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Can Worldbeaters beat the military?


Lord Liaden

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The heavy bomb is listed in Fred as a 6d6 Killing Explosion with -1DC/3". That sounds about right for a HE shell from a 120 mm tube. Perhaps it might be dropped to 5d6 to prevent damage to the sides and rear of a M1-Abrams, but at least that should be in the right ballpark. And a bunch of these 5-6d6 RKA Explosions should paste most supergroups that are stupid enough to go toe to toe with a tank platoon.

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Originally posted by Chuckg

BTW, I might remind people that "350 point agents" exist becuase those agenst have to pay points for their equipment.

 

If they didn't have to, they'd be more like 150 to 200 point Heroic or Very Competent Normals.

 

Which /are/ the competence levels guys like Navy SEALs and Recon Marines should be at. You ever /met/ any of those guys for real? With rare exceptions, they are so frighteningly competent and well-rounded that they're enough to make you believe in metahumans.

My dad was recon, two tours, Vietnam.
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> I know about the real weapon limitation.

 

So why didn't you take it into account? If you have to strategically leave things out just to have an argument, then you don't have an argument.

 

> Steve Long introduced it in Dark Champions. So what?

 

Jesus, did Steve Long kill your dog or something?

 

Here's a clue -- there are not enough libraries in the world to contain sufficient books to hold all the words it would take to describe how little I am interested in hearing you go off about about Steve Long as an individual, got it? If you want to criticize rules, criticize the rules. But just repeating the guy's name every time you want to say "It sucks!" does absolutely nothing for me.

 

> If Steve Long said that a tank cannon was a 100D6 RKA,

> would that be okay?

 

And if Champsguy made a stupid straw-man overexaggeration to cover up the fact that he had no point, would that be unusual?

 

To answer your question literally -- which is more than it desrves -- no, it would not be OK. It would not be OK because such a damage figure would not even be vaguely consistent with the real-world performance of such shells, when we haul out the table that gives DEF figures for various thicknesses of real-world substances.

 

Of course, since he never actually did say it was a 100d6 RKA, you have no point.

 

> Using "real weapon" is a cop-out, because it totally divorces

> the weapon from any real-world effect.

 

Using an advantage specifically designed to allow for the effects of real-world weaopnry that the game system normally abstracts around is *divorcing* the weapon from a real-world effect?

 

This isn't just wrong, it's illogical on a literally breathtaking scale. It's of the same order of wrongness as saying that jumping into the Pacific Ocean is a good way to get dry.

 

> You should be able to read the stat sheet and determine

> with some degree of accuracy exactly what will happen if

> you shoot X target with it.

 

But the stat sheet /does/ give you /some/ degree of accuracy. What you appear to want is /perfect/ accuracy, and griping that a game abstraction does not give you perfect accuracy is like... sorry, analogy generator out of service, call back later.

 

> What will happen if you shoot a tank cannon at Hyperman's

> Fortress of Pimpitude? I should be able to tell by the stat

> sheet.

 

You /can/ tell by the stat sheet.

 

> There shouldn't be a limitation on the weapon that

> says "May not actually do this to any object".

 

That's not what 'Real Weapon' says, and you know it. Why are you wasting all of our time with this bullcrap?

 

If you shoot an 8d6 RKA, special effect defined as a DU slug, at the Fortress of Pimpitude... and you roll a BODY total higher than its DEF... then you make a hole in the wall the size of the DU sabot. Anybody with basic common sense can see that one, so what' stopping you? Besides this apparent hatred of anything Steve Long has touched, I mean?

 

> An 8D6 RKA is powerful. It levels buildings.

 

Or blows neat little holes in one side and out the other.

 

Good God, man, the Attack Powers section of the Big Black Book says the same thing under Special Effects. Not all RKAs must be created absolutely equal. Sheesh.

 

This is 5e, not 3e. Special affects adjudication with common sense is a skill every player and GM must have.

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Agent X -- and you're thinking that your father and nine other guys like him, with full gear and proper support, couldn't even beat up on Witchcraft and Nighthawk? Or take out Ironclad with a Humvee-mounted TOW?

 

Why not?

 

 

(Sapphire and Defender, as flying people with lots of resistant DEF, are a bit beyond the capabilities of even elite infantry, admitted. For them, you need light ADA.)

