Creature Exchange

[Blackout]

Anyone interested in a "Monster Mart"? Which is to say, we all take turns posting fully stated Fantasy Hero-type critters...

[Seenar]

sounds like a good idea

i will check my files

[MisterVimes]

Re: Creature Exchange

 

Originally posted by Blackout

Anyone interested in a "Monster Mart"? Which is to say, we all take turns posting fully stated Fantasy Hero-type critters...

 

Absolutely!

[Hierax]

Umber Hulk, Ogre

 

Here's a few draft monsters that I'd like some feedback on so I can finish them off:

 

http://www.hierax.com/hero/fantasy/grey/monster/umber_hulk.pdf

 

http://www.hierax.com/hero/fantasy/grey/monster/ogre.pdf

 

Thanks!

[MisterVimes]

What would be really handy would be to come up with a general conversion from another game system *coughd20cough* to HERO... the biggest problem I am running into is that "To hit" and OCV/DCV don't translate well when in one system Armor makes you harder to hit and the other makes you harder to damage.

 

Thoughts?

[EternityShard]

Originally posted by MisterVimes

What would be really handy would be to come up with a general conversion from another game system *coughd20cough* to HERO... the biggest problem I am running into is that "To hit" and OCV/DCV don't translate well when in one system Armor makes you harder to hit and the other makes you harder to damage.

 

Thoughts?

 

They're roughly the same (OCV and BaB). Just use the Base Attack Bonus from d20, and not the full attack bonus (such a Str mods, specialization, etc.). If the creature has weapon finesse, then include the dex bonus in the OCV conversion.

 

DCV would be trickier, I'd only base it on Dex bonuses to AC, Dodge bonuses, and maybe deflection bonuses. Anything else contributing to AC should armor of one sort or another.

 

However, I think any sort of conversion rules would be just as complex as creating the creature from scratch in Hero. Any conversion rules I'd use would be looking at this thread to see what someone else posted as an Umber Hulk or such.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by EternityShard

They're roughly the same (OCV and BaB). Just use the Base Attack Bonus from d20, and not the full attack bonus (such a Str mods, specialization, etc.). If the creature has weapon finesse, then include the dex bonus in the OCV conversion.

 

DCV would be trickier, I'd only base it on Dex bonuses to AC, Dodge bonuses, and maybe deflection bonuses. Anything else contributing to AC should armor of one sort or another.

 

However, I think any sort of conversion rules would be just as complex as creating the creature from scratch in Hero. Any conversion rules I'd use would be looking at this thread to see what someone else posted as an Umber Hulk or such.

 

My point is that (let's use a first level fighter for example) you have a +1 BAB and lets say that a starting FH character has an OCV of 4. When that 1st level fighter reaches 10th level, he is going to have a BAB of +10, but the equivelent FH character will not have a 14 OCV (even with Combat Levels).

 

As for Complexity, yes it probably would be, but there are a lot of players and GMs out there that could probably use the help converting their favorite monster and a rule of thumb is always helpful.

 

Besides... it's a HERO tradition.

We had rules for converting just about everything back in the Adventurer's Club days... we don't Imitate, we assimilate.

[Hierax]

Converting xD&D "to Hit" to CSL

 

FWIW,

 

Basically, when converting from xD&D, I use 1/2 of the BAB (or 20-THAC0/2) to determine the OCV, or rather the CSLs of a character or creature.

 

Fighter 0 = WF

Fighter 1-2 = +1 CSL

Fighter 3-4 = +2 CSL

Fighter 5-6 = +3 CSL

Fighter 7-8 = +4 CSL

Fighter 9-10 = +5 CSL

...

 

using 1/2 keeps things from getting out of hand with really high level characters or high hit dice monsters.

 

I tried using the 1:1 ratio before but it got way out of hand.

 

I don't include xD&D bonuses from STR to the OCV, the STR affects the damage not the ability to hit in HERO. Just convert the STR to STR, Convert the DEX to DEX, and the levels/HD to Combat Skill levels.

 

One thing that I tend to do differently than a lot of HERO players/GMs is use more CSLs and less DEX. A lot of HERO write-ups tend to have highly trained combatants have a really high DEX but little to no CSLs. In the end, I think that we get about the same OCV, but I like to emphasize having CSLs represent skill, YMMV.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Converting xD&D "to Hit" to CSL

 

Originally posted by Hierax

FWIW,

 

Basically, when converting from xD&D, I use 1/2 of the BAB (or 20-THAC0/2) to determine the OCV, or rather the CSLs of a character or creature.

