Equipment Placement on Vehicles

[Sketchpad]

Good Afternoon Herophiles!

I've been working on a few "Heroic" level campaigns as of late and was playing around with vehicles. Specifically cars in a post-apocalypse kind of setting, and starships in space operas. I've always been a big fan of modding stock vehicles for a character's needs (for example The Millennium Falcon), but also enjoyed the concept of "so much space" that's available to mod in.

Because of this, I've been working on a placement system. When selected, the base chassis of a vehicle has (BODYx5) slots available, with items taking (AP/10) slots. So if you have a vehicle with BODY 20, that would give you 100 slots to play with. Say you want a piece of equipment that costs 100 AP, it would take up 10 slots. 

 

Does this seem feasible to you? Would you do it another way? 

[Chris Goodwin]

What's the purpose of doing it this way?

 

Does doing it this way change any other mechanics, like can vehicles be overloaded, perhaps causing the overloaded equipment to be outside of armor?

 

Does this exist in addition to charging points for the equipment?

 

Generally it seems pretty feasible to me, but I'd probably try to come up with a way to use mass, STR, and encumbrance.  I've been trying to come with one for years in fact, but haven't ever been satisfied with the ones I've come up with. 

 

An additional question:  Have you playtested it?

 

And one more question: how many slots does a human take up?

Edited August 22 by Chris Goodwin
fixing typo

[Gauntlet]

I have been working on a Mech creation system that can limit the number of weapons a Mech might have based on their Size and STR. I just can't see a Mech that is only 10 feet tall having the same level and number of weapons as one that is 50 feet tall. Now if you just go on a point-based system, you can, but in many campaigns it just doesn't make sense.

[LoneWolf]

Why is it based on BODY?  .  BODY is a measure of the structural integrity of the vehicle.   

 

Vehicles have a Size stat, and it would make a lot more sense to base it on that instead of BODY.  They also have a STR stat which determines its carrying capacity.  

 

This is also ignoring the fact that not all equipment will have the same density.  Electronics are often less dense than mechanical devices.  
 

[Gauntlet]

Would it be too complicated to give each weapon type and other equipment types a size/weight?

[Duke Bushido]

If you are soliciting opinions-  and if not, read this post no further and skip ahead for the the next guy's thoughts.

 

The big problem I have always had with the official rules for vehicles is that what you have left after you construct your vehicle is insufficient to actually model that vehicle.  You know how many hexes it is, but that doesn't really dicatate its footprint, does it?

 

"Why sure!  I know it is 64 hexes.  Since it has to fit on a road,it is somewhere around 2.5 meters wide, so it is about 26 meters long!

 

Unh-hunh.  And if it is a double-decker bus?  Then it is only 13 meters long, right?

 

There isn't a lot of regulation,volume-wise or, shape-wise, on what the actual physical model of the vehicle looks like.

 

So-  and again, if you are opinion shopping-  if you want to assign "slots" to equipment and then determine what bits are how big, then I suggest that you _first_ and a way to specify the volume of the vehicle being built.

 

After that,determine what must be subtracted from that volume:  power plant?  Fuel?  An amount of volume for each human?  Cargo?  What about the superstructure of the vehicle itself?  What percentage of the vehicle is lost to forming the fragile and support of the vehicle and everythinf inside of it?

 

So radios take up volume determined by their AP?  Because id that is the case, they is a solid chance they could be half the size of the engine.

 

Then determine1 what happens if the vehicle runs out of volume, but still has plenty of encumbrance left?  What about things mounted to the outside of the vehicle?

 

What _is_ the outside?  Does that mean anything mounted outside the vehicle is unprotected by the vehicle's defenses?  If so, os it feaaible to simply declare a few adjacent hexes as external storage ala a flatbed on a cab/chassis combo?  Is there a cost modifier for unibodt construction as opposed to a separate solid frame?  If I can add gear to the outside of the vehicle, then do the hexes of the exterior count against the total hexes I bought in the first place?

 

 

Please, bear with me.  I could go on and on like this.  I don't do it to be a stick in the mud; I swear I don't.  Frankly, I _like_ what you are striving for: hearkening back to Car Wars or Robot Warriors where there where real limits preventing any one robot from having everything, etc.

 

With the HERO rules, the first thing you have to do is assume that all tech is roughly at the same level (and what happens size-wise if aomeone puts three levels of Shrinking onto a 40 AP gizmo or six levels of Growth onto a BODY:12 automobile.

 

What does happen?

