fast and moving fast are 2 different things, for sure.  So what?  This is a GAME.  Movement per phase fits naturally.  Movement per turn is awful.  It's awkward, as your list of the issue of determining movement during a phase.  Of course, the simple fix is 12 meters/turn...or 1 meter per segment...because that's how I'd measure this.  Now all you have is the erratic spacing of phases.

 

There's no value here that I can see.  Especially in supers.  And IMO it's DARN sure not worth adding multiple approaches to something simple, for different genres.

 

3 hours ago, Steve said:

It would probably be pretty rare to do, and maybe going pretty hardcore on a concept of having more actions but not faster movement by selling back base movement to offset buying points of SPD.
 

I mean, who would buy two points of SPD then sell off half their running, swimming and leaping?

 

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

True but if you need the points it is a way to get some back.

 

Assuming you don't buy Flight or Teleport, it's an incredibly stupid approach.  Swimming, not so much, I'll grant, as that won't come into play, but that's just scraping points to scrape points.  You can only get 2.  Same with the leap.  The running...gee, all of 6 points!  Wow!  Major savings!  And for it?  Barring alternate move, your full and half moves are pathetic, and you're likely rendering yourself MUCH less effective...or possibly vulnerable, if you're a ranged attacker.

 

I'd tell the person to buy less SPD.  

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I don't understand what you mean.  If RunningGuy (SPD 6)  buys +12m of Running then it costs 12 points and he moves 144m per turn. His nemesis TheJogger (SPD 5) spends the same 12 points on Running but only gets to move 120m per turn.

 

RG spent an extra 10 points on SPD.

 

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

If we move to turn based purchase of Running, then we would need to decide what the base giveaway was.  I suggest everyone gets 24m/turn, like a base normal.

 

If we want to keep the scale similar to now, then RunningGuy gets 120m/turn for 12 points.  The high difference is that TheJogger also gets 120m/turn for that 12 points. The pricing is 10m/turn for 1 point.

 

That's fine but you can't think in meters/turn. Movement is purchased in meters/segment.

 

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

RunningGuy, pro-rated moves at 24m/phase, the Jogger moves at 29m/phase.

 

My problem with that is, the way HERO movement works, you get odd leaps in distance and, if you are picky about the detail, then nit all phases would have the same movement in meters.

 

So having a lower SPD gives you an extra DC to your attack and a higher half-move?

 

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

After segment 12, RG has moved 24m, TJ has moved 29m

After segment 2, RG has moved 48m, TJ has moved 29m

After segment 3, RG has moved 48m, TJ has moved 58m

After segment 4, RG has moved 72m, TJ has moved 58m

After segment 5, RG has moved 72m, TJ has moved 87m

After segment 6, RG has moved 96m, TJ has moved 87m

After segment 8, RG has moved 120m, TJ has moved 116m

After segment 10, RG has moved 144m, TJ has moved 144m

 

I guess, attacks relying on velocity become a bit weaker (for high SPD cgaracters) as you remove the free velocity per phase they get from the everyman running.

There is no need for creating fast characters to be more expensive, that comes down to setting the pricing.

If movement cost is not affected then ranged attacks gain nothing in cost benefit.

 

Doc

 

Rounding works against you here. After segment 10, RG has moved 144m, but TJ should have moved 145m. 

[Steve]

If we shift to meters per segment instead of meters per phase, doesn’t that require a look at repricing movement?

 

How would this affect Teleport?

[unclevlad]

52 minutes ago, Steve said:

If we shift to meters per segment instead of meters per phase, doesn’t that require a look at repricing movement?

 

How would this affect Teleport?

 

Yes, it totally requires repricing.

And GREAT point.  Teleport and combat leap are normally complete within the segment they're used;  non-combat leap is short-duration.  I should've caught that myself.  There is NO notion of "move per turn" with either...which I kinda half-baked around, with the leap.

[Doc Democracy]

5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Teleport and combat leap are normally complete within the segment they're used;

RAW, running and flight are also both complete within the segment they are used.

 

5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Yes, it totally requires repricing.

 

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

That's fine but you can't think in meters/turn. Movement is purchased in meters/segment.

I think I noticed that. 😁 I agree.  I used a set price for immediate comparison.  There would be things to think about as far as price went. Absolutely.

 

6 hours ago, Steve said:

If we shift to meters per segment instead of meters per phase, doesn’t that require a look at repricing movement?

 

I was not talking about moving to metres per segment, it only presented that way due to the way SPD 5 and 6 interacted.

 

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

RG spent an extra 10 points on SPD.

 

And for that he gets an extra action action every turn, seems a decent return, no reason he should also get faster movement for free.

 

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Rounding works against you here. After segment 10, RG has moved 144m, but TJ should have moved 145m. 

 

I did note (or definitely meant to) that the last phase in a turn might be different due to rounding.  Some GMs will handwave it, others will want to account for every metre. Or there might be a more elegant pricing model.

