UNTIL Superpowers Database -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Talon]

I think RDU Neil has it spot on. What this book really needs is a total focus on the "user experience". Forget past traditions for Hero books; this needs to be designed from the ground up so that people new to Hero can simply and easily pick a set of powers and create a character. I think if you keep that principle in mind, it will be hard to go wrong.

[Herolover]

I think the Champions book made a great start on this in their random character generation area.

 

I like the idea of picking a character type.

Then rolling or picking powers/skills/etc that go with that character type. Then of course you could take a little from two or three types to get a really weird character.

 

All you need to do is come up with a bunch of character types. Come up with all the powers for the character types their skills etc. Of course we expect you to maintain your board presence, email presence, editing, and finish Fantasy HERO while you do this:)

 

An example of this is...well, another "powers" book from another, now defunct, system.

[MisterVimes]

Things I'd love to see:

 

1) Good ways to do 'Expert' Characters that literally have access to every skill.

2) Mimics like the absorbing man and the Super-adaptoid

3) Clearly defined Elemental Control examples (with guideline for what is and is not acceptable)

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

I think RDU Neil has it spot on. What this book really needs is a total focus on the "user experience". Forget past traditions for Hero books; this needs to be designed from the ground up so that people new to Hero can simply and easily pick a set of powers and create a character. I think if you keep that principle in mind, it will be hard to go wrong.

 

Thanks Geoff... and Wombatman... I'm glad a couple of folks agree with me.

 

A couple of posts ahead of yours, Steve does describe the basic layout of the book, and it sounds like it will do some of what we are talking about, here. A basic description of what the powers do... gradually moving into the rules heavy legalese of the "system." This could work, as long as the layout is clear and not too text heavy.

 

If beginning players can look at one small area, read a description and a flat point cost... boom... ready to go... then YAY!

[Grymlynn]

Originally posted by RDU Neil

If beginning players can look at one small area, read a description and a flat point cost... boom... ready to go... then YAY! [/b]

 

This is exactly what I think you should be after. If you manage this, you've done right.

[RDU Neil]

Example description...

 

This is off the top of my head, at work, without reference... but I think it is a good example of what can be helpful in a "powers book" for new players.

 

Ice Powers: With these powers, your character can project a solid ice ram, freeze a target in a block of ice, create a wall or sheet of ice, move quickly by projecting a thin film of ice to slide upon, and project razor sharp shards of ice in a spray.

 

The Ice Ram does 10d6 normal damage vs. physical defensese, at a range of up to 500 meters.

The ice block keeps a target from moving, and only if they can use their STR to break the 5 Defense/5 Body block, can they get out... or other characters can try to break it with their powers. The wall is the same... 5 Defense/5 Body.

The ice sheet adds 10" of ground movement with the ability to take up to 4 other people with you.

The ice shards do 1 and 1/2d6 Killing damage emanating in a cone spray from the characters position, to a total of 20 meters wide, at a distance of 20 meters from the character.

 

Then print the Multi-power that looks something like...

 

50 pts MP Ice Powers

-- 10d6EB -- Ice Rame

-- 5d6 Entangle -- Ice Block/Wall

-- +10" Running, Usable By others -- Ice Slide

-- 1 1/2d6RKA, Cone AE, No Range -- Shard Spray

 

 

Again, this is rough... but I think it gets the idea across for new players.

[Tom McCarthy]

Well, first up, I've got to say I was very impressed by Garry Morgan's article in Digital Hero #7. I would be very impressed if you could give other powers a similar depth of coverage.

 

Echoing some of the above, some interesting topics:

 

- Transmutation; what suite of powers is appropriate ? (Entangle, NND, transform, object creation, change environment, etc.)

- Time manipulation

- Superspeedster, including ways to attack multiple targets while maintaining DCV, and disadvantages

- Possession (like Jericho of the Titans) (I'm only part way through MC manuscript, so I'll see soon enough)

- psychic immortality, where a spirit or non-corporeal entity can exist after the destruction of the physical body (androids who reboot, spirits animating corpses, etc.)

- Object animation

- Long-term hypnosis and post-hypnotic effects (because the time chart makes it easy to shake the effect before it occurs)

- Duplication tricks

- Green Lantern power ring tricks; energy constructs as TK, force field, force wall, LS, summoning, EB, etc.

