Max Callahan Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 I'll note that Firewing opened a Gateway to get to Earth from Malva. So, if his FTL is a hyperspace gateway power that would allow him to be FTL in space while not necessarily being fast when just flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Max Callahan The 30mm on the Apache helicopter in TUV is 4 1/2d6 AP +1 stun mult. But it fires 30mm x 117 rounds and they are straight cartridges. The gun on the A-10 fires 30 x 173 mm rounds with necked cartridges, so they have about twice the charge of the rounds the Apache fires, which I read as +1 DC. For my own write up I've been calling it 5d6 -1 AP If there is anything Firewing really has to watch out for it's the Hellfire missiles on the Apache, they are 4d6 2xAP explosion. Being explosion they will probably hit, and being 2xAP they will do 4 body on the average hit. Not if they hit via the Explosions. Remember, Explosion reduces the damage depending on inches of distance. Then again, the Hellfire probably *shouldn't* be Explosive, seeing as its an antitank weapon. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 > Then again, the Hellfire probably *shouldn't* be Explosive, > seeing as its an antitank weapon... There's a thermobaric (fuel-air explosive) variant of the Hellfire used as a building-wrecker, but yes, the standard Hellfire is a big-ass shaped charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher Drag. That's not consistent with comics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Shaped charges are one of the weak points in Heros system writeups imo. There should be explosion, NON AP on at least part of the attack. partial advantages are a pain, though. Originally posted by Chuckg > Then again, the Hellfire probably *shouldn't* be Explosive, > seeing as its an antitank weapon... There's a thermobaric (fuel-air explosive) variant of the Hellfire used as a building-wrecker, but yes, the standard Hellfire is a big-ass shaped charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Personally, I'm inclined to just treat shaped charges as a straight RKA ( no AP, unless you think DU sabot is APx2 ). The "armor piercing" nature of the weapon is covered by its straight size, and any explosive side effects are left to DM adjudication unless the weapon is explicitly designed to generate shrapnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 The problem is that Shaped charges are also used in US service as the only HE round of the tanks, because their Blast effect is pretty good. Not as good as a HESH round, or a Russian HE-Frag round, but they are still an anti-armor round, with the HE effect as a side benefit. Personally I think we should use a Dual purpose with a fragmentation sleeve or a straight HE/HE-Frag also. Particularly as there are relatively FEW tanks for the military to target now. The US tank ammo loadout was predicated on a war against the Warsaw Pact, where their tanks would outnumber ours by a very large number. Tanks were to kill tanks, everything else was secondary. Now we will most likely mostly be shooting at bunkers, buildings, trucks, groups of infantry... I keep wondering if a 75-90 millimeter gun with an autoloader and a LOT more than 40 rounds would make more sense for near term. Problem is that those would not penetrate a modern tank frontally. Originally posted by Metaphysician Personally, I'm inclined to just treat shaped charges as a straight RKA ( no AP, unless you think DU sabot is APx2 ). The "armor piercing" nature of the weapon is covered by its straight size, and any explosive side effects are left to DM adjudication unless the weapon is explicitly designed to generate shrapnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 re: the existence of atmospheric drag: Originally posted by Agent X That's not consistent with comics. So. Effing. What? Anyway, nothing can be consistent with comics, they're not even consistent with themselves. Not even the same writer on the same run of the same comic dealing with the same characters, quite often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher re: the existence of atmospheric drag: So. Effing. What? Anyway, nothing can be consistent with comics, they're not even consistent with themselves. Not even the same writer on the same run of the same comic dealing with the same characters, quite often. You need to read more and you need to pay attention to the commonalities that mark consistencies in character concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Sorry to do this, but this is one of those threads I missed while too busy working. But it's one of those big ones so...if someone wouldn't mind...what was so interesting about this, before I start wading through >400 posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Champsguy Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by zornwil Sorry to do this, but this is one of those threads I missed while too busy working. But it's one of those big ones so...if someone wouldn't mind...what was so interesting about this, before I start wading through >400 posts? Flame war. Multiple people argued over whether superhumans should win against the military. There are lots of arguments about how/where/why supers would fight the army. There are lots of arguments about how tough vehicles should be. There are lots of arguments over what tactics supers could/would employ, as well as which tactics the military could/would employ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by Champsguy Flame war. Multiple people argued over whether superhumans should win against the military. There are lots of arguments about how/where/why supers would fight the army. There are lots of arguments about how tough vehicles should be. There are lots of arguments over what tactics supers could/would employ, as well as which tactics the military could/would employ. Thanks. From the length I figured there was some "debate". The synopsis doesn't sound thrilling (to me) as I don't get into that sort of scenario often enough. Good to know where to go if I run into it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by gewing The problem is that Shaped charges are also used in US service as the only HE round of the tanks, because their Blast effect is pretty good. Not as good as a HESH round, or a Russian HE-Frag round, but they are still an anti-armor round, with the HE effect as a side benefit. Personally I think we should use a Dual purpose with a fragmentation sleeve or a straight HE/HE-Frag also. Particularly as there are relatively FEW tanks for the military to target now. The US tank ammo loadout was predicated on a war against the Warsaw Pact, where their tanks would outnumber ours by a very large number. Tanks were to kill tanks, everything else was secondary. Now we will most likely mostly be shooting at bunkers, buildings, trucks, groups of infantry... I keep wondering if a 75-90 millimeter gun with an autoloader and a LOT more than 40 rounds would make more sense for near term. Problem is that those would not penetrate a modern tank frontally. The future(20 years from now) direction of tank armament is likely