 

Fighter 0 = WF

Fighter 1-2 = +1 CSL

Fighter 3-4 = +2 CSL

Fighter 5-6 = +3 CSL

Fighter 7-8 = +4 CSL

Fighter 9-10 = +5 CSL

...

 

using 1/2 keeps things from getting out of hand with really high level characters or high hit dice monsters.

 

I tried using the 1:1 ratio before but it got way out of hand.

 

I don't include xD&D bonuses from STR to the OCV, the STR affects the damage not the ability to hit in HERO. Just convert the STR to STR, Convert the DEX to DEX, and the levels/HD to Combat Skill levels.

 

One thing that I tend to do differently than a lot of HERO players/GMs is use more CSLs and less DEX. A lot of HERO write-ups tend to have highly trained combatants have a really high DEX but little to no CSLs. In the end, I think that we get about the same OCV, but I like to emphasize having CSLs represent skill, YMMV.

 

Have you come to any conclusions about Bite/Claw damage to HKA ratios?

[Hierax]

MisterVimes wrote:

Have you come to any conclusions about Bite/Claw damage to HKA ratios?

 

I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

Do you mean how do I do Bite/Claw damage differently from Weapon damage for HKAs?

 

For normal (non-magical) animals I'd sometimes use the old Reduced Penetration but seldom for fantastic monsters since armor stopping their attacks too much would make them seem a bit less scary but basically it would depend on the nature of the SFX of the attack -- e.g., a unicorn horn might not be treated the same as a rhinoceros horn.

 

Is that what you meant, or something else?

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Hierax

MisterVimes wrote:

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

Do you mean how do I do Bite/Claw damage differently from Weapon damage for HKAs?

 

For normal (non-magical) animals I'd sometimes use the old Reduced Penetration but seldom for fantastic monsters since armor stopping their attacks too much would make them seem a bit less scary but basically it would depend on the nature of the SFX of the attack -- e.g., a unicorn horn might not be treated the same as a rhinoceros horn.

 

Is that what you meant, or something else?

 

Sorry, let me less Vague. If an attack does 1d4 what do you set the attack value at in HERO? or 1d6 or 1d8... etc.

[Hierax]

Claw/Bite HKA Damage

 

Mr Vimes,

 

Or if by "damage to HKA ratios" you meant the amount of dice of HKA damage, I'd just compare the amount of damage from the creature's claw/bite attack to a similar amount for a weapon.

 

i.e., do they tend to be about the same as a dagger or a shortsword?

 

The end damage after STR would be what I'd be looking at instead of the starting damage. e.g., d8 in xD&D is about the same as d6+1 in HERO, so I might give the creature a 1/2d6 HKA (2 DC) and have the STR bring it up to 1d6+1 HKA (4 DC).

 

Again, is that what you meant, or something else?

[Hierax]

Originally posted by MisterVimes

Sorry, let me less Vague. If an attack does 1d4 what do you set the attack value at in HERO? or 1d6 or 1d8... etc.

 

1d4 = d6-1 or 1/2d6 after STR. So maybe 1 pip HKA (1 DC) to 1/2d6 HKA with STR (2 DC).

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Hierax

1d4 = d6-1 or 1/2d6 after STR. So maybe 1 pip HKA (1 DC) to 1/2d6 HKA with STR (2 DC).

 

Thanks, that helps a lot. Obviously (as Eternityshard pointed out) there are a lot of variables that aren't considered in d20 that are critical in HERO (Vampiric transformation attacks as an example), but it's nice to have as much 'interpretation' as possible before heading into such a large project.

[Hierax]

Monster Damage Example - Umber Hulk

 

For example, when converting the Umber Hulk I used the following:

 

40 Claws: HKA 1d6+1 (2½d6 with STR) (20 Base Points); Penetrating x2 (+1), (40 Active Points).

 

37 Mandibles: HKA 2d6-1 (3d6+1 with STR) (25 Base Points); Armor Piercing (+½), (37 Active Points).

 

Claws: Since umber hulks burrow through solid stone with their bare claws, it seemed reasonable that they could rip through pretty much any armor. I made the claw attacks double penetrating so that they could shred their way through hardened defences. (Damage: 1e: 3-12, 3e: 8-14; average 5.5-13 = 2d6+1 K = 7 DC)

 

Bite: The bite didn't quite seem to have the same ability to shred stone but I reasoned that, due to the nature of the creature, it would still be impressive at getting by solid defences so I made it armor piercing just to give it an attack that wasn't just lesser but ever so slightly different in kind, if similar in effect. (Damage: 1e: 3-10; 3e: 5-19; average 4-14.5 = 2.5d6 K = 8 DC). Also, in the Fantasy Hero Companion (p.68) a Giant Beetle (Insect, Giant) has mandibles which to 1.5d6 HKA (3d6+1 w/ STR).