- Instant reincarnation; upon the character's death, another character appears

- Five who summon one; like the classic Forever People who could switch the five of themselves for one higher powered champion

- Shrinking things as an attack

- Shrinking as a way to bypass barriers

- Attacks that don't miss

- Attacks that track and follow (probably summon like Star Hero missiles)

- Wishes (probably EDM to the universe where the wish is true)

- Invulnerability to a single SFX

 

I wouldn't mind seeing magnetics written up with some more of the non-combat applications.

 

Particularly important might be guidelines for what might be appropriate applications of a SFX for Power skill rolls.

[berry04]

Lots of good ideas.

 

I would like to see some examples of Disadvantages as well - particularly those related to a given special effect. Common (or not so common) Susceptabilities, Vulnerabilities, and Physical Limitations would seem appropriate to an Until Report.

 

It might also be useful to have a offical UN statistics report on the frequency of a given power/special effect in the world. Something useful for determining whether a given effect is commone, uncommon, or very common. Of course, assigning these vaules should vary from campaign to campaign, but it would be a useful starting point for beginners.

[MisterD]

More gadgets than you can shake a stick at.

 

Until must have come across many theives, villiand and heroes that use 'UTILITY BELTS' How about a listing of gadgets and a Street level and Standard level versions of the items?

[MisterD]

See Latest Digital Hero

 

The latest issue of Digital Hero has a article on Developing power frameworks with special efect.

 

There is a bit on the special effect and the principal behind it.

 

Then there is a sample Multipower (Game world mechanics) followed by a game world explanation of how they work/affect the real world.)

 

I vote on organizing the book like the article.

[JohnTaber]

General Requests

 

Hi Steve,

 

I am starting a new campaign based on a Champions campaign that has not been run since 1984 and last night was our character creation meeting. I always have one of these so people can share ideas and ask campaign questions and such. This time I have one complete Hero newbie, and three Hero 4th edition vets. The interesting thing is that the vets had NOT seen FREd. For most of them this was the first look at it. I could go into their comments but that is another post. Anyway...some of my comments are based on last nights meeting and dealing with my players.

 

Request #1 - Scaled - It might be cool if the powers were built so that the totals could be easily fit into other standard frameworks (i.e. EC/Multipwer/VPP). Maybe you have each power have three "power settings"? This would tweak the active points to various set levels. Maybe...45, 60, and 75 or something like that. The idea is to make it easy for a laymen to throw a bunch of stuff into their framework. Our rookie and even one of the pros had a tough time getting this worked out. This might have simplified things.

 

Request #2 - Indexing - I'm not sure how it could be done but you might want to index the examples in several ways. Maybe by offense/defense/other, and by power used, and by special effect? The various entries need to be easily found.

 

That's it.

 

Bummed that I can't make DunDraCon this year but my colicky 3 month old is a bit too much to handle right now so I'm gonna give the wife a break since she is letting me game during a weeknight.

 

Say hi to Derek and Keith for me!

[Allensh]

Here's what I think you should do for the Big Book O' Powers:

 

1.) Go to Heroplay and download the PDF version of the Marvel Super Heroes Ultimate Powers Book. (it has all the corrections in it and has the approval of the author. or you can ask him for a copy on CD in step 2).

 

2.) go to http://www.classicmarvel.com/phorum/ and contact David E. Martin, creator of above work, and get him in on the project.

 

3. ) Translate said powers from said book into Hero terms, each with three levels: Low (say, 250 point heroes), standard (scaled for 350 point heroes) and High-Powered (500 pts. plus). Many of those powers will likely have to be done in Frameworks but that's ok.

 

While Marvel had it's problems and was in no way superior to Hero, the UPB remains to this day THE reference work on comic-book style superpowers. You could do far worse than to just do a Champions version.

 

My understanding about this book (and what I am hoping it will be) is a shopping list of pre-made powers for people who don't want to take the time to construct them from scratch. while it will obviously provide examples of how these powers are built, it should not be primarily oriented toward that function, although some "designer's notes" for the more complex powers might be in order.

 

Allen

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Allensh

While Marvel had it's problems and was in no way superior to Hero, the UPB remains to this day THE reference work on comic-book style superpowers. You could do far worse than to just do a Champions version.

 

My understanding about this book (and what I am hoping it will be) is a shopping list of pre-made powers for people who don't want to take the time to construct them from scratch. while it will obviously provide examples of how these powers are built, it should not be primarily oriented toward that function, although some "designer's notes" for the more complex powers might be in order.