 

At the end of the day, to really do what it seems you want to do, you are left to modify almost everything about the ediating system, or come up with your own floor-up homebrew system.

 

However, there is another way-an easier way.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire,_Fusion_%26_Steel&ved=2ahUKEwi5mv-g0omIAxWk4skDHarbEd4QFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1oZOqqf6LXqtq5QvkPEOL3

 

 

That should do it.  This is, even to this day, one of rhe finest ROG supplements ever written. Yes; it is in terms of another system, but what I am saying is build your vehicles with FFS, then swap them over by converting the end result: just write it up in Champions terms and rock on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dmjalund]

I can see that BODY can be a measure of 'hard points' on a vehicle, but i can also see that large weapons can take more than one hard point. and that vehicle size can also determine the size of the weapons on the hard points, so though I can see the idea of using BODY, I also see it as merely the start of the calculus (maybe a multiplier based on size)

- also , more weapons means you probably ned more than one gunner. this could either be personnel, or a dedicated AI.

[Gauntlet]

Duke Bushido 

Thanks, using another system for usable items is not a bad idea. Unfortunately I don't have access to Fire, Fusion, & Steel and have never used it. But it did give me the idea that perhaps using another mech based game, such as Battletech.

[Chris Goodwin]

My thought was to use PD/ED/BODY scores equal to Active Points/10.  (Breakable Focus suggests AP/5 for PD/ED and no BODY score.)  You can shift values around within reason, meaning the highest is not more than twice the lowest.  The Focus's mass derives from the Object BODY table under Breaking Things (6e2 p. 172) that shows BODY by mass values.  You can voluntarily reduce BODY score to reduce mass, at -1 BODY per half mass; this has no point value. 

 

If you want more defenses or BODY, you can buy them at 3 points per 2 PD or ED or 1 of each, and 1 BODY at 1 point per, each with a -2 Limited Coverage Limitation.  I'm thinking this doesn't affect mass unless you take an additional Limitation, but I haven't tested any of this. Also it interacts with the reduced BODY/mass bit above.

 

And then it's all just encumbrance.  A vehicle has carrying capacity above its base mass equal to what it can carry with its STR, but encumbrance affects the vehicle the same way it does a character. 

 

For armor mass, use the mass values listed for personal armor mass in the equipment section: 5 kg for 2 DEF or 7 kg for 3 DEF, 2x mass per +2 DEF.  This scales up by SIZ; Vehicles with a SIZ Characteristic value from 0-2 use listed mass, then double the armor's mass for every +3 SIZ.  This also applies as encumbrance.

 

Components with a BODY score stop working but are reparable at 0 BODY, and are destroyed completely at -1x BODY.  Damaged components follow the Device Malfunction Table on 6e2 p. 172.

 

Like I said I've never tested it, so I don't know what might happen.  It will be consistent if nothing else.

[Sketchpad]

7 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

What's the purpose of doing it this way?

 

Does doing it this way change any other mechanics, like can vehicles be overloaded, perhaps causing the overloaded equipment to be outside of armor?

 

Does this exist in addition to charging points for the equipment?

 

Generally it seems pretty feasible to me, but I'd probably try to come up with a way to use mass, STR, and encumbrance.  I've been trying to come with one for years in fact, but haven't ever been satisfied with the ones I've come up with. 

 

An additional question:  Have you playtested it?

 

And one more question: how many slots does a human take up?

 

1. I think it makes more sense that vehicles can only carry so much stuff. If you have a motorcycle, for example, it's unlikely you're going to place a turbo laser on it. In the current system, someone can build anything. I'm looking to ground the concepts a bit more. 

 

2. I don't think so. In fact, it might make it easier to handle encumbrance. 

 

3. Mass would make sense, and that's what I'm abstractly attempting with vehicular gear having slot costs. In the above example, a turbolaser may exceed the points of a motorcycle, which could also mean it's too heavy and unbalancing. 

 

4. Not yet. I'm still looking at this as a thought exercise, but one that I may be using VERY soon. 

 

5. That's a good question. I hadn't put that to thought, but should. Anyone have a suggestion? 

 

5 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I have been working on a Mech creation system that can limit the number of weapons a Mech might have based on their Size and STR. I just can't see a Mech that is only 10 feet tall having the same level and number of weapons as one that is 50 feet tall. Now if you just go on a point-based system, you can, but in many campaigns it just doesn't make sense.

 

Agreed. This is why I wanted to bring this to the board. I'm not against using a different stat, but I would prefer to keep it a single one with maybe a multiple of some kind. This keeps it abit simpler, as the system could get fiddly.  