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Originally posted by Agent X

No. What GV was describing would pretty much make superheroes useless.

 

VG :)

 

Anyway I disagree here. Champsguy's point about mobility and bringing force to bear is an excellent point.

 

In addition to that Military forces generally don't have police powers in the US and in fact are prohibited from even aiding police / local law enforcement in most circumstances. That alone would prevent them from filling the role that heroes fill the majority of the time.

 

In my mind Super Team, PRIMUS, UNTIL, & the military each have their niches. Each one has a separate role that they concentrate on and different strengths & weaknesses. There are areas of overlap & thus potential conflict but overall their missions and purposes for being are very different.

 

Just because one group has the theoretical *capacity* to do something doesn’t mean that they really can, will, or should. So what if the military can take out supers or if supers can take out tanks? Doesn’t really matter from my perspective.

 

You can easily run a game where Super Heroes respond to the threats posed by Super Villains most of the time and threat posed by groups like Viper and Demon some of the time.

 

Until & Primus focus on the groups most of the time and Super Villains some of the time.

 

The Military can be the ‘big hammer.’ When all else fails they get the job and at this point they would be sending in the best that they could muster.

 

Really though what armies are designed for is not peacekeeping or law enforcement … but to fight wars. And in the CU it’s pretty inevitable that superbeings will be involved in a war at some point. The military would have to be prepared for that … and to me it looks like they are according to what is in the CU.

 

If Grond is in a war zone then they have to deal … and thus the question of whether the worldbeaters can hang with the military and vice versa is a reasonable one to ask … and doesn’t necessarily imply that the military will be taking over the ‘Super Team’ turf.

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Oh dear... I think I've done it again. :(

 

Really, I absolutely agree that many problems with super-villains are not the type that can be dealt with by the military. Military force does take a long time to be deployed compared to superheroes, so there will always be urgent situations where they are the best alternative.

 

It's just that I want my game universe to be able to handle the full spectrum of genre conventions. I want to stalk street-level psychos, foil super thieves, assault the hostage-holding super terrorists, sleuth out and foil the mastermind's subtle schemes. But sometimes I also want to be able to devastate the scenery, smash some of Uncle Sam's ordnance, and be the last line of defense against the unstoppable foe, because all of that is part of the comic book experience, too.

 

If Firewing has a Reputation as a "supervillain of world-threatening power" (which he does), I want him to have world-threatening power. To me that means he should wield sufficient force to take on an appreciable chunk of the force that the world could direct against him, and I think that should include military resources. If he can't deal with the forces likely to be arrayed against him as they've been statted out in the Hero books, then he should either be strengthened or those forces weakened. I was hoping for feedback as to how people felt characters like him stacked up, but opinions seem to vary widely. Again, a little practical experience with actually running someone like him in those situations would probably clarify things.

 

FWIW I've been feeling that Firewing could use a boost. His description in CKC says that "His power is enough to give anyone, even Dr. Destroyer, pause." Right now I don't think he could stand against Destroyer as written for even a Turn. I don't think he needs radical alteration, though; maybe increase his Force Field to 30/30 Hardened, and increase his Multipower to 125 Active Points so he can throw up to a 25D6 attack. Give him Flight with a high NCM so he actually can dogfight with fighter jets as he's depicted doing. Perhaps add a few Skill Levels of different types.

 

My feeling is that this would be enough to allow him to stand up to tanks, planes and the like in open battle, while leaving it possible for teams of experienced or versatile heroes to take him down. He does have several exploitable chinks in his Defenses, after all.

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Originally posted by Chuckg

Agent X -- and you're thinking that your father and nine other guys like him, with full gear and proper support, couldn't even beat up on Witchcraft and Nighthawk? Or take out Ironclad with a Humvee-mounted TOW?

 

Why not?

 

 

(Sapphire and Defender, as flying people with lots of resistant DEF, are a bit beyond the capabilities of even elite infantry, admitted. For them, you need light ADA.)

Maybe those lightweights.:D

 

Evil. Use my own distaste for the 5th Ed. Champions against me.:)

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Actually, Firewing needs only one changes to be able to dogfight with jets, a No Range Penalty EB slot. The days of jets closing to within only a hundred yards or so of the enemy are over, he needs at least a half-mile standoff shot.