 

I might adjust the average damage slightly to get both the claw and the bite about the same so that they could fit neatly into an attack Multipower if I chose, but I wouldn't tend to adjust things more than by +/- 1-2 DC to get round numbers (depending what I want to emphasize with my version of the monster in question).

 

How do other people go about converting monster attacks?

[Syberdwarf2]

I'd do damage conversions (monsters or otherwise ) using the Standard Effect Rule. 3 points damage for every die of attack.

I'd then finf the midpoint of the damage range of the d20 die, and figure where it would be in relation to the damage class chart.

Example: d4 does between 1 nd 4 points of damage. the mid point would be 2.5 damage.

this would be closest to 3 points using standard effect, but since it doesn't quite make it, call it a 1/2d6 of HERO damage.

 

1d6 would be 1d6 HERO

d8 would be 4.5 or 1 1/2 d6 HERO

etc....

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2

I'd do damage conversions (monsters or otherwise ) using the Standard Effect Rule. 3 points damage for every die of attack.

I'd then finf the midpoint of the damage range of the d20 die, and figure where it would be in relation to the damage class chart.

Example: d4 does between 1 nd 4 points of damage. the mid point would be 2.5 damage.

this would be closest to 3 points using standard effect, but since it doesn't quite make it, call it a 1/2d6 of HERO damage.

 

1d6 would be 1d6 HERO

d8 would be 4.5 or 1 1/2 d6 HERO

etc....

 

That's a really nice conversion, thanks for the help.

[Hierax]

Standard Effect Rule = DC

 

Syberdwarf2

I'd do damage conversions (monsters or otherwise ) using the Standard Effect Rule. 3 points damage for every die of attack.

 

That's a good one.

 

You could look at it this way:

 

Standard Effect (i.e., 1/2 the dice total) in xD&D = the Killing DC in HERO.

 

d4 = DC 2

d6 = DC 3

d8 = DC 4

d10 = DC 5

d12 = DC 6

d20 = DC 10

 

I've been working on a series of dice equivalancy tables that use something like this so that dice other than just d6's can be used for HERO interchangably.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Standard Effect Rule = DC

 

Originally posted by Hierax

I've been working on a series of dice equivalancy tables that use something like this so that dice other than just d6's can be used for HERO interchangably. [/b]

 

I saw your Stat comparison tables on your website, those are really nice.

[tiger]

For conversion of bites, claws and such use their books and the Hero Bestiary.

 

You don't have to have a exact conversion system, they're hard to work and noone seems to agree on them.

 

Find a creature in the Bestiary that is close to the same type of creature and then base it's damage of that.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Baatezu, Tanar¡¦ri, and Yugoloth, oh my.

 

I thought this was a great idea, but it has gone silent for a long time. I will post an offering to the HERO community.

 

As I stated in another post I am a fan of the Planescape setting. Natural enemies of characters are the numerous fiends that inhabit the lower planes. Evil beyond all reproach, they enjoy death, and seek to bolster their ranks by perverting the living. Two of my favorite combative fiends were the vrock and the cornugon. One is a tanar¡¦ri, the other baatezu, bitter enemies of the other.

 

Here I give my idea of the Vrock. First, let me say, it is not meant to be a direct conversion. I started by choosing a respectable power level, mid superhero, for the total points, but it came out a little high. I think it is a little over powered point wise, but to take away some of its abilities or limit more would take away some of its flavor.

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Vrock

 

Bacground: Vrocks are the elite combat force of the Tanar'ri hordes.

Personality: Vrocks are truly misunderstood fiends, when not skinning large eyed puppies they enjoy tormenting petitioners of the Abyss and hunting down the forces of Light. They, as all tanar'ri will go out of their way to cause pain and distruction.

Tactics: Vrocks enjoy sneeking up on their targets when they can. They will first use darkness to blind an area, especially near mages and archers, and then wade into combat. Melee usually begins with them pumping their mirror image and then them assaulting foes with their claws. They may also carry a few javelins to throw from the air, prior to entering melee. Vrock try to focus on their speed and agility, since they do not have the strength of many other fiends. If combat is going bad, they are not afraid to take to the sky, to return and fight later.

