Multiple Martial Arts

[Mr. R]

Goren has a character with the following maneuvers

 

5    Darting Thrust ½ +1 +3 Strike 

4 Nimble Lunge  ½ +0 +2 Strike +2d6 

3 Moving Thrust  ½ -2 +2 Strike, Full Move 

5 Retreating Parry  ½ +1 +3 Block, Abort 

4 Light Disarm  ½ -1 +2 Disarm, +5 STR 

4 Evade  ½ +0 +5 Abort 

 

 

This style is designed to be used with a one handed weapon.

 

Later he decides to to study the following 

 

4 Martial Strike +0 +2 Str + 2d6 Shining Fist

5 Defensive Strike +1 +3 Str Three Fold Strike

4 Nerve Strike -1 +1 2d6 NND Pacifying Touch

5 Defensive Block +1 +3 Abort The Soft Wall

4 Martial Disarm -1 +1 +10 Str DA Sublime Removal

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 Str+v/5 Falls Prelude to Sleep

4 Martial Dodge +0 +5 Abort Splendid Protection

 

Now you will note some duplication

Shining Fist and Nimble Thrust

The Soft Wall and Retreating Parry

Evade and Splendid Protection

 

So would you make the character pay twice for the same maneuver?

Or would you say they already have some knowledge and let them have if for free?

 

I am leaning to the second path, but what do you think?

[LoneWolf]

The rules state you do not have to pay for duplicate maneuvers.   

[Mr. R]

12 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

The rules state you do not have to pay for duplicate maneuvers.   

Good to know.  Thank you!

[tkdguy]

I just buy the maneuver and note the name which a style calls it. For example, a character knows Fencing and Karate. I may note this on my character sheet, along with the modifiers.

 

Offensive Strike (Fencing: Lunge; Karate: Spin Kick)

Martial Block (Fencing: Parry; Karate: Block)

[Mr. R]

46 minutes ago, tkdguy said:

I just buy the maneuver and note the name which a style calls it. For example, a character knows Fencing and Karate. I may note this on my character sheet, along with the modifiers.

 

Offensive Strike (Fencing: Lunge; Karate: Spin Kick)

Martial Block (Fencing: Parry; Karate: Block)

Nice!

[Ninja-Bear]

18 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The rules state you do not have to pay for duplicate maneuvers.   

I think you do need a KS 11- for the second maneuver for the duplicate maneuvers.

 

However if you want a single maneuver from another style, it’s fine to just buy it.

Edited September 27 by Ninja-Bear

[LoneWolf]

There is no requirement to purchase a KS of a martial art in order to buy maneuvers.  That is only to determine if you are a “Black Belt”.   Even that has no real game effects.  There are some rules for styles, but that is more about things like analyze style or being able to take the distinctive feature.  Most characters that are trained in a formal marital art will have the KS, but it is not a firm rule.  

[Gauntlet]

If you want to have a KS of Martial Art types, it might be a good idea to purchase skill levels with a limitation that you need to make a skill roll based on the Martial Art type.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

There is no requirement to purchase a KS of a martial art in order to buy maneuvers.  That is only to determine if you are a “Black Belt”.   Even that has no real game effects.  There are some rules for styles, but that is more about things like analyze style or being able to take the distinctive feature.  Most characters that are trained in a formal marital art will have the KS, but it is not a firm rule.  

I had to look it up and check out Knowledge and Multiple Styles pg. 10 HSMA. If you have a KS in one style (doesn’t say 11-) and you buy another KS if a different style, you can you any use any maneuver that over laps without rebuying them.

[LoneWolf]

If you read further that is talking about avoiding the effects of Analyze Style.  

 

A lot of the rules from HSMartialArts are for martial arts focused campaign and may not be appropriate to all campaigns.  Earlier in that section it says a character also has to buy the Style Distinctive feature.  Several Styles in the book state that you cannot take the Distinctive Style with them.  

