Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Lord Liaden]

For those of you who have picked up The Ultimate Vehicle (and if you haven't, what are you waiting for?!), have you ever tried running any of your "heavyweight" superheroes or villains against some of the military combat craft detailed therein? How do the likes of Grond, Firewing or Gravitar fare against tanks, or jet fighters? Can they really stand up to a squad of planes or armor, as some of the more powerful comic-book characters do?

[Metaphysician]

I don't have the book, so I tend to benchmark characters against the strat-nuke stats I remember from when I skimmed it ( 20d6 RKA ).

 

There are characters who are instantly killed by a ( average ) nuke, characters who can survive a nuke hit, characters who can keep fighting after a nuke hit, and characters who aren't even CON stunned by a nuke hit.

 

Of the ones you mentioned, only Grond survives the nuke hit. OTOH, Gravitar might be able to redirect it with her Missile Deflection ability ( can't remember how it effects area attacks, or what range it works with ).

 

The other benchmark I have is the tank gun mentioned in the BBB ( 8d6 RKA ). Gravitar doesn't have to worry about these much; they only do 16 Stun on average per hit, no Body. Thats minus force wall and missile deflection. Firewing takes 8 Body per hit, 30 stun or so. He can't get hit many times. Good thing he wouldn't. Grond can take 4 hits before running out of Stun, but no Body, no CON stun.

[Chuckg]

Missile Deflection does two things vs. Area Effect attacks -- zip and zilch.

[Agent X]

I think the problem for the military is making perception rolls and dealing with the speed of the supers. Supers flying low into armor divisions are going to really disrupt things.

 

The problem supers are going to have with aircraft are the ranges aircraft should be able to be effective at.

[Metaphysician]

OTOH, supers tend to be smaller targets than military vehicles. I imagine a tank would have a tougher time hitting a super directly than another tank.

[Gary]

It depends on the super. The military should have relatively little trouble dealing with most hand to hand fighters (invisible or desolidified ones may prove a problem however). Gotta love area effect artillery shells or bombs. Most Energy Projectors shouldn't be too hard either. Mentallists, mages, and shrinkers are going to be a big problem. There is no easy way for the military to protect themselves from them.

[Rune]

In the comics, it seems that the supervillains at the top of the heap have extra defenses usable against conventional weaponry, and that their attacks are extra effective against conventional systems. When the Abomination (or the Hulk) goes on a rampage, does any one think that conventional military might is going to stop him?

[megaplayboy]

If you have a 50 STR, you can push and flip a tank over.

 

A well-balanced superteam, especially if you are talking about world class Avengers/JLA types, will walk over a tank platoon in less than a turn. Considering that's about 12 seconds, they could take out a division in about an hour.

 

Invisible characters could wreak havoc on command and control. Ditto for mentalists. Flying bricks would take a while to show up on radar, and the big problem for the military is that most of them would probably survive an AAM hit.

Even a lot of martial artist types tend to have some rDEF, so infantry are basically screwed.

 

The one useful thing about the Hulk movie is that it puts the whole "superbeing vs. military" thing into a proper perspective, IMHO;)

[Chuckg]

> If you have a 50 STR, you can push and flip a tank over.

 

An Abrans can do 60 mph on flat ground. Most bricks can't.. the Hulk is an exceptionally unusual case.

 

So as your brick advances towards the tank, ready to push and flip, the tank merely backs up faster than he can advance and shoots him.

 

Remember also that hitting targets a mile away is considered routine for tankers, although vs. man-sized targets they'd probably want half or a quarter of a mile. And the main gun has enough levels vs. Range Mod to allow reliable hits at that range... and if it doesn't then Ultimate Vehicles got the build wrong, because that's it's common IRL performance. How many of your team bought No Range Penalty? At 350 points?

 

Sure, if your superteam is within melee range of the tanks, they're dead. But hell, tanks die if caught within melee range of infantrymen... grenades in the vents, grenades in the tracks, RPGs up the turbine exhaust, etc. Tankers do not close to within knife-fighting distance of the enemy without an infantry screen, nor do they like to drive into built-up urban areas.

 

[snip]

> Invisible characters could wreak havoc on command and

> control.

 

That Apache up there just switched to ground-tracking radar and thermo. Did you remember to buy your Invisibility vs. those two sense groups as well? No? Suck a Hellfire.

 

> Ditto for mentalists. Flying bricks would take a while to

> show up on radar,

 

When I was in the Navy, one of the popular sports for the Aegis radar operators was using the directional radar to microwave sea gulls. (Yes, they *DO* need to get out more. Admitted.)