 

The Force Wall/Damage Shield combo can take out most air-to-air missiles before they can reach him.. I just had that pointed out to me in chat. Correct my earlier posts, then.

 

 

However, I don't see Firewing as the villain who takes on the military at all. He's not here to conquer Earth for the glory of Malva, he's here to pick challenging fights with various metapowered individuals. Gravitar is the one who shows up and tries to throw a US Navy Destroyer into the middle of the Reflecting Pool to show the world how powerful she is, and so forth.

 

So Firewing not having the power to take out large military formations doesn't bug me much... that's not really his role, the more hyperbolic flavor text aside.

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Originally posted by Vanderbilt_Grad

VG :)

 

Anyway I disagree here. Champsguy's point about mobility and bringing force to bear is an excellent point.

 

In addition to that Military forces generally don't have police powers in the US and in fact are prohibited from even aiding police / local law enforcement in most circumstances. That alone would prevent them from filling the role that heroes fill the majority of the time.

 

In my mind Super Team, PRIMUS, UNTIL, & the military each have their niches. Each one has a separate role that they concentrate on and different strengths & weaknesses. There are areas of overlap & thus potential conflict but overall their missions and purposes for being are very different.

 

Just because one group has the theoretical *capacity* to do something doesn’t mean that they really can, will, or should. So what if the military can take out supers or if supers can take out tanks? Doesn’t really matter from my perspective.

 

You can easily run a game where Super Heroes respond to the threats posed by Super Villains most of the time and threat posed by groups like Viper and Demon some of the time.

 

Until & Primus focus on the groups most of the time and Super Villains some of the time.

 

The Military can be the ‘big hammer.’ When all else fails they get the job and at this point they would be sending in the best that they could muster.

 

Really though what armies are designed for is not peacekeeping or law enforcement … but to fight wars. And in the CU it’s pretty inevitable that superbeings will be involved in a war at some point. The military would have to be prepared for that … and to me it looks like they are according to what is in the CU.

 

If Grond is in a war zone then they have to deal … and thus the question of whether the worldbeaters can hang with the military and vice versa is a reasonable one to ask … and doesn’t necessarily imply that the military will be taking over the ‘Super Team’ turf.

In a Supers world, the military you are describing would be allowed quick response times to things like Takofanes slaughtering Talequah or Firewing nuking the Washington Monument.
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Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Oh dear... I think I've done it again. :(

 

Really, I absolutely agree that many problems with super-villains are not the type that can be dealt with by the military. Military force does take a long time to be deployed compared to superheroes, so there will always be urgent situations where they are the best alternative.

 

It's just that I want my game universe to be able to handle the full spectrum of genre conventions. I want to stalk street-level psychos, foil super thieves, assault the hostage-holding super terrorists, sleuth out and foil the mastermind's subtle schemes. But sometimes I also want to be able to devastate the scenery, smash some of Uncle Sam's ordnance, and be the last line of defense against the unstoppable foe, because all of that is part of the comic book experience, too.

 

If Firewing has a Reputation as a "supervillain of world-threatening power" (which he does), I want him to have world-threatening power. To me that means he should wield sufficient force to take on an appreciable chunk of the force that the world could direct against him, and I think that should include military resources. If he can't deal with the forces likely to be arrayed against him as they've been statted out in the Hero books, then he should either be strengthened or those forces weakened. I was hoping for feedback as to how people felt characters like him stacked up, but opinions seem to vary widely. Again, a little practical experience with actually running someone like him in those situations would probably clarify things.

 

FWIW I've been feeling that Firewing could use a boost. His description in CKC says that "His power is enough to give anyone, even Dr. Destroyer, pause." Right now I don't think he could stand against Destroyer as written for even a Turn. I don't think he needs radical alteration, though; maybe increase his Force Field to 30/30 Hardened, and increase his Multipower to 125 Active Points so he can throw up to a 25D6 attack. Give him Flight with a high NCM so he actually can dogfight with fighter jets as he's depicted doing. Perhaps add a few Skill Levels of different types.

 

My feeling is that this would be enough to allow him to stand up to tanks, planes and the like in open battle, while leaving it possible for teams of experienced or versatile heroes to take him down. He does have several exploitable chinks in his Defenses, after all.

