Old School Dungeons and Dragons Question.

[KA.]

Hi there,

My wife is reading "Cruel Doubt" by Joel McGinniss.

For those of you who haven't heard of it, it is the story of a young man who is involved in the murder of his step-father.

He was also a Dungeons and Dragons player circa 1988.

Of course, the evil demonic influence of D&D is part of what caused him to kill.

 

Anyway, in one part of the book, a Police detective working on the case goes to a book store (this is in 1989) and buys some D & D material, to better "understand" what kind of influences may have been on one of the suspects.

 

According to the book, the detective had his wife read an "adventure" (probably a module, not something in a sourcebook) to him.

 

Here is what it said: (this is a small excerpt from Cruel Doubt by Joel McGinniss.)

 

The players were to enter a castle and kill the overlord in his sleep. The only weapons they were allowed were knives and clubs, which were to be carried in a knapsack. A princess named Aleena was sleeping in the castle near her father, the evil overlord. The players could not tell if she was friend or foe, so they allowed her to continue to sleep.

If they were successful in killing the overlord and escaping from the castle undetected, they would inherit all his wealth and develop new and greater powers, which could then be used in subsequent adventures. The more times they stabbed the overlord, the more experience points they would receive . . .

 

Now, since the murder case involved someone killing a man in his sleep with a baseball bat and a knife,

and his daughter was asleep right down the hall and not harmed at all,

and the step-son was due to inherit part of a large amount of money if the man died,

this seems damning indeed.

 

The only problem is, I have never heard of the scenario described. Again, this is not supposed to be a home-grown scenario, this is supposed to be from published material.

I didn't buy everything that came out, but this seems a little weird for even a D&D module.

 

And, obviously, while D&D may be a bit "hack and slash" I don't remember the rule that "the more times you stab something, the more experince points you get"

 

So, anyone care to shed any light on this?

 

KA.

[Southern Cross]

sounds like a typical lie spread about by anti-roleplayers.For a group of fanatics who profess to being truthful,they seem to be quite willing to say anything that would benefit the cause,whether it is the truth or not.

[lemming]

according to north texas Skeptics

 

The most famous case of "D&D Murder" aired in the made-for-TV movie Cruel Doubt. Two teens supposedly juiced-up on LSD allegedly killed their purportedly abusive parents for a $2-million inheritance. A nonexistent "game scenario" was blamed. Though this game scenario was never introduced in court, the jury didn't buy the "D&D defense" and no such game-scenario has ever been published anyway (according to TSR Hobbies, Inc. and scores of gaming enthusiasts on the internet). The "true-crime" novel concluded that this was a D&D-murder. This leap is almost as grand as Mr. Davidson's aforementioned Washington Post article, but at least the novelist can retreat behind the shield of entertainment.

[KA.]

Originally posted by Southern Cross

sounds like a typical lie spread about by anti-roleplayers.For a group of fanatics who profess to being truthful,they seem to be quite willing to say anything that would benefit the cause,whether it is the truth or not.

 

On the "more XP for stabbing" thing I agree, but the weird thing is, this book is supposed to be an "accurate" account of a murder investigation.

 

I mean, if the defense attorney came up with this sort of stuff as a reason why his client did something, I could buy that (not that it was true, but that they might try to claim it), but this is supposed to be what the detective investigating the murder found in a D&D book.

 

I don't see why they would just make something up, that they would be bound to be "called" on in court. So unless the Police were working with the Defense team, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

That is why I was wondering if anyone had heard of a module like this, or one that could have been twisted into this, by someone who didn't understand what they were reading.

 

I still remember when parents used to look at the Demons and Devils in the Monster Manual and think you were supposed to worship them or something.

 

KA.

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by KA.

On the "more XP for stabbing" thing I agree, but the weird thing is, this book is supposed to be an "accurate" account of a murder investigation.

 

I mean, if the defense attorney came up with this sort of stuff as a reason why his client did something, I could buy that (not that it was true, but that they might try to claim it), but this is supposed to be what the detective investigating the murder found in a D&D book.