 

For the high-powered air search radars, we need discrimination circuitry on the sets just to keep from getting returns off of birds inside of 5 miles.

 

> and the big problem for the military is that most of them

> would probably survive an AAM hit.

 

Survive, yes. Avoid being CON Stunned, probably not.

 

> Even a lot of martial artist types tend to have some rDEF, so

> infantry are basically screwed.

 

Coordinated Attacks will allow /somebody/ to hit, and grenadiers will do their bit.

 

Not to mention that Combat Luck probably doesn't apply vs. snipers.

 

Supers can rip apart military forces -- if they have a surprise advantage, or if they're able to close in to within pistol range without being detected. But vs. a prepared, highly-trained force on open ground, victory's going to the guys with the big metal.

 

[snip]

> The one useful thing about the Hulk movie is that it puts

> the whole "superbeing vs. military" thing into a proper

> perspective, IMHO

 

The Hulk was an almost unique case -- fast enough that artillery couldn't keep up with him, agile enough to catch anti-tank missiles out of the air and throw them back, invulnerable enough to withstand cannon fire, and strong enough to rend anything he could touch -- all at the same time, in the same person.

 

Few superbeings are that powerful.

 

Now granted, there's some superbeings who can just walk through armies. Gravitar, Takofanes, Doctor Destroyer, etc, etc. But they're 1000-2000 point monstrosities.

 

 

A well-balanced 350-point superteam could easily munch a squad, probably take an infantry platoon, starts sweating it hard vs. a well-trained rifle company with support weapons and artillery or air support on call, and would need a miracle to survive, oh, a Marine Expeditionary Unit backed up by divisional support.

[Gary]

Any supers who can't hide themselves or go desolid will find lots of High Explosive shells and bombs raining down on them. Modern Tanks are immune to HE, but most supers are a lot more fragile. In Champions terms, at least a few of those 120 mm high explosive shells will roll a 5 or 6 on their stun multiples, and then the supers are dog meat.

[astralfrontier]

Will supers stomp on the military?

 

IMO it depends mostly on the team in question. My game's team is uber-optimized for stealthy, low-level martial arts, and we almost without exception have GREAT mobility. DarkGlow and Thomas Temple together could probably take on a tank squad, with associated infantry, if we were crafty. We're no good against jets but just fine against helicopters. Teams like the JLA could make almost any military unit kiss sand in a matter of seconds or minutes. Teams like the X-Men would probably have more difficulty, since they're built on a more "man-to-man" scale of combat.

 

As mentioned, the principal problems seem to be RANGE and AREA EFFECT. The weaknesses of your typical military unit are COORDINATION and MOBILITY. Radar is not terrifically hard to jam; any team that can field a power-suiter can field an area jammer along with him. It's not too far from this to jamming radio. Beyond that, yes, a tank can probably back up at higher speeds than a brick can run. Tank treads aren't all that tough to throw out, so if you have a speedster along you are probably in good shape. Helicopters may have good airspeed, right until their tail-rotor is taken out. Jets can fly fast, but most supers can hover. And so forth.

[Chuckg]

> As mentioned, the principal problems seem to be RANGE

> and AREA EFFECT. The weaknesses of your typical military

> unit are COORDINATION and MOBILITY.

 

Actually, the average squad of soldiers -- at least, if we're talking about major First World military forces -- will have better coordination than the average superteam, unless you're talking teams like the Avengers or the X-Men, who have logged so many man-hours intensively training that they might as well /be/ Special Forces units.

 

> Radar is not terrifically hard to jam; any team that can field

> a power-suiter can field an area jammer along with him.

 

In the game, no -- a simple Darkness vs. Radio Sense Group is enough to jam.

 

IRL, on the other hand, it ain't always that easy...

 

> It's not too far from this to jamming radio.

 

Actually, many modern military headsets today use variable-frequency scramble coding on at least 256 bits... in order to jam it, you'd need sophisticated broadband jamming capacity. A simple frequency jammer won't do it, 'cause you'll only get a fraction of the signal.

 

(Game equivalent -- the +1/4 Invisible To Tracing advantage).

 

> Beyond that, yes, a tank can probably back up at higher

> speeds than a brick can run. Tank treads aren't all that

> tough to throw out,

 

I have been told that the old chestnut of jamming them with a crowbar will now only get you a bent crowbar -- tanks today have significantly more robust treads and more horsepower than they used to.

 

(Seeing as how today's MBT is a 70-80 ton monster, whereas old tanks were 30-40 tons, this isn't hard to figure out... they *HAVE* to be more durable now.)