 

If you look in 6E1 page 82 it says martial arts can include instinctive claw fighting or tigers and werewolves.  I doubt if an animal can take a KS of a marital art.  The only firm rule about purchasing marital arts is you have to take at least 10 points of maneuvers.  
 

Edited September 28 by LoneWolf

[Ninja-Bear]

13 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If you read further that is talking about avoiding the effects of Analyze Style.  

 

A lot of the rules from HSMartialArts are for martial arts focused campaign and may not be appropriate to all campaigns.  Earlier in that section it says a character also has to buy the Style Distinctive feature.  Several Styles in the book state that you cannot take the Distinctive Style with them.  

 

If you look in 6E1 page 82 it says martial arts can include instinctive claw fighting or tigers and werewolves.  I doubt if an animal can take a KS of a marital art.  The only firm rule about purchasing marital arts is you have to take at least 10 points of maneuvers.  
 

But considering what the OP asked, the rule quoted is appropriate.  He talked about two different styles and not having to buy duplicate maneuvers nor was he talking about animals too. 
 

Now if he or anyone else doesn’t want to use it that fine it’s their game and you can say the same thing about the minimum of 10 pts for a style. FWIW certain animals in the Bestiary 4th bought single martial maneuver which broke the rules . I’m not arguing against that either.

Edited September 28 by Ninja-Bear

[LoneWolf]

The way you phrased your original post made it seem that there was a hard and fast rule that you have the KS to purchase the maneuvers.  Depending on the character and the campaign that might be appropriate, but unless the GM says it is required, he is not required to.  If it fits the character great, if not that is fine to. 

[GDShore]

I had not thought that I would return to comment on these forums but in reading this thread it is apparent that few if any of you have trained in a martial art let alone two. I have trained in three disciplines to an expert level, and dabbled in a fourth. I began archery before I was 6, fencing upon the occasion of my 14th birthday, and wrestling (Greco-Roman) in high school. None of what I learned in any of those disciplines was transferable to any of the others, except for discipline, commitment and physical fitness. In my 20's I tried Tai-Chi, I had thought that my wrestling would help it, did, not. As a GM I would require that any one who wanted to be a multi-discipline martial artist must have a K.S. in each of their disciplines. I would grant that if there was a maneuver that was similar to near identical that the character could aquire it at 50% less cost. 

     I beleive that for each "martial art" you must aquire the knowledge skills for it. I would accept that for similar art forms that the time required to achieve competancy to expertise would be shorter. Also the more under your belt like languages the easier the next becomes. I have always tried to maintain consistency of the 'game reality' as possible so that if I ran campaign A then campaign B or K, M or Z you could be assured of being able to construct a character that would fit. 

[LoneWolf]

What is considered a martial art in the real world is not the same as what it is in the game.  The reason for not having to purchase redundant maneuvers is more about game balance than anything else.   Some things in the game that take years if not decades to achieve cost very little, but other things that can be learned much quicker cost more points.     

 

Being one of the world’s foremost authorities on nuclear physics can cost as little as 5 points.  That is the same cost as a marital dodge.  The nuclear physicist probably spent decades learning that much, but that is less than the minimum cost for martial arts.  

Using the real world to determine how you purchase something in the game is not a good idea.   
 

Edited September 30 by LoneWolf

[GDShore]

Maybe, in 40 years of gaming with Hero's system, the people I play with all have 1 or more martial arts under their belts, and they have never complained in fact it was one of them that suggested that a K.S, was needed for each martial art. Thus have I done for forty years and mayhaps 40 more. 

[LoneWolf]

Like I said for some characters and some campaigns it make sense, but that is not always the case.  If the martial art is something like karate,  judo, Kendo or other formal martial art it make sense.  If the martial art is representing the fact you were raised by animals and learned how to fight from them it may not.   Tarzan is just as much of a valid character concept as a Karate Kid.  

