FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Storn]

Originally posted by Yamo

Not to digress, too much, but this caught my eye.

 

Personally, I've found that a magic Multipower is the best way to counteract this. The mage pays big up front for a "mana pool" of sorts, but each indidudual spell (slot in the MP) is very cheap.

 

Under this system, it's very rare for a new spell to run a mage more than 3-5 RP.

 

the problem with teh multipower which I've come up against many, many time is this:

 

A mage wants a spell that is a lot of active points, exceeding his multipower. Not hard to do. Any "dimension door", long range teleport or scrying spell will do that. Now, these are NOT overbalanced spells for the campaign.

 

1) Either you pay full cost (after disads, of course) and it will be somewhat expensive, but not horribly so. However, moore so, when you consider how many +'s the mage is going to hav eto buy to offeset the -1/10 active pts or worse, -1/5. Or what I really dislike, is that Magic Skill is too cheap and gets bought up into 25-, making many of the small and mid-range spells too easy to cast.

 

or 2) Worse, the player makes his multipower big enough (80 active pts and above folks?) to fit the spell in. Then what is preventing the player from building an offensive spell of 16d6 EB...or some NND area effect or RKA of 4d6 with area effect. Here is where a mage can totally overtake the balance of the campaign and the other PCs aoround them. Yikes.

[Yamo]

the problem with teh multipower which I've come up against many, many time is this:

 

A mage wants a spell that is a lot of active points, exceeding his multipower. Not hard to do. Any "dimension door", long range teleport or scrying spell will do that. Now, these are NOT overbalanced spells for the campaign.

 

1) Either you pay full cost (after disads, of course) and it will be somewhat expensive, but not horribly so. However, moore so, when you consider how many +'s the mage is going to hav eto buy to offeset the -1/10 active pts or worse, -1/5. Or what I really dislike, is that Magic Skill is too cheap and gets bought up into 25-, making many of the small and mid-range spells too easy to cast.

 

or 2) Worse, the player makes his multipower big enough (80 active pts and above folks?) to fit the spell in. Then what is preventing the player from building an offensive spell of 16d6 EB...or some NND area effect or RKA of 4d6 with area effect. Here is where a mage can totally overtake the balance of the campaign and the other PCs aoround them. Yikes.

 

No easy answers for any of this, but here are some of my solutions and ideas. Most of them are setting-derived and GM-imposed as opposed to hard rules from a book.

 

1. Limit the growth of Magic skill to +1 at a time and make the mage have an in-game rationale for every increase. Maybe he needs to seek out rare tomes or reclusive masters (shades of Ninja Hero here). And maybe each rare tome or reclusive master can only teach him so much. I have never run a campaign where PCs can simply increase or acquire skills willy-nilly without any logical in-game justification.

 

2. The GM just needs to always reserve veto power. Get used to saying things like "Sorry, but I don't want any RKAs bigger than 3d6; 2d6 with Advantages."

 

3. Having the Multipower fuelled by an END Reserve of some kind that either recovers very slowly or based on specific actions (meditation, sleep, lengthy spellbook study, the full moon, etc) helps a great deal to keep mage PCs balanced. Maybe the powerful wizard can throw an Area Effect RKA, but he'll also eventually "run out of gas." The powerful fighter, on the other hand, is never cut off from his four or five All Combat CSLs.

[feywulf]

a possible fix

 

Originally posted by Storn

the problem with teh multipower which I've come up against many, many time is this:

 

A mage wants a spell that is a lot of active points, exceeding his multipower. Not hard to do. Any "dimension door", long range teleport or scrying spell will do that. Now, these are NOT overbalanced spells for the campaign.

 

1) Either you pay full cost (after disads, of course) and it will be somewhat expensive, but not horribly so. However, moore so, when you consider how many +'s the mage is going to hav eto buy to offeset the -1/10 active pts or worse, -1/5. Or what I really dislike, is that Magic Skill is too cheap and gets bought up into 25-, making many of the small and mid-range spells too easy to cast.

 

or 2) Worse, the player makes his multipower big enough (80 active pts and above folks?) to fit the spell in. Then what is preventing the player from building an offensive spell of 16d6 EB...or some NND area effect or RKA of 4d6 with area effect. Here is where a mage can totally overtake the balance of the campaign and the other PCs aoround them. Yikes.

 

 

You could buy the multipower pool with limitations on part of it. Any spell needing more active points than the "regular" pool has to take all of the limitations on the extension for the entire spell, not just the part that exceeds the regular pool.

 

30 multipower 60pts

(rsr -1/2, gestures & incantations -1/2)

(60 active 30 real)

10 additional 30pts of multipower

(rsr -1/2, gestures & incantations -1/2, extratime: 1 turn -1)

(30 active 10 real)

[Chuk]

Originally posted by Mike Basinger

4. Hardback . ok I'm the only person whose Fantasy Hero did not last very well though the years. I would like to have Fantasy Hero bound in the same dryer proff way FREd was.