I agree with much of this. Firewing needs beefing up and something needs to be done about the stats on militaria in game. I sometimes wonder how much Steve Long really understands about superheroes.
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Guest Champsguy

But you see, damage has been divorced from the real world. That's why you can drop a tank from 2 miles up, have it land on its nose, and be okay (30D6 is terminal velocity). The sci-fi tank has a 40 Defense!

 

The numbers that have been published in TUV are arbitrary. You have tanks that can fall for miles, land on their noses, and be okay. You have nuclear bombs that, as written, should blow the Earth in two. You've got weapons that are ridiculously overpowered, because the guy in charge likes to see lots of dice.

 

Now, you said: "To answer your question literally -- which is more than it desrves -- no, it would not be OK. It would not be OK because such a damage figure would not even be vaguely consistent with the real-world performance of such shells, when we haul out the table that gives DEF figures for various thicknesses of real-world substances.

 

Of course, since he never actually did say it was a 100d6 RKA, you have no point."

 

I agree with you on the first paragraph. It's not even vaguely consistent with the real-world performance of those shells. I also maintain that an 8D6 RKA isn't consistent either.

 

Why do I harp on this? Why is this such an issue for me? Is it a grudge against Steve Long? No. I've never met the man. I don't like the way he handles rules questions, I don't like the tone of his super-hero world (Menton the rapist--yech), I don't like his weapon writeups, and I don't like the way he stole character ideas, histories, and plotlines from the old boards (specifically from our game) to include in the Champions Universe. But I can let all that go. What bothers me is one simple post, years ago, on the old boards.

 

A GM was going to have his players fight near a helicopter. He wanted to know what damage he should set the spinning chopper blades at. His suggestion? 4D6 RKA x2 AP, Penetrating, Autofire x5. Ugh. That's what bothers me. Throwing extra dice on any old thing shows you have no sense of scale. It makes that 12D6 EB your character carries around even less useful. It means that Hyperman can punch you for 20D6 and daze you. Hyperman can then punch a bridge for 20D6 and destroy it. A tank can then shoot you and kill you outright, but then it can't destroy a bridge similar to the one Hyperman just nailed.

 

It gives us writeups of the sun that are 1,000,000 D6 killing. It gives us a game with a lot of holes.

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> But you see, damage has been divorced from the real

> world. That's why you can drop a tank from 2 miles up, have

> it land on its nose, and be okay (30D6 is terminal velocity). [snip]

 

/sigh/

 

Has it occurred to you yet that terminal velocity for a human-sized object and terminal velocity for a tank are not the same thing?

 

I don't see where Steve Long has to take any responsibility for over-literal interpretaions of everything with absolutely no attempt to allow either common sense or even a complete understanding of the rules into the equation.

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Originally posted by Champsguy

Why do I harp on this? Why is this such an issue for me? Is it a grudge against Steve Long? No. I've never met the man. I don't like the way he handles rules questions, I don't like the tone of his super-hero world (Menton the rapist--yech), I don't like his weapon writeups, and I don't like the way he stole character ideas, histories, and plotlines from the old boards (specifically from our game) to include in the Champions Universe. But I can let all that go. What bothers me is one simple post, years ago, on the old boards.

 

A GM was going to have his players fight near a helicopter. He wanted to know what damage he should set the spinning chopper blades at. His suggestion? 4D6 RKA x2 AP, Penetrating, Autofire x5. Ugh. That's what bothers me. Throwing extra dice on any old thing shows you have no sense of scale. It makes that 12D6 EB your character carries around even less useful. It means that Hyperman can punch you for 20D6 and daze you. Hyperman can then punch a bridge for 20D6 and destroy it. A tank can then shoot you and kill you outright, but then it can't destroy a bridge similar to the one Hyperman just nailed.

 

It gives us writeups of the sun that are 1,000,000 D6 killing. It gives us a game with a lot of holes.

Now, I'm gonna want details on what Steve Long lifted from the old boards come tomorrow.:eek:
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BTW, anybody of normal human durability pushed into rotating chopper blades *should* be puree faster than you can blink. Otherwise you get Nighthawk getting hit with a chopper blade and getting back up and dusting himself off, going "Ahhh, it's only 3 BODY. I'm fine."

 

And /you/ complained about lack of realism.

 

Quite frankly, if I had a player fall into some whirling chopper blades, I'd say "OK... is your skin as hard as steel?" *looks up the resistant DEF of steel* "No? You're dead. Hand me your character sheet."