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, GDShore said:

I had not thought that I would return to comment on these forums but in reading this thread it is apparent that few if any of you have trained in a martial art let alone two. I have trained in three disciplines to an expert level, and dabbled in a fourth. I began archery before I was 6, fencing upon the occasion of my 14th birthday, and wrestling (Greco-Roman) in high school. None of what I learned in any of those disciplines was transferable to any of the others, except for discipline, commitment and physical fitness. In my 20's I tried Tai-Chi, I had thought that my wrestling would help it, did, not. As a GM I would require that any one who wanted to be a multi-discipline martial artist must have a K.S. in each of their disciplines. I would grant that if there was a maneuver that was similar to near identical that the character could aquire it at 50% less cost. 

 

I beleive that for each "martial art" you must aquire the knowledge skills for it. I would accept that for similar art forms that the time required to achieve competancy to expertise would be shorter. Also the more under your belt like languages the easier the next becomes. I have always tried to maintain consistency of the 'game reality' as possible so that if I ran campaign A then campaign B or K, M or Z you could be assured of being able to construct a character that would fit. 

 

I would say that archery clearly stands apart as it would be a Ranged Martial Art. At the same time, I would question whether you learned a "martial art" or a proficiency with the bow.  What unusual maneuvers can you perform with a bow? What would the knowledge skill entail beyond basic maintenance of the bow and arrows (proficiency would bring that, IMO)? Not constructing them, I assume - that would be a professional skill.

 

Fencing, again, is a weapon element Martial Art. Is there a Knowledge Skill?  Would it be impossible to learn to fence without learning about master fencers of the past, the manner in which fencing foils are crafted, etc.? I would also note that, for gaming purposes, "fencing" is not limited to a foil or a sabre. Here again, do we in the real world learn Maneuvers, or just Proficiency and perhaps skill levels?

Wrestling certainly has maneuvers. What would the knowledge skill entail? Clearly, one does not grapple, hold or pin with a sword or a bow or, to the extent that one does, it is done in a very different manner). Fencing is about staying away from one's opponent and archery is done at range. Wrestling seems incompatible with either.

 

I am less familiar with Tai-Chi, but unless you are dealing with grappling and holding maneuvers, I fail to see why there would be significant crossover with wrestling. To the extent grappling/holding/pinning is relevant, it seems like either there would be significant crossover, or there would be very different maneuvers (in Hero terms, different OCV/DCV/hold modifiers). Did you ever try wresting against a Tai Chi opponent or Tai Chi in a wrestling match to assess such differences? Clearly that would be illegal in sport competitions. The sports rules might justify a KS - you can't effectively compete if you use banned moves.

In game, points are about being able to do something more than a character who has not invested the points.  Asking a player to pay 4 points to be able to either use a specific combination of OCV, DCV and STR modifiers using either a wrestling maneuver or a tai-chi maneuver, or to pay either 6 or 8 to be able to use the exact same modifiers with either wrestling or tai chi moves (and one maneuver can be multiple moves - one can strike with a hand, elbow, knee, foot, headbutt etc. and numerous other variations can be envisioned) is asking them to pay points for no benefit.  Why should they?  Just use your Wrestling Martial Grab against a Tai Chi practitioner.

 

What advantage would a player receive for having paid extra points to use the exact same mechanical ability in two different martial arts styles?  If there is no advantage to practicing multiple martial arts, there should also be no additional point cost.

 

As I consider it, the extra point cost violates a core Hero concept - the divorcing of mechanics from special effects.

[LoneWolf]

Hugh brings up a good point.  What exactly is the KS of the martial art giving you?  Without defining that requiring a player to purchase it really does not mean much.  To me the KS of a formal martial art covers rules and etiquette for practitioners and the philosophy of the art.  It is more about being able to compete in contests of the martial art than in actual fighting.

 

A KS of boxing would allow your character to know that hitting below the belt or kicking will cause you to be disqualified in a fight.  It would also cover the scoring system that determines the winner if the fight does not end in a knockout.  

 

A character's martial art can also be one they created by studying multiple styles.  Bruce Lee’s Jeet Kune Do is a perfect example of this.   
 

[Gauntlet]

The Knowledge skill could also be used for knowing what options that martial art has to offer, but unless you are buying something else like extra damage or skill levels that require that roll when fighting that particular type of martial arts, I don't see what value it has.