 

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

So having a lower SPD gives you an extra DC to your attack and a higher half-move?

 

Well spotted. I had not looked at that, velocity calculations would need to be based on the movement power rather than movement per phase.

 

Doc

[Gauntlet]

10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Assuming you don't buy Flight or Teleport, it's an incredibly stupid approach.  Swimming, not so much, I'll grant, as that won't come into play, but that's just scraping points to scrape points.  You can only get 2.  Same with the leap.  The running...gee, all of 6 points!  Wow!  Major savings!  And for it?  Barring alternate move, your full and half moves are pathetic, and you're likely rendering yourself MUCH less effective...or possibly vulnerable, if you're a ranged attacker.

 

I'd tell the person to buy less SPD.  

 

Problem is that the low SPD characters can have an overwhelming disadvantage against a high SPD character. That high SPD character gets to decide if they want to go completely defensive or completely offensive while the low SPD character is required to either split up his/her skill levels or not attack. Of course they could go completely offensive, but that will most likely mean that they will get hit hard. The higher SPD character gets phases where he/she can go balls to the walls without any repercussions, the lower SPD character doesn't have that option. So whether you decide to buy off some movement or not, with the higher SPD you are going to have some definitely advantages.  

 

Now do I lower the running for my Speedsters. No, as I do agree the point saving is not much at all. But I still state that even if the Speedster buys down his/her running, it really doesn't make him/her any weaker, except against another Speedster.

 

Now as for ways a GM can avoid SPD Rape, keep down the amount of SPD a character can have. I have even run Superheroic games were the max SPD was 6, setting it up like this:

 

2-3 Typical Brick

3-4 Typical Energy Blaster or Martial Artist

5-6 Typical Speedster

Edited August 17 by Gauntlet

[Hugh Neilson]

I seem to recall, at some time in the past, a rule that everyone dropped to 2 Speed outside of combat.  That removes the "higher speed moves faster" issue for long distance travel and solves a lot of long-term END issues as well.  In combat, short bursts of tactical movement, and high-speed characters react faster, getting more tactical "movement bursts". Out of combat, SPD does not improve velocity.

[LoneWolf]

Looking at the type of characters (not just PC’s) that would have a higher SPD I don’t see many of them that would not have a higher movement.  A character with either athletic or combat training is going to move faster than an out of shape desk bound bean counter.  

 

Looking at the real world who is likely to have a 4 SPD?  Probably the only people will be someone like a top tier athlete or someone from the equivalent to Special Forces.  In both cases they can move at a higher speed than normal.  Outside of a comic book I cannot think of anyone who would have a higher SPD and not be able to move considerably faster than normal.  Even in a comic book that is still unlikely to happen.     
 

[unclevlad]

On SPD...I think the problem is when there's a serious discrepancy between the campaign SPD, and an individual character.

 

How about setting a "characteristic max" for SPD.  Whatever you like...for most supers, 7 seems plausible.  For lower power, 6, per Gauntlet's notes, or even 5 if it's more street-oriented/skills heavy.  Then buying over the max costs double.  The cost would become exorbitent, I'd think, before the SPD became a big problem.  

[Steve]

I only normally see a problem in my campaigns if the range of SPD gets beyond two points. So, 3-5 works, 4-6 works and 5-7 works, but 3-7 doesn’t work.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 8/16/2024 at 12:00 PM, Steve said:

After some thought, changing movement to a Turn-based structure would need to involve repricing movement, which then invites more complications.

 

Reducing movement rates to offset extra SPD is the simplest solution to making a character that can have more actions but not be able to clear more distance per Turn.

Or did you mean Segmented Movement? I flirted with the idea of using Segmented movement so each phase the Speedster is moving a little bit on the board. I would think then that Velocity damage would be based on the total amount of Running of the Segments you used between when you start and when you hit not the little bit you moved on your phase. It might be a little bit more book keeping though.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 8/16/2024 at 9:30 PM, unclevlad said:

 

Projectors and blasters also use movement considerably...full and half moves.

Right and so do Martial Artists. But should Blaster need to always have a better than normal half move? Martial Artist typical have a better movement just so they can get into HtH Range. I feel that if everyone has a higher base move then the Speedster feels like it should even a higher base (Combat) movement. 

[LoneWolf]

An energy blaster usually only has to move to make sure they can get a shot.  If the energy blaster flies and is fighting something that does not they can simply stay put in the air and shoot.  This allows them to attack without worrying about being attacked.  Since they cannot be attacked they can brace with no real consequences.  If they do this and someone does attack them they pay for it, but when they can get away with it, it is very effective. Martial Artists and bricks are the ones who get screwed most in this.

 

Every Speedster I have seen has both increased SPD and increased movement.   Most of the time they have 25m or more in movement, and usually have an increased NC as well.