 

I concur completely. The UPB was the best listing of Powers I have ever seen. I use it to this day for random character generation and then convert to HERO.

[SAVeira]

Originally posted by MisterVimes

I concur completely. The UPB was the best listing of Powers I have ever seen. I use it to this day for random character generation and then convert to HERO.

 

No kidding. I love that book, always a great source of ideas for years.

 

 

S.A.Veira

[tiger]

Where do you find this UPB? I don't see it on herosphere

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by tiger

Where do you find this UPB? I don't see it on herosphere

 

UPB is a MSH book. http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=2064 if you want to see a copy.

 

If you want a .pdf http://www.heroplay.com/features/rules/marvel.php

 

Near as I know, the .pdf's are posted with permission of the copyright holders, FWIW.

 

Amazing book. Well worth having just to look at.

 

D

[Killer Shrike]

Heh...glad to see some people _do_ still remember the Ultimate Powers Book.

 

 

I originally got the UPB in what, 1990 or so? Earlier? Whenever it came out. Somebody boosted my copy of it, and Ive been looking for a replacement ever since. I got a copy of the web version about a year ago or so, and it was a happy day. The web version also contains the errata & additions from 2 Dragon Magazine articles.

 

MSHA with the UPB was a fun fun fun game, and was the gateway game that brought me into Champions/HERO System as a matter of fact. Something along those lines would be very solid for the Until product.

 

It is a very cool resource and a neat thing to just read on occasion and, as I stated in my previous post on this subject, I personally think that HEROs could do far worse than to adapt some of the organizational precepts of the UPB.

 

 

However, while Im sure Steve is aware of the book Im also fairly sure that he doesnt want to intimate any undue influence from any book or Intellectual Property published/owned by another game company. I've noticed that he seems to be fairly circumspect about not mentioning other companies products directly in general, which is probably a very intelligent move on his part for a variety of reasons.

 

With that in mind, I find it unlikely that Steve would contact David E Martin and bring him in to work on a HEROs book out of the blue, but it would be a very cool turn of events if he did

[Allensh]

Sorry about the incorrect reference there..I meant Heroplay.

 

I don't expect Steve to copy the UPB, of course, but Mr. Martin did a considerable amount of research on powers and such and that knowledge might be useful. The folks who did the short-lived DC Universe game for West End must have thought so...their Directive on Superpowers book was co-written by David Martin and is essentially the UPB rewritten for the DC game (with approproate changes, of course). if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Allen

[MarkusDark]

A thought...

 

If this is about building characters and such, I would suggest something along the lines of a 'plug and play' outline. Give set variables to create certain 'archetype' characters.

 

For example:

350 point characters

Energy Projector:

3 - 60 point attacks in a Multipower

1 - 30 point defence

 

Don't know if this is making sense or not. Ideally, I loved a random character generator a friend of mine made for 4th edition rules based upon the archetypes. Something like that would be killer for cranking out characters.

[Steve Long]

Thanx for all the suggestions, guys. Keep 'em comin'.

 

A few clarifications/responses/etc.:

 

As I've said before, there'll be no gadgets. Please stop askin' for 'em.

 

I'm vaguely familiar with the Marvel RPG book you're discussing, though I've never read it cover to cover. I don't have any intention of contacting anyone and asking him to participate in the creation of the USPD, for a whole bunch o' reasons.

 

While the book is going to have some powers that, because of their various aspects, are built as Multipowers or other Power Frameworks, it's not going to have pre-built Frameworks for people. It's got powers, which you can easily assemble into whatever Frameworks you want. Organizing them into Frameworks in advance would waste page space and, in some ways, diminish the value of the book, IMO.

[Storn]

Originally posted by Steve Long

Thanx for all the suggestions, guys. Keep 'em comin'.

 

While the book is going to have some powers that, because of their various aspects, are built as Multipowers or other Power Frameworks, it's not going to have pre-built Frameworks for people. It's got powers, which you can easily assemble into whatever Frameworks you want. Organizing them into Frameworks in advance would waste page space and, in some ways, diminish the value of the book, IMO.

 

 

Not to be a contrarian, Steve, I think showing frameworks is NOT a waste of space, and very important.

 

The reason, I think this should be the book to give to beginning Hero players who are playing superheroes. A Framework(s) showing a Fire projecting character, that they can take, slap down on their character sheet and be ready to play in 10 minutes is PRECISELY what this book should aim for. So a beginning player can flip thru the book and see Fire, Ice, Brick tricks, Magneto-wannabes, Flash-clones, Wolverine-ripoffs etc. etc.