 

> so if you have a speedster along you are probably in good

> shape.

 

True, if that speedster has snagged himself some HE grenades and knows where to put them... quick, gimme your PS: Soldier or KS: Tanks roll. Don't have it?

 

> Helicopters may have good airspeed, right until their tail-

> rotor is taken out.

 

Problem is, that helicopter doesn't have to get within a mile of you in order to kill you. And they /train/ to fly nap-of-the-earth, pop up, take the shot, and then pop back down into cover... it's how they avoid getting killed by the air defense artillerywhen they're out tank-hunting.

 

> Jets can fly fast, but most supers can hover.

 

So he does a gun pass on you, turns around, and comes back -- if you're still alive.

 

Many jets /are/ more than capable of attacking stationary targets, remember -- they do it every time they strafe.

[Chuckg]

BTW, so far, all of my comments have been based on our real-world military, whose only knowledge of superbeings would be from comic-books.

 

Military forces from the Champions Universe would have access to the full body of doctrine written up by PRIMUS and/or UNTIL for meta-combat... and their special operations units, at minimum, would assiduously practice that doctrine. /And/ procure some of the proper gear.

 

As anybody who has either the VIPER or the UNTIL sourcebook knows, you need to be verrrrrrrrry high-points before you can completely stop worrying about agents. If there's enough of them. If they have sufficient training and motivation. And if they have the right tools.

[Lupus]

If we're talking 'heavyweight' heroes or villains, we ain't talking 350 point PCs. We understand, Chuck, that the military isn't a pushover. And I understand frustration at seeing militaries constantly under-represented. I hate it when people don't properly represent power levels or whatever, for dramatic (or, more likely, lazy) reasons.

 

But chill! No-one's saying the military sucks. Just that a good team of supers can overwhelm them either by power, or by exploiting weaknesses (the latter, yes, does involve some knowledge of the military and their machines). Especially as most militaries train to fight other militaries, not superheroes. Yep, in a supers setting, you'll get military units that are trained that way. But you'll also get supers trained to fight the military.

[Metaphysician]

Depends on the team, IMHO. The Champions would have a tough time taking out one tank, unless Defender's EMP blast works on it. My current superteam, the ( 750+ point ) Sentinels, would probably eat most military units alive. Of course, thats because we have:

 

-A flying brick with the speed to catch up with anything on the battlefield, the strength to tear it apart, and the durability to take tank shots for only a couple stun.

 

-An equally fast cosmic power wielder/energy blaster with LoS range and the ability to take anything short of a tank round without being CON stunned.

 

-A teleporter capable of going wherever, whenever on the battlefield ( like inside tanks )

 

-A disgustingly powerful mentalist with ultratough powered armor ( equal to the cosmic, IIRC )

 

-A shrinker capable of evading almost all detection and wreaking havok inside vehicles

 

-Grand Admiral Thrawn + Fremen with telepathy, who's sneaking into the headquarters for some knifework while maintaining telepathic link and tactical aid to everyone else.

[TheEmerged]

Actually, to me one of the most important factors is not the raw power and equipment -- it's the mentality. Most novas (super-powered people) are going to be civilians with a civilian mindsight and methods. Most military personel are going to have a major advantage here, especially if push comes to shove (insert crack about the one thing the Iron Age had right was the proper view of Code vs Killing).

 

Take X-Men 2 for example -- clearly written by a civilian. I don't know any military force in the world that would be idiotic enough to cram a dozen troops into a small hallway with no cover like that where even one grenade (let alone all the grenades they were carrying) could disable all of them.

[Lord Liaden]

Interesting observations, but let me clarify the issue I was looking for input on:

 

Let's take the example of Firewing, supposedly "one of the most personally powerful supervillains in the Champions Universe." 20D6 EB as his top attack, 40/40 Defenses, 30" Flight, DEX 30, SPD 7. He normally operates alone, and seeks out opportunities for challenging combat. There's an illustration in Champions Universe of him ripping through a squad of jet fighters.

 

Does he have the wherewithal to take out a military unit alone? Has anyone used him or a similar "world-class threat" against conventional military hardware? Preferably the examples in TUV, since they represent "canon" samples of what armed forces would have to throw at him.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

BTW, so far, all of my comments have been based on our real-world military, whose only knowledge of superbeings would be from comic-books.

 

Military forces from the Champions Universe would have access to the full body of doctrine written up by PRIMUS and/or UNTIL for meta-combat... and their special operations units, at minimum, would assiduously practice that doctrine. /And/ procure some of the proper gear.