to be a railgun of between 30 and 80 mm caliber, firing a solid slug at about 3-5 times the velocity of current tank rounds. I assume there might be some kind of HE/anti-personnel secondary weapon. like a grenade launcher, mortar, or medium autocannon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? The problem is that Shaped charges are also used in US service as the only HE round of the tanks, because their Blast effect is pretty good. Not as good as a HESH round, or a Russian HE-Frag round, but they are still an anti-armor round, with the HE effect as a side benefit. Personally I think we should use a Dual purpose with a fragmentation sleeve or a straight HE/HE-Frag also. Particularly as there are relatively FEW tanks for the military to target now. The US tank ammo loadout was predicated on a war against the Warsaw Pact, where their tanks would outnumber ours by a very large number. Tanks were to kill tanks, everything else was secondary. Now we will most likely mostly be shooting at bunkers, buildings, trucks, groups of infantry... Well, if thats what you used them mostly for, I'd write them as a linked attack, with both the main 6d6 RKA, and a linked 4d6 RKA Explosion. Would make it pricier, but compared to the 8d6 AP RKA sabot round. . . I keep wondering if a 75-90 millimeter gun with an autoloader and a LOT more than 40 rounds would make more sense for near term. Problem is that those would not penetrate a modern tank frontally. How about a light tank designed to fight light armor, provide infantry support, and be airlifted easily, as a supplement to the Abrams?? Like the cancelled M8. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? About what I figure too. should be useful for anti-aircraft too. The future(20 years from now) direction of tank armament is likely to be a railgun of between 30 and 80 mm caliber' date=' firing a solid slug at about 3-5 times the velocity of current tank rounds. I assume there might be some kind of HE/anti-personnel secondary weapon. like a grenade launcher, mortar, or medium autocannon.[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? Actually, why not just make 4d6 Exp, with the AP not applying. Complex, but.. M-8 was good, but look up the old "RDF light tank" ideas. Well, if thats what you used them mostly for, I'd write them as a linked attack, with both the main 6d6 RKA, and a linked 4d6 RKA Explosion. Would make it pricier, but compared to the 8d6 AP RKA sabot round. . . How about a light tank designed to fight light armor, provide infantry support, and be airlifted easily, as a supplement to the Abrams?? Like the cancelled M8. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? Genre Superheroes versus Military: Most comic book writers, having little military experience, tend to write the military as if it were still the 1950's and the Cold War, at least in terms of equipment. Nor are they at all familiar with military methodology. Strictly speaking, our modern military isn't Silver Age genre military. So if you're going to toss genre into it, then most of this debate actually goes out the window as we're dealing with a simplified less well equipped and trained military than what exists in real life. That's perfectly fine, if you want to make a world that is in fact dependent on superheroes. Realistic Superhero versus Military: In this case, you have to deal with the fact that most superheroes are not terribly realistic, or they're not built realistically. The existance of essentially vigilante paranormals dealing with paranormal threats isn't realistic period. In the end, the law enforcement community would develop their own paranormal branch to deal with the issue of paranormal threats. We won't even get into the implications of supertech. At this point the whole debate is about genre superheroes versus realistic military, which in some ways ends up being an apples and oranges debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? What's with all the resurrected threads lately? Is the power of "this thread is like..." so powerful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? What's with all the resurrected threads lately? Is the power of "this thread is like..." so powerful? The Hero board is dabbling with Necromancy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? In any case, I thought over all the big M Master villains. Every one of them would be able to handle military forces. Gravitar can solo all but the largest conventional force with her powerset. Takofanes and Doctor Destroyer can do the same, plus having large armies of minions. Mechanon can take all but the largest conventional firepower, has a nasty trump card versus most modern weapons ( the cyberkinesis ), and has minion robots of his own. The Warlord has the troops and vehicles to engage smaller military units in conventional engagements. Istvatha V'Han and, to a *much* lesser extent, the Supreme Serpent, can sic high tech military forces of their own on any conventional army. Teleios can breed an entire army of his own, including bio-monstrousities. Seems like it fits well enough to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beauxdeigh Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? The Hero board is dabbling with Necromancy! And without so much as a "By the Dark Powers, I summon thee..." or "Arise from the nether pages, foul thread..." or even an "Ancient Spirits of Eeevil, Transform this decayed thread, to THREAD-RA, the Ever LIVING AHAHAHAHAHA!" Thread Necormancy has lost all of it's style, I tell you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? The future(20 years from now) direction of tank armament is likely to be a railgun of between 30 and 80 mm caliber' date=' firing a solid slug at about 3-5 times the velocity of current tank rounds.[/quote'] Heck, according to "Coils of the Serpent", VIPER has that already. As a tripod-mounted crew-served weapon. I thought it was a bit of a falling down on the job that VIPER could reliably put a 10d6 RKA worth of railgun into a reliable and semi-portable infantry support weapon, but the primary armament on their main battle tank uses a lot more space and weight to deliver a lot less damage. I mean, for an otherwise extremely well-written supplement, that was a mistake up there with Rifts Coalition War Campaign, which has N amount of damage for the "Boom Gun" (a 12-foot rail cannon carried by a very small mecha), and 1/4th N damage for the main gun on an MBT four times the mecha's size and ten times its mass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? Maybe the Boomslang is a relatively new development, and hasn't been incorporated into the main heavy tank production design yet?? ( except perhaps for single manually retrofitted units that your heroes might encounter. . . ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? Maybe, but honestly, it would only take a few months. Did the Boomslang come out last week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Re: Can Worldbeaters beat the military? IC, it would be a nasty surprise if it did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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