 

Granted, if I had a player doing kung fu near some whirling chopper blades, I'd not have him fall into them in the first place unless he crit-failed an Acrobatics or Breakfall roll.(*) Now *THAT* is superhero genre.

 

Not the arbitrary downscaling of everything mundane so that it can't possibly hurt a super.

 

 

 

 

(*) Or unless the enemy successfully Grabbed him and threw him into them. This is why fights near whirling chopper blades are dramatic... the increased risk!

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Guest Champsguy
Originally posted by Chuckg

> But you see, damage has been divorced from the real

> world. That's why you can drop a tank from 2 miles up, have

> it land on its nose, and be okay (30D6 is terminal velocity). [snip]

 

/sigh/

 

Has it occurred to you yet that terminal velocity for a human-sized object and terminal velocity for a tank are not the same thing?

 

I don't see where Steve Long has to take any responsibility for over-literal interpretaions of everything with absolutely no attempt to allow either common sense or even a complete understanding of the rules into the equation.

 

No, it hadn't occurred to me. My knowledge of physics told me that terminal velocity is the same for all objects, as long as one discounts wind resistance. Fact: Heavier objects fall at the exact same speed as slower objects (again, discounting wind resistance [which is why a feather falls slowly]).

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> No, it hadn't occurred to me. My knowledge of physics

> told me that terminal velocity is the same for all objects, as

> long as one discounts wind resistance.

 

And my knowledge of physics told me that one never cannot entirely discount wind resistance unless one is operating on an airless planetoid. Which, in case you didn't notice, the Earth ain't.

 

Tanks have a significantly different aerodynamic drag than I do.

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Originally posted by Champsguy

No, it hadn't occurred to me. My knowledge of physics told me that terminal velocity is the same for all objects, as long as one discounts wind resistance. Fact: Heavier objects fall at the exact same speed as slower objects (again, discounting wind resistance [which is why a feather falls slowly]).

That's my understanding as well.
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Um, if this tank you have been referring to is 40 defense, than its not the M1 Abrams from the corebook, which only has 20 defense. If it *is* a sci-fi tank, why are you complaining about it surviving an "unrealistically" high fall??

 

As for nukes, only nuke writeup I recall from the book is the 20d6 RKA, Megascale. Mind telling me how that would blow up the Earth??

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Originally posted by Chuckg

> No, it hadn't occurred to me. My knowledge of physics

> told me that terminal velocity is the same for all objects, as

> long as one discounts wind resistance.

 

And my knowledge of physics told me that one never cannot entirely discount wind resistance unless one is operating on an airless planetoid. Which, in case you didn't notice, the Earth ain't.

 

Tanks have a significantly different aerodynamic drag than I do.

Huh?
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Originally posted by Metaphysician

Um, if this tank you have been referring to is 40 defense, than its not the M1 Abrams from the corebook, which only has 20 defense. If it *is* a sci-fi tank, why are you complaining about it surviving an "unrealistically" high fall??

 

As for nukes, only nuke writeup I recall from the book is the 20d6 RKA, Megascale. Mind telling me how that would blow up the Earth??

How much body does the tank have?
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Guest Champsguy
Originally posted by Chuckg

BTW, anybody of normal human durability pushed into rotating chopper blades *should* be puree faster than you can blink. Otherwise you get Nighthawk getting hit with a chopper blade and getting back up and dusting himself off, going "Ahhh, it's only 3 BODY. I'm fine."

 

And /you/ complained about lack of realism.

 

Quite frankly, if I had a player fall into some whirling chopper blades, I'd say "OK... is your skin as hard as steel?" *looks up the resistant DEF of steel* "No? You're dead. Hand me your character sheet."

 

Granted, if I had a player doing kung fu near some whirling chopper blades, I'd not have him fall into them in the first place unless he crit-failed an Acrobatics or Breakfall roll.(*) Now *THAT* is superhero genre.

 

Not the arbitrary downscaling of everything mundane so that it can't possibly hurt a super.

 

 

 

 

(*) Or unless the enemy successfully Grabbed him and threw him into them. This is why fights near whirling chopper blades are dramatic... the increased risk!

 

That's why I told that poster that chopper blades should probably be about 3D6 killing, with Reduced Penetration. Steel-hard skin = no more chopper blades.

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