 

And as for a waste of space, c'mon, its a book about Powers (which you don't have to write out like FRED), not even gadgets (which I think you might want to rethink, it won't prevent an Ultimate Gadget book, these gadgets like Cap's Shield, spidey's webs stuff is all superheroes, Ultimate Gadget is cross-genre),... you should have tons of pages to work something like this out. If you don't, then you are being too long-winded. And this, of all the books we've put out, should NOT be over-explained. That is what FRED is for. You do not have to go into every advantage, disadvantage computation. Taht is what FRED is for. This is a book of one giant checklist.

 

Value? If we can do as much of the WORK for a new player (or harried-by-life veteran Hero player) AS POSSIBLE, then it will have Value. To present 500 powers and then say to a new player: "Well, to make this cost efficient, you should use a multipower and a Elemental Control.. go to it, you are on your own. Go consult FRED. " is mean . Nor is it good marketing. Right now, Hero needs a "gateway" product. FRED ain't it. Champions ain't it. This really could be. Make it so and it will be a "must have" for every Champions group... veteran or beginner.

[Talon]

Even if Frameworks aren't shown, I think it would be good to keep the powers at fixed Active Point levels so that they are easy to add to Frameworks. I would suggest four levels: Low (40 points), Medium (60 points), High (80 points), and Special (above 80, mostly for special-case powers).

 

I agree with Storn that it would be good to show at least a couple examples of how to use Frameworks; of course, since the power descriptions are going to be elsewhere, this shouldn't need to be more than a page of:

 

Sample EC: Fire Powers (Medium power level)

24 EC, 60 point powers, only in hero ID

24 Flame Blast (page ???)

24 Flame Shield (page ???)

24 Flame Walk (page ???)

[Tom McCarthy]

A few more ideas rolled through my head.

 

Compel the Truth - Like Wonder Woman's lasso or some commanding voice techniques, there are powers which force people to answer and answer truthfully. I'm not sure if you want non-telepathic Mind Control or non-telepathic Telepathy.

 

Luck and Hexes - Making yourself lucky is easy. Making others unlucky may be harder to simulate, so a coupel fo examples may be valuable.

 

EMP - Not so much because it's hard to write up, but because it's a power which multiple SFX may justify; magnetism or nuclear fission, for example.

 

Density - I'd like to see a few physical benchmarks in the density increase article. How dense is steel relative to flesh ? How about diamonds ? Gold, lead, iron, rock/magma, ice, wood, clay and glass may all be worth mentioning, too. Some people may need a gentle reminder than many materials just aren't as dense as you'd think (I think facet from European Enemies was way too dense). At teh other extreme, at what density does a human begin to have a noticeable gravitational field, and at what mass does he begin to have an event horizon (maybe Jim Cambias knows that one) ?

 

Earth manipulation - not a tough one to write up, but a genre bit worth a few paragraphs

[OneSmallGod]

I'd take it as a favor if each power had a "Combat Readout" listing it's average effect. That was the only way I found to accurately explain stuff to several newbie players.

 

Example: An 8d6 Energy Blast. What does it do? The Average hit will do 28 Stun & 8 Body. Against an Unprotected Normal, you can expect to knock him (lightly) unconscious in one shot. Against an opponent with Medium Protection (Body Armour), you can expect to Ring His Bell (CON-Stun him). One good shot or two average hits will knock him unconscious. A Heavily-Protected character (Force Fields, etc) may not even feel this attack...

[JmOz]

One thing I think is all but required is a message in the front of the book, in larger type, bolded, with fireworks, and anything else needed to get people's attention is a disclaimer saying that while these powers are one way to do things the true strength of the hero system is that there are many ways to reach the same effect.

 

Call me a titans freak, but a few of the powers I would like to see are as folows:

 

The ability to send out a energyform/soulself

The Jerico Effect (I know its covered already)

Ability to compel the truth

 

A section on Astral travel (that may be touching to much on Magical).

 

A section on Mental powers

 

A section on common Animal powers, things like controlling them, speaking with them, mimicing there powers, shape shifting to ANY animal, etc

 

A section on Enhanced senses, especialy different forms of detects

 

Shadow Control (aka Darkforce manipulation from Marvel, think Obsidian from DC Comics or Cloak from Marvel)

 

If I think of anything eles i will post it]