 

I don't see why they would just make something up, that they would be bound to be "called" on in court. So unless the Police were working with the Defense team, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

That is why I was wondering if anyone had heard of a module like this, or one that could have been twisted into this, by someone who didn't understand what they were reading.

 

I still remember when parents used to look at the Demons and Devils in the Monster Manual and think you were supposed to worship them or something.

 

KA.

 

To my knowledge no such module existed. If it was published it certianly did not have an XP bonus linked to the number of stabbings.

 

Now if you wanna say DnD is evil... Hey I am right there with you. Everything after AD&D was down hill.

 

Fond memories aside, TSR and Wizards ruined a fun game

 

(was that off topic? )

[Fuzzy Gnome]

From the movie:

I find the defendants not competent to stand trial due to LSD&D. For their own protection and my entertainment, I order them to give up one experience level and change their alignments one step toward evil. If they murder their parents again, throw them to the elves.

[Blue]

Joel McGinnis became famous by writing the book "Fatal Vision", about an army green beret doctor that killed his wife on a military base and blamed it on manson-like hippies. (There's a great movie about this featuring Gary Cole as the murderer.)

 

For years the convicted Doctor has claimed he's innocent. If you read the book McGinnis puts no doubt in your mind that he's guilty.

 

...After hearing about this book and the "D&D" nonsense, I've actually got to wonder.

[Lamrok]

Maybe "Palace of the Silver Princess?" The description doesn't exactly match, but I think the princess is asleep, and there is an evil lord to be killed. The rest of the description doesn't match too well, but this was a fairly popular module back then. I was playing through a Neverwinter Nights conversion of this a few weeks ago. This was a very popular module back then - one of the "B" series.

[Uncle Shecky]

Re: Old School Dungeons and Dragons Question.

 

I don't think it could be "Palace of the Silver Princess." I don't think that module was still in stores in 1989. It's much older than that. Early '80s, I think.

 

Originally posted by KA.

... According to the book, the detective had his wife read an "adventure" (probably a module, not something in a sourcebook) to him.

 

Well, that sentence sums it up: Joel McGinniss is relaying this info 3rd or 4th hand. This detective told him that his wife read a book that said blah blah blah. We're playing "telephone" here. It might not have even been a D&D module. It could've been something in "Dragon" or "Dungeon." It could've been a D&D novel. It could've been a true crime book shelved in the wrong section of the bookstore. We're not even sure how literate this woman is...

 

However, if the woman got the princess's name right (Aleena), then some D&D fan out there will know what it's from, though I'd be surprised if the wife's description of the content was accurate.

 

There is an "Aleena Paladinstar" in the "Baldur's Gate" computer game. It's possible the character in that game was pulled out of some of the early Forgotten Realms stuff. I think the first Forgotten Realms books came out around 1987-89, so the wife could've found those in a bookstore. That might narrow it down. Maybe not.

 

And Blue's right about "Fatal Vision." For a Karl Malden TV movie, it was pretty cool. "Kill the Pigs. Acid is groovy."

[Solomon]

Re: Old School Dungeons and Dragons Question.

 

IIRC, the introductory adventure in the Basic D&D boxed set (the one with the red cover) featured a female cleric named Aleena. She was magically put asleep by Bargle, the evil overlord of the dungeon. Though, of couse, Bargle was not her father by any account.

 

Originally posted by KA.

If they were successful in killing the overlord and escaping from the castle undetected, they would inherit all his wealth and develop new and greater powers, which could then be used in subsequent adventures.

 

Kill the evil wizard, get his stuff, get XP and go up a level. This is almost accurate!

 

EDIT - Correction: Actually, Aleena is killed by Bargle.

[Law Dog]

The XP from individual stabbing sounds almost like something out of the Arduin Grimoire.

 

Heh heh, Love the % Liar on each of the monster descriptions.

[KA.]

Re: Re: Old School Dungeons and Dragons Question.