[LoneWolf]

Like any other KS it is a background skill.  One use might be to figure out that the martial artist that killed someone uses a particular style.  The TV show Quincy had an episode where someone was killed by the Dim Mak maneuver.  Quincy’s assistant SAM was able to help solve the case because he was aware of it.  The movie Five Deadly Venoms they were able to determine that one of the killers used centipede style. 

 

It can also be used as complementary roll for analyze style.  The HS martial art books give a few other uses for it.  
 

[Gauntlet]

In a Heroic game, it has uses, but in a Superheroic game, usually not.

[GDShore]

Archery is a Martial Art, and does have distinct separate maneuvers. I will describe just a few, 'Tracking shot', Rapid shot, Parthian shot. 

Tracking shot -- the ability to track and hit a moving target. (useful for hunting birds)

Rapid shot -- the ability to repeatly shoot arrows at a target accuratly. (in my best years I could fire '8' arrows at 40 meters into a 60 cm diameter target and put 7 of those into a 12 cm. circle and the 8th just outside) [the best I have seen is 24 in the 30 seconds, 20 hit the target, 10 in the 12 cm. gold, 10 across the remainder of the target, and 4 the spirts only know]

Parthian shot -- the ability to fire an arrow over the rump of a horse while moving. (named for the 'Parthian's a horse people, to the north of the Persian empire eventually subsumed by the Persians, and also used by the 'Mongol's, although they called it something else which I have forgotton. This maneuver requires that the archer learn a separate skill,, 'Horseback riding and just learning to shoot from horse back is interseting)

 

Fencing is also a martial art, and has distinct separate maneuvers. Again, just a few, beat, parry, thrust, cut and brace.

Beat -- to strike an opponents blade with a sharp rapid blow in order to move it out of the way, purpose to set up a thrust or cut. Beats are done edge on to an opponents blade.

Parry -- similar to the beat the parry is used primarily to block or deflect an opponents attack and uses the flat of your blade to do so. 

Thrust -- delivers the point of your blade into the body of an opponent. 

Cut -- delivers the tip of edge of your blade to the body of an opponent, in order to cause exsanguination or disabilment. 

Brace -- the use of two weapons simultaneously, 2 swords, sword + main-gauche, sword and dagger ect.  

Fencing primarily refers to the the fighting form that rose during the rennaisance, (as firearms improvred in availibility and useability) fourade new sword 'types' appeared and came to dominate the streets of Europe. The English small sword (a thinner narrow blade than a bastard sword) the Rapier, the Epee and the Foil. Each of them different from the others and using different technique. Then additionally, there is the national issue to take into consideration, French form, German form, Spanish form, Italion form, Dutch form and the English bastardization. Each of these has specific forms and maneuvers that is based on the specific weapon type each adoppted, the Germans going so far as to develope a different weapon entirely the Schlager. (it was developed from the Rapier but is slightly shorter and heavier)

Tai-Chi is primarily defensive, with blocks, parries and some throws designed to allow the practioner to be able to escaped his/her attacker at the earliest opportunity.

[LoneWolf]

19 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

In a Heroic game, it has uses, but in a Superheroic game, usually not.

I think knowing what maneuvers are in a martial art can be useful in any campaign.  Knowing that a character can make a full move and attack with a bonus to OCV allows you to choose your own actions in a more efficient manner.       

 

Usually, you are only talking an 8 or less role that cost a single point.   That means it is not going to give you a major advantage but might give you a clue on something.  
 

[GDShore]

I do not agree Gauntlet, one of my campaigns had a player go into martial arts, (aka Batman or Green Hornet / Kato) she was very effective. (and this was before the Martial Arts book became available)

[LoneWolf]

Just now, GDShore said:

I do not agree Gauntlet, one of my campaigns had a player go into martial arts, (aka Batman or Green Hornet / Kato) she was very effective. (and this was before the Martial Arts book became available)

He is talking about the 8 or less KS of the marital art, not the maneuvers.