 

That would be cool, but I'd rather save $10 or whatever it would be. My 4th edition one only lost the back cover.

[Kage Neko]

Originally posted by Toadmaster

Specifically I would like to see examples of

 

A "D&D" clone magic system (spellbook, limited number of spells per day etc) same goes for the diety based "d&d" magic as many are going to be using d20 as a starting point, make sure to include a "magic missile" clone as that seems to be asked every couple of months.

 

A Runequests style "rune" based magic for a very differant style.

 

A "mana" based system such as GURPS (endurance battery?)

 

Magic with required prequisites (you need this to even have the potential to use magic or to cast a specific spell)

 

and finally a sort of silly or wild magic system such as the spell singer series, you have an idea of what will happen but no idea of exactly how it will occur. Caster shouts "Die" and points a finger and a flock of geese appears flying into the target knocking him off balance resulting in a fall from the cliff or sings the Who's "bucket T" and summons a riding snail.

 

Exactly, this would be great. Not just a way of doing magic over various power levels, but a set of examples showing really unique magic systems. This I feel, other than modern fantasy in general , is the hardest part for fantasy. Making a unique world is easy; making a magic system as unique is not.

[cbcarey]

Things I'd like to see addressed

 

1) How to deal with epic plot and character progression.

I am running a 'standard hero' level game that has gone on for years. We play once a month or so. We recently introduced a version of the power caps very close to those provided in the hero system. The players complain because they easily hit the cap on thier favorite attack or defense. My fear is that this will lead to characters who can all do most anything equally well. I am creating my own system to move the chars up through a ladder of increasing limitations over time, but would love to see how you handle this.

2) Missile weapon/projectile composition

I understand the way Bows/XBows/Etc. are built in HERO, using charges. That method is fine for superheros. Its harder on fantasy hero characters, who wan't to find a fletcher who makes ap arrows. When an arrow is a lowly charge, thats hard. Clearly, there are ways to do it, but the logic behind such systems always leaves my players with questions that I can't answer. Concidering how seperate the arrow and the bow are in fantasy - magic arrows - magic bows - flame arrows -- I'd love a system that allows creation of these items.

3) Alchemy

Alchemy is hard. I have seen a bunch of writups. None are entirely clear to me how they work. I want a system that lets the player learn how to make a certain potion or salve or whatever, and they can make it as many times as they want. The restrictions would be because of the components required, all expended foci, and the time required.

[cbcarey]

Other Resources

 

I have a digital copy of the ultimate super mage. That has provided a great resource for my non-super mages. I would personnally purchase a fantasy hero series. With volumes dedicated to magic/sneakery/warriors or what have you.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Ron

I remmember that although I found that Fantasy Hero (Hero 4th version) was an exciting book, some players complained that there were very few ready to use spells. I know that a Grimoire is forthcomming, but I would appreciate if you could include more examples in Fantasy Hero to help novice players.

You might want to try out the following site:

 

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/the_ultimate_grimoire.htm

 

You can use the index on the website or download a word of pdf version of the spells. I don't know the actual number of spells there, but I would guess there are over 1,000.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Monolith

You might want to try out the following site:

 

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/the_ultimate_grimoire.htm

 

You can use the index on the website or download a word of pdf version of the spells. I don't know the actual number of spells there, but I would guess there are over 1,000.

 

I've never been real impressed by that site. There's a huge quantity of spells, which is nice, but I get the feeling that not much effort has gone into creating them--the powers don't quite match the effect, the limitations are poorly described and generic, and there's no flavor writeup for the casting and effect of the spell. Even 4th ed. FH had better writeups, and they still ran out of creativity halfway through the first companion. Jeez, there's enough material in "real" supernatural occurrences to fill a grimoire--Hindu mysticism, Vodun, druids, wiccan, seances, poltergeists, this candle magic crap I keep hearing about, prestidigitation, talmudic magic, the necronomicon, ancient egyptian sorcery, viking rune and platform magic, stigmata, legendary taoist demon hunting sorcerers, native american shamanic magic, et cetera, et cetera. It seems like it should be possible to do better than (yawn) elemental magic, or superhero stuff like "crystalmancy".

[Markdoc]

In defence of the site :-) it says up front that the spells are MEANT to be generic.

 

A list of 1000 spells based around hindu mysicism would be kinda cool, but also utterly useless to 99% of GMs. There are web pages on the same site specifically describing how to create specific styles of magic - including as it happens, a Voudoun-inspired system.

 

But the whole point of the spell list is to generate a list of generic "starting points" which can then be customised as desired.

 

cheers, Mark

[Legendsmiths]

I have to side with Markdoc on this one, Old Man. The grimoire is a useful starting point for people who are new to Hero and just want to come to grips on how to make spells.

 

The problem with the sources you quoted is there are few definitive resources that provide enough detail to build spells off of, certainly in my experience anyway. If I am wrong, I challenge you to step up to the plate, throw together a simple website with