 

As anybody who has either the VIPER or the UNTIL sourcebook knows, you need to be verrrrrrrrry high-points before you can completely stop worrying about agents. If there's enough of them. If they have sufficient training and motivation. And if they have the right tools.

I don't use Viper or Until because the philosophy seems flawed to me. When high end agents are built on the same amount of points or more points than low-powered supers there is a problem. When there are teams of 300 pt. agents walking around, there is a problem.

 

It's all in the builds. It wouldn't be difficult at all to build a general purpose superteam on 350 points that could also deal quite effectively with large modern military units. Are those teams that common? Probably not.

 

But some checks on military power - Low Speeds and missiles bought as vehicles for the military should help the heroes out.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Interesting observations, but let me clarify the issue I was looking for input on:

 

Let's take the example of Firewing, supposedly "one of the most personally powerful supervillains in the Champions Universe." 20D6 EB as his top attack, 40/40 Defenses, 30" Flight, DEX 30, SPD 7. He normally operates alone, and seeks out opportunities for challenging combat. There's an illustration in Champions Universe of him ripping through a squad of jet fighters.

 

Does he have the wherewithal to take out a military unit alone? Has anyone used him or a similar "world-class threat" against conventional military hardware? Preferably the examples in TUV, since they represent "canon" samples of what armed forces would have to throw at him.

Not yet.

 

We gotta remember that heroes can dive for cover and the like though. I think Firewing might do pretty well.

[Chuckg]

Well, given that Firewing can withstand both the listed air-to-air missile and the listed F-18 cannon fire for long periods of time, he could probably /get away/ from them, simply by dropping to the ground in an urban area and turning the fire off.

 

Of course, the problem with that illo is that the fighters actually closed to within kissing distance. It's Firewing, for God's sake -- he's flaring as hot as a jet exhaust! Your heat seekers can lock onto his Damage Shield from 10 to 20 miles away! Why the hell are you ever getting within range of his EB? Sure, you'd need to fire multiple rocket ripples until you finally got a high enough STUN multiplier to stagger him, but that's why God gave you multiple hardpoints and wingmen.

 

Like what TheEmerged said about X-2, only worse -- in X-2, at least, the soldiers had /some/ reason to presume that they wouldn't be facing grenades. Civilian school run by a known semi-pacifist, after all.

[astralfrontier]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Actually, the average squad of soldiers -- at least, if we're talking about major First World military forces -- will have better coordination than the average superteam, unless you're talking teams like the Avengers or the X-Men, who have logged so many man-hours intensively training that they might as well /be/ Special Forces units.

 

Which is why it depends on the team. A lot of classic comic teams do receive this sort of training, and can expect to be sent up against military/high-tech/government-funded opposition - in fact, this is the entire basis for the X-Men universe..

 

In the game, no -- a simple Darkness vs. Radio Sense Group is enough to jam.

 

IRL, on the other hand, it ain't always that easy...

 

Actually, many modern military headsets today use variable-frequency scramble coding on at least 256 bits... in order to jam it, you'd need sophisticated broadband jamming capacity. A simple frequency jammer won't do it, 'cause you'll only get a fraction of the signal.

 

I would be hard-pressed to believe that any team that can field a density-changing android, a guy wearing self-powered flying armor, a VTOL stealth jet, etc. cannot handle jamming modern military radios and radars, regardless of frequency agility and so forth. In the Champions universe, any guy who can carry around revolutionary battle-armor in his BRIEFCASE should be similarly capable.

 

I have been told that the old chestnut of jamming them with a crowbar will now only get you a bent crowbar -- tanks today have significantly more robust treads and more horsepower than they used to.

 

True, if that speedster has snagged himself some HE grenades and knows where to put them... quick, gimme your PS: Soldier or KS: Tanks roll. Don't have it?

 

He does after a few training sessions, depending on the team. If he's starting from scratch, it will not be terrifically tough for the team to get their hands on some tank, somewhere, and practice for awhile.

 

Again, this all boils down to what sort of team you throw in. I would argue that a teleporter and gadgeteer are essential to any well-rounded "military-busting" team, but that's just my opinion.

 

As for "IRL it's not so easy", well, IRL it's not so easy to build powered armor, fly, or bend steel beams with your bare hands. But we're positing people who can do all these things and more. I for one won't say it's a pushover - many, many supers and super-teams will get crushed like a bug. But I'm not going to discount their abilities any more than I am forgetting the power that a well-trained and well-equipped soldier has.

[Guest Champsguy]

Oh please. It's not even close. Supers take this one easily.