 

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Why is it based on BODY?  .  BODY is a measure of the structural integrity of the vehicle.   

 

Vehicles have a Size stat, and it would make a lot more sense to base it on that instead of BODY.  They also have a STR stat which determines its carrying capacity.  

 

This is also ignoring the fact that not all equipment will have the same density.  Electronics are often less dense than mechanical devices.  
 

 

That's actually why I based it on BODY over STR or SIZ. The points would be how the structure handles additional items being added to it. That said, though, I'm not married to using BODY. Would it be better to use (STRx5)? On the electronics front, yes and no. They can be less dense, but may also require complex systems to be added. I think there's a trade-off there.

 

4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Would it be too complicated to give each weapon type and other equipment types a size/weight?

 

I'm not against that either. But how do we determine Size and Weight of gear? My hope was to keep it a bit simple and not overly complex. 

 

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

However, there is another way-an easier way.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire,_Fusion_%26_Steel&ved=2ahUKEwi5mv-g0omIAxWk4skDHarbEd4QFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1oZOqqf6LXqtq5QvkPEOL3

 

 

That should do it.  This is, even to this day, one of rhe finest ROG supplements ever written. Yes; it is in terms of another system, but what I am saying is build your vehicles with FFS, then swap them over by converting the end result: just write it up in Champions terms and rock on.

 

While I've never used the book (haven't played a lot of Traveller), I'm intrigued by the concepts. The ideas I'm looking at here are based on a mishmash of other games, such as d6 Star Wars. Many of my past players liked modding their ships, and often shifted things around or gave up other systems to have an item they wanted. Just seemed like Hero should be able to do that too...

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

. Just seemed like Hero should be able to do that too...

 

 

It can do that.  Problematically, it's current vehicle rules are too abstract to do it in any meaningful way.  I don't lnow if you have noticed it, but I have commented before that when the vehicle rules first came out in in Champs II, we already had house rules in place, and after reviewing the official rules, we never adopted them.  The reason then was that they were too abstract to bother with.  They have been through every edition but the current one, and that singular problem has never changed.

 

Under the current rules, my vehicle does not need to have wheels, tracks, or even legs: it just needs Running (/Ground Movement): 60".  It doesn't even need an engine to do that.  If I buy it at Reduced END: 0 END, it doesn't even need fuel.

 

This is all well and good for the astounding and fanciful tech of superheroes, where one group is flying around in the goofiest 4-seater flying car ever designed of if a group of ten is standing on a giant, featureless golden disk.  If you need a rules system whereby you can build an Apollo rocket that sends four men into orbit with considerable effort _and_ a surfboard that can have you on the other side of the Andromeda galaxy by mid-afternoon, then the HERO System is _ideal_, and it is ideal specifically because SFX are irrelevant.  It does not matter if your movement comes from massive chemical-filled cylinders reacting violently with compressed gasses or if it comes from a magic crystal worn around the neck or a prayer to the correct celestial being or, in the case presented in a youtube video I watched a few weeks ago, channeling the rage of the Hulk and (somehow) converting that to momentum and using mental illusions to alter his rage levels until you achieved the FTL speed you desired (don't tell me comics are as good as they always were.  Yeesh...), and it doesn't matter because the engine and its size or fuel consumption ("I only get 7.6 light years to the tantrum, Dr. Banner.  What's the secret to _your_ incredible mileage?!) because all of that is SFX, and the game mechanics do not care what those SFX are: they are what you say they are.

 

If you want to produce a vehicle that must have specific and consistent mass and volume-related interactions- not just "we say so" limitations, but legitimate "you cannot get the 130" plasma screen through the door of your Chevy Sonic; I don't care how light it is," well, you _kind of_ can by taking the limitation "Limited Access," but even then, you can still define the opening as being any size up to the total size of the car, or even bigger, because the system,as is does not care about volume or structure or the relationship between the two.

 

Honestly, you can build a more consisiten vehicle by cracking open the  old plastic pocket boxes of Car Wars and Truck Stop, building the vehicles, then eunning them through Autoduel Champions (there's a product I have had zero reason to discuss in thirty years or so) to get the HERO Equivalents, convert you movement from 2-meter hexes to 1-meter hexes, and call it done.  Or FFS (my personal favorite for this type of thing), or Battletech, or Robot Warriors (which, as much as I love that one, was still too vague to make me super-happy).