Appearance: Vrocks stand around eight feet tall built for speed and agility, not being overly muscular. They appear to be humanoid vultures, their heads, necks, and legs almost totally avian. While their chest and arms are very human like, their hands are scaled and end in wicked claws. A pair of large vulture wings grow from their back allowing vrock to take to the skies when combat goes awry.

 

Val	Char	Cost
21	STR	11
17	DEX	21
17	CON	14
14	BODY	8
14	INT	4
13	EGO	6
25	PRE	15
10	COM	0
20	PD	16
18	ED	15
4	SPD	13
12	REC	10
50	END	8
40	STUN	6

6" RUN02" SWIM04" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 147

 

Cost	Power	END
	Vrock Natural Abilities
20	1) Beak: HKA 1d6 +1 (plus STR) (vs. PD)	2
36	2) Claws: HKA 3d6 (plus STR) (vs. PD) (45 Active Points); Reduced Penetration (-1/4)	4
2	3) Mass: Knockback Resistance -1"
9	4) Screech: +20 PRE (20 Active Points); Only For Fear-Based Presene Attacks (-1), Incantations: Must emit a Keening Screech (-1/4) (not added to totals)
18	5) Spores: EB 5d6 (vs. ED), NND: Immune to Disease (Standard; +1) (50 Active Points); Gradual Effect (5 Minutes; -3/4), No Range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Restrainable (Restricting Head and Neck -1/4)	5
20	6) Vrock Resistance: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Not Against Magical Attacks (-1/2)
14	7) Vrock Skin: Damage Resistance (14 PD / 14 ED)
	Tanar'ri Qualities
39	1) Tanar'ri Form: Life Support: Total (Immune: Disease & Poison, Longevity: Immortal, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Self-Contained Breathing)
5	2) Tanar'ri Mind: +5 Mental Defense (8 points total)
15	3) Tanar'ri Resistance: Armor (0 PD / 20 ED) (30 Active Points); Only Works Against Electricity (Very Limited Type of Attack; -1) (not added to totals)
30	4) Tanar'ri Resistance: Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%, Against Acid, Cold, Electricity, & Fire Assault (+0)
5	5) Tanar'ri Resistance: Power Defense (5 points)
	Wings
5	1) Extra Limbs (2) , Inherent (+1/4) (6 Active Points); Limited Manipulation (-1/4)
13	2) Flight 10" (20 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2)	2
40	Vrock Magic: Multipower, 40-point reserve
3u	1) Darkness: Darkness to Sight Group 2" radius, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Uncontrolled: Removed by Light Spells (+1/2) (35 Active Points)	1
1u	2) Detect Good: Detect Good 16- (Range, Sense) (14 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Costs END Every Phase; -1/2)	1
1u	3) Detect Magic: Detect Magic 16- (Range, Sense) (14 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Costs END Every Phase; -1/2)	1
2u	4) Desecrate: Change Environment 2" radius (-2 PRE rolls and PRE skill rolls, Long-Lasting: 1 Day) (38 Active Points); Only to Good Individuals (-1)	4
2u	5) Mirror Image: +4 with DCV, Reduced END: 1/2 END (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (35 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Costs END Every Phase; -1/2), Overcome By Succesful PER Roll (-1/2)	3
2u	6) Telekinesis: Telekinesis (15 STR) (23 Active Points)	2
4u	7) Teleport: Teleportation 15" (No Relative Velocity) (40 Active Points)	4

Powers Cost: 286

 

 

Cost	Skill
10	+2 with HTH Combat
3	Analyze: Combat 12-
3	Concealment 12-
5	Persuasion 15-
5	Stealth 13-
7	Tracking 14-
4	WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons

Skills Cost: 37

 

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 470

 

Val	Disadvantages
20	Distinctive Features: Aura of Abyssal Evil, Concealable, Extreme Reaction, Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses
15	Enraged: Thwarted or Tricked, Uncommon, go 11-, recover 11-
5	Physical Limitation: Slightly Larger than Human, Infrequently, Slightly Impairing
25	Psychological Limitation: Utterly Evil, Very Common, Total
20	Psychological Limitation: Overconfidence, Very Common, Strong
5	Rivalry, Professional (with other Poweful Tanar'ri), Rival is As Powerful, Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival, Rival Aware of Rivalry
15	Susceptibility: Holy PLaces and Objects, Common, 1d6 damage, per Turn

Disadvantage Points: 105

 

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 290

Total Experience Available: 290

Experience Unspent: 0