 

First, let's get one thing straight: Steve Long screwed up when it came to writing up military equipment. The stats he lists are far too high. Simply put, he doesn't know what an 8D6 RKA Explosion will do (I know it was changed in The Ultimate Vehicle, but he didn't make it right there, either). The M1-A1 listed in the book will survive being dropped from orbit, no ifs, ands, or buts. It won't even be scratched if it lands on its nose.

 

Hey, I'm a military-tech buff. I sometimes enjoy nothing more than sitting around and looking at stats for the new hardware that's coming out. I'm very familiar with their capabilities. I'm also very aware of their limitations.

 

You think it's soooo easy to find supers? How easy was it for us to find Bin Laden? Oh wait, we haven't yet?

 

Those heat-seekers you shoot at Firewing won't work when he's within a city. He's gonna have cover on all sides from the buildings he's surrounded by.

 

Artillery? Hah! You think we can aim that stuff at a fast-moving super?

 

Half (or more) of the members of a superhuman team will be able to fly. That removes tanks from the equation.

 

Supers roll, no problem.

[Supreme Serpent]

As for the original question: no, most Champions supers, even the heavy hitters, wouldn't have a chance really against modern military hardware. A couple of good tank blasts with good stun mods and it's all over.

 

 

As for the hijacked part of the thread, I think it partly depends on the environment. Open terrain, military has the edge in most cases. In a city...heaven help the army. One guy alone like Batman or Spider-man could tie them in knots.

[Chuckg]

> First, let's get one thing straight: Steve Long screwed up

> when it came to writing up military equipment. The stats he

> lists are far too high. Simply put, he doesn't know what an

> 8D6 RKA Explosion will do (I know it was changed in The

> Ultimate Vehicle, but he didn't make it right there, either).

 

If a 2d6 RKA is an M-16 -- and it is -- then you're going to have severe trouble convincing anyone that a 120mm DU hypervelocity round should only be 4-6d6, even /with/a logarithmic damage scale.

 

> The M1-A1 listed in the book will survive being dropped

> from orbit, no ifs, ands, or buts. It won't even be scratched

> if it lands on its nose.

 

The M1A1 Abrams can withstand a direct hit from its own main gun on its nose, at close range. The armor /has/ to be comparable with the damage rating for the tube.

 

As for "falls from orbit"... no, you're forgetting that the atmospheric friction damage is taken /every Phase/. Even at only 1 BODY or so per Phase, the thing will be half-molten slag by the time it hits.

 

[snip]

> You think it's soooo easy to find supers?

 

In an open-field battle, yes. Nobody yet has addressed the problem of how to find supers in a city, except me... and that was for me to admit that it would be very, very hard.

 

Edit -- and Supreme Serpent's post, to admit that it would be nigh-impossible.

 

> How easy was it for us to find Bin Laden?

 

About as easy as the superheroes have (not) found Doctor Destroyer -- and for many of the same reasons.

 

[snip]

> Those heat-seekers you shoot at Firewing won't work when

> he's within a city.

 

Yes, thank you, didn't I just already say this? Sheesh. If you're going to argue with someone, read him first.

 

[snip]

> Half (or more) of the members of a superhuman team will be

> able to fly. That removes tanks from the equation.

 

... and enters in the Air Defense Artillery boys.

 

There are /some/ high-powered supers who can laugh at even large, organized military forces -- we already conceded this. There are some other stealth masters who would be nigh-impossible to find in built-up terrain -- we already conceded that, as well. How did you manage to so thoroughly avoid reading any of this?

 

OTOH, there are many supers who are dead meat if the military goes after them with sufficient force, and that's what we were talking about as well.

 

 

 

PS -- as to how artilery hits fast-moving targets... same way you call in artillery strikes on truck convoys and advancing enemy formations. Unless the target in question is moving faster than 60 mph, it's no big diff. Unless the guy's in a city or something.

[misterdeath]

Depends on the Age, actually.

 

If you're running a Golden or Silver age campaign, sure.

 

if you're running an Iron age campaign, probably not.

 

If you're running a Bronze age campaign, then maybe, depending on how the GM emphasises the power of the normals.

 

Since Champions Universe seems to default to a Silver Age shading to the Bronze Age, IMO, yes the world beaters should be able to thrash the military.

 

But, the rules don't necessarily support that, since Hero System is ageless and generic.

 

Hence, various people's "normal things take extra damage from supers" that have been thrown around.

 

x2 Vulnerability or Automatic Maximum Damage are two choices I like. For a Silver Age game.

 

D