 

Originally posted by Solomon

IIRC, the introductory adventure in the Basic D&D boxed set (the one with the red cover) featured a female cleric named Aleena. She was magically put asleep by Bargle, the evil overlord of the dungeon. Though, of couse, Bargle was not her father by any account.

 

 

 

Kill the evil wizard, get his stuff, get XP and go up a level. This is almost accurate!

 

Nice one Solomon.

Anyone else remember seeing this?

I think this set fell between my two periods of D&D actvity.

I started with the Basic Set that came out just before AD&D, and then there was a lapse of many years. A few years ago I bought the basic set that was available just before 3.0 came out.

So, if KA. buys a basic set, a new edition is about to come out.

 

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the information.

I am used to things about RPG's being slanted, but I was a bit suprised to find something that appeared totally fabricated.

 

However, it sounds like there is a possibility that they read something somewhat close to what was quoted.

Can anyone verify the time frame for that set?

Does anyone have one laying around to compare the quote to?

 

KA.

[ThothAmon]

Roleplaying Is A Tool Of Santa

 

If you really want to see how AD&D and other roleplaying games are evil then check out this link:

 

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

[Rage]

Re: Roleplaying Is A Tool Of Santa

 

Originally posted by ThothAmon

If you really want to see how AD&D and other roleplaying games are evil then check out this link:

 

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

 

Man, I wish there was such an abundance of chicks in my childhood games. I mean check it out, 4 of them!

[Toadmaster]

Man what a rip off, I've been playing RPG's for over 20 years and I've spent tons of money on gaming stuff but I'm still just sitting here waiting for a Coven of hottie druid chicks to take me in to "show me the power". Its bad when you can't even trust satan worshiping game developers.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Re: Roleplaying Is A Tool Of Santa

 

Originally posted by Rage

Man, I wish there was such an abundance of chicks in my childhood games. I mean check it out, 4 of them!

Seriously. That's proof beyond question that Chick (or whoever wrote that rag) has never actually seen a D&D game.

[Solomon]

Re: Old School Dungeons and Dragons Question.

 

Originally posted by KA.

However, it sounds like there is a possibility that they read something somewhat close to what was quoted.

Can anyone verify the time frame for that set?

Does anyone have one laying around to compare the quote to?

 

KA.

 

I got my copy out and reread it. Let's check how my theory holds:

 

Timeframe: The revised boxed set was published in 1983, but I think it was still easily available by the late '80 as the game was still supported by TSR (Immortals was a 1986 production, reprinted in 1992 IIRC).

Also, the introductory adventure is in the first pages of the "Read This First!" Player's Book in that Basic D&D set. Easily the very first pages someone looking into D&D would be reading.

 

The name is the same, but Aleena is a Cleric, not a princess. She's also not related to Bargle (the evil wizard) at all. The PC does meet her in the room next to the one Bargle is in. She's not asleep, but she's in a meditative trance. The PC has a sword and a knife, Aleena has a mace. At first the PC is unsure if Aleena is friend or foe. Bargle kills Aleena before fleeing.

 

Despite many similarities, the book departs from the adventure in several points. But then, from what I read, every time the book departs from the adventure, it matches the real case, and every time it doesn't match the real case, it matches the adventure. So I think it might be possible the adventure was misread/misquoted, either intentionally or unintentionally.

 

The "multiple stabbing gets you XP" part is pure nonsense though. No D&D rulesset or scenario had that IIRC.

[KA.]

Re: Re: Old School Dungeons and Dragons Question.

 

Originally posted by Solomon

I got my copy out and reread it. Let's check how my theory holds:

 

Timeframe: The revised boxed set was published in 1983, but I think it was still easily available by the late '80 as the game was still supported by TSR (Immortals was a 1986 production, reprinted in 1992 IIRC).

Also, the introductory adventure is in the first pages of the "Read This First!" Player's Book in that Basic D&D set. Easily the very first pages someone looking into D&D would be reading.

 

The name is the same, but Aleena is a Cleric, not a princess. She's also not related to Bargle (the evil wizard) at all. The PC does meet her in the room next to the one Bargle is in. She's not asleep, but she's in a meditative trance. The PC has a sword and a knife, Aleena has a mace. At first the PC is unsure if Aleena is friend or foe. Bargle kills Aleena before fleeing.

 

Despite many similarities, the book departs from the adventure in several points. But then, from what I read, every time the book departs from the adventure, it matches the real case, and every time it doesn't match the real case, it matches the adventure. So I think it might be possible the adventure was misread/misquoted, either intentionally or unintentionally.

 

The "multiple stabbing gets you XP" part is pure nonsense though. No D&D rulesset or scenario had that IIRC.

 

Thank you Solomon,

This pretty much clears things up.

By the way, I don't want anyone to get the impression that my wife is an anti-RPG fanatic or anything. She has actually played a few times, and has no problem with my hobby.

 

But, we hold ourselves to a fairly high intellectual standard.

Even though the passage from the book sounded suspicious, and the part about the "XP for stabbing" was obviously incorrect, I would not just come out and say:

"Someone in this chain of people is not being accurate!"

without some kind of verification.

 

Either the writer misquoted the Detective, or the Detective was remembering the way the passage "should have been" instead of the way it was, or this was a story that "grew in the telling".

 

From the tone of the book, it is implied that the author spoke directly to the Detective, and it is clearly stated that the Detective later spent "days" studying the D&D material, after this "revelation".

 

So, it looks like someone is trimming the facts to suit the theory.

 

The sad part is the parents that will read this book, and forever ban RPG's from their home, based on a lie.

 

Thanks to everyone for their help, and especially Solomon for his steadfast assistance.

 

KA.

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by Toadmaster

Man what a rip off, I've been playing RPG's for over 20 years and I've spent tons of money on gaming stuff but I'm still just sitting here waiting for a Coven of hottie druid chicks to take me in to "show me the power". Its bad when you can't even trust satan worshiping game developers.

 

 

Now imagine the Chick tract with Champions substituted for D&D.

 

"Bob, you're now a 400 point hero. I think it's now time you learned to really fight crime."

 

"You mean I'm going to get a uniform and superpowers?"

 

"Yes, you have the personality for it".

 

Two hours later, Bob is wearing his underware over his sweat pants and trying to stop jaywalkers, all of whom are pummeling the cr@p out him. Then the police haul his idiot self in and he winds up being held 72 hours for psychological evaluation, just like any little fruit loop that tried to cast D&D spells in real life.

[badger3k]

MST3k does Jack Chick's "Dark Dungeons" - a fan page, which I honestly haven't read yet.

 

and this one is really good:

 

http://www.theescapist.com/random011102.htm

 

the pics are great.

[Armitage]

Originally posted by badger3k

MST3k does Jack Chick's "Dark Dungeons" - a fan page, which I honestly haven't read yet.

 

http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/

 

They even make the point about female Gamers.

 

Tom: Hey. This isn't a D&D game! Where's all the Mt. Dew?

Crow: And the Doritos?

Mike: Plus, the women outnumber the men!

[AnotherSkip]

ROTFLOL

[AnotherSkip]

After thinking it over for 24 hours there are a few points(after the laughter died down) I would like to make.

 

The biggie is that after taking extra time on my KS: RPG's skill I realised that there is _One_ system I can think of where you get more xp the more times you hit badguys. Rolemaster/MERP.

 

And there were modules that had stats for both games so it might have been a cross rendering of the two systems. But this is waaaaay out there.

 

Another point is that Yes, I have been in groups of AD&D wherein there were at least four hotties, and the women outnumbered the men.

(as of a matter of a fact, my ex wife was one of them)

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Old School Dungeons and Dragons Question.

 

here is another lovely series of posts about Jack Chick...

 

http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=222044#post222044

[lemming]

Re: Old School Dungeons and Dragons Question.

 

here is another lovely series of posts about Jack Chick...

Ack! I'm caught in a loop!