 

And if you decide to roll your own, well, as I said, you have to decide how volume and weight are determined both of the vehicle and it's contents, what does and does not  need to be calculated as counting against those limits (let's say you want to add two levels of Density Increase.  It ups the weight; does it affect the volume?  Does it maybe reduce volume by 2 percent because of the additional reinforcing and bracing required, or maybe because with  fewer hollow channels, cabling and conduits are moved into more accessible locations?  Or not.  Maybe it reduces volume by six percent, or maybe not at all, but you have to decide, and you have to be consistent.  That is where to current rules fail you, because they have zero concern for the actual SFX of what you have built.

[Gauntlet]

Of course the way to go could be utilizing Robot Warriors rather than the standard Vehicle rules. It gives equipment based in the size of the vehicle, not based on points. And they even have an update for it for 6th Edition. The only problem I find with it is it's point system does not work will with standard hero, but for its own campaign it would work great.

[Sketchpad]

9 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Honestly, you can build a more consisiten vehicle by cracking open the  old plastic pocket boxes of Car Wars and Truck Stop, building the vehicles, then eunning them through Autoduel Champions (there's a product I have had zero reason to discuss in thirty years or so) to get the HERO Equivalents, convert you movement from 2-meter hexes to 1-meter hexes, and call it done.  Or FFS (my personal favorite for this type of thing), or Battletech, or Robot Warriors (which, as much as I love that one, was still too vague to make me super-happy).

6 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Of course the way to go could be utilizing Robot Warriors rather than the standard Vehicle rules. It gives equipment based in the size of the vehicle, not based on points. And they even have an update for it for 6th Edition. The only problem I find with it is it's point system does not work will with standard hero, but for its own campaign it would work great.

 

Both of these kind of serve as an inspiration for the system I'm looking at as well. I'm a big fan of Car Wars and love the modularity of the vehicles there. That said, while I'm looking to capture some of that, I also don't want this to turn into "GURPS Hero" (as much as I like both systems). While I've used the vehicle rules in the past, I think moving a bit away from the abstractness of it may help a bit. 

[Duke Bushido]

I won't bore you with our homebrew.  Suffice it to say that determine volume first, and base floor space from that.

 

By default, all "vehicles" and their installed systems are defaulted at "man-sized" (motorcycles, bicycles, shopping carts, go karts, etc) and "grown" or "shrunk" from there.

 

Mass can be altered with DI or Shrinking: only to reduce Mass (-1/2).

 

Kind of helps work out hit locations as well as what has to be destroyed to get to the next thing (have to wreck the engine to get to the fuel reservoir, etc).

 

A bit more work than the existing system (at least for non-supers, where size (volume)  actually matters, but not much.

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

16 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Of course the way to go could be utilizing Robot Warriors rather than the standard Vehicle rules. It gives equipment based in the size of the vehicle, not based on points. And they even have an update for it for 6th Edition. The only problem I find with it is it's point system does not work will with standard hero, but for its own campaign it would work great.

 

It's me.  I'm the "they".  😅

 

(It's here and it's pay what you want.)

[Gauntlet]

4 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

It's me.  I'm the "they".  😅

 

(It's here and it's pay what you want.)

 

Extreme Coolio! I love the concepts, rules, and books and definitely have purchased them. The only thing I think could be added is hit locations. Perhaps, Head (or cockpit), Body, Arms, and Legs; that way called shots can be made.

[greysword]

Since I receive The They's posts, I got to read this one in a timely manner, and I have a suggestion.

 

If you need to put a size limit on a power, you can use an active point limit to reduce the size of the power based on the size of the vehicle.  Then, it's up to the player to simply convince the GM at vehicle creation that the powers used make sense for the type of vehicle.

 

In other words, if someone has a motorcycle and wants to buy a multipower with a Ranged Killing Attack and Blast mounted laser, this is ok, since it can be explained as shunting more power to the weapon for the desired effect.  If they also want to add a 12 round missile launcher, a chaff launcher, a tractor beam, and a sidecar, then the GM will need to have the player explain how all of this can realistically be on a motorcycle at once.

 

Not sure of a slot limit (like in Star Wars Saga Edition) needs to be implemented.

 

Also of note, in a Heroic campaign, character points are tight.  The They implemented a larger divisor for vehicles, bases, and specialized weapons.  He made it 1 CP = 25 vehicle points (in Hero designer, just change the cost multiplier to 0.20).  This made it affordable, but still expensive, to purchase items with points instead of with money.  Plays out well.

 

Here are a few of my HDC files for reference.

YT1300 (factory).hdc BTL-A4 Y-wing Starfighter.hdc T-65b X-wing Starfighter.hdc TIE(ln) Starfighter.hdc TIE(in) Starfighter.hdc YT2000 (Start).hdc

[Chris Goodwin]

2 hours ago, greysword said:

Also of note, in a Heroic campaign, character points are tight.  The They

😅

 

2 hours ago, greysword said:

implemented a larger divisor for vehicles, bases, and specialized weapons.  He made it 1 CP = 25 vehicle points (in Hero designer, just change the cost multiplier to 0.20).  This made it affordable, but still expensive, to purchase items with points instead of with money.  Plays out well.

Foci too.  Anything that would be more than an ordinary weapon (equivalents to ordinary melee weapons or modern firearms) or armor (I think I said up to stormtrooper armor, which I think is up to 6rPD/6rED?) would be free, but something like a Mandalorian's equipment; beskar armor, or other metallic armor, jet packs, would all be charged at the 1/5 normal cost rate, as would droids and, as mentioned, vehicles.  I think I put lightsabers in the free side, but our Jedi paid the points for his anyway.

 

I need to reread my notes!

[greysword]

In case it is useful to the OP,

 

This was my assessment based on the Stormtrooper armor values Chris posted.  It is scaled from personal weapons up to Starship scale weapons, so if a Star Destroyer orbital bombards the spot where characters are located, the damage can be calculated to them and the buildings/vehicles around them.

 

Laser Weapons
RKA Damage	Weapon Type	Avg Dice	Average Body Damage
1d6	Holdout Blaster Pistol	1.0	4
1½d6 – 2d6-1	Light Blaster Pistol	1.5	5
2d6–2½d6	Blaster Pistol	2.0	7
3d6	Heavy Blaster Pistol	2.5	9
3d6-4d6	Blaster Rifle	3.5	12
5d6-7d6	Crew Served/Vehicle Weapon/Light Starship	6.0	21
8d6-10d6	Heavy Vehicle/Starship Weapon	9.0	32
11d6-15d6	Turbolasers	13.0	46
15d6-20d6	Heavy Turbolasers	18.0	63
Ion Weapons
Drain (SPD)	Weapon Type	Avg Dice	Avg SPD Reduction
1d6-2d6	Ion Pistol	1.5	0.5
3d6	Ion Rifle	3.0	1.1
5d6-7d6	Crew Served/Vehicle Weapon/Light Starship	6.0	2.1
8d6-10d6	Heavy Vehicle/Starship Weapon	9.0	3.2
11d6-15d6	Starship Heavy Ion Cannon	13.0	4.6
15d6-20d6	Surface Based/Dreadnaught Ion Cannon	18.0	6.3
Notes:
1) Ion weapons are for use on machinery (vehicles, droids, etc), and have no effect on organic lifeforms.
2) The best Power to match the movie effect of Ion weapons appears to be Drain characteristic: Speed (SPD).

 

 

 

 

 

Star Wars Weapon Power.xlsx

[Sketchpad]

That's cool and all Greysword, but I'm looking at ways that a vehicle could have a limited amount of gear applied to it, particularly in Heroic-level campaigns. I'm not so much worried about the point costs as I am the "monetary" cost being too inflated. I like the idea of having to replace a hyperdrive completely, for example, if you want a faster one rather than just investing extra points in it. Plus, where does it stop? Why bother upgrading to a new vehicle if there's no limit on what a hero can put in their old ship. The idea of a fighter-style craft being maxed out with super-large weapons and extra crew slots just cracks me up.  

[Chris Goodwin]

I'd say that the easiest way first and foremost is to keep reality or verisimilitude front and center.  Perhaps a Physical Complication: Real Vehicle, to go along with the Real Weapon and Real Armor Limitations? 

 

That aside, abstracted slots probably works as well or better than coming up with mass values that could differ by campaign and tech level. 

 

25 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

Why bother upgrading to a new vehicle if there's no limit on what a hero can put in their old ship. The idea of a fighter-style craft being maxed out with super-large weapons and extra crew slots just cracks me up.  

 

This can be handled partly through Real (Weapon, Armor, Vehicle, Equipment, etc.) and partly through limiting point budgets.  In a game where vehicles and vehicle weapons fall into the category of things you don't charge points for, you'll want some other balancing factor.  Car Wars, and Autoduel Champions following, used weight and space -- and I'll note that while weight is a concrete measure, spaces are abstract.  So there's precedent for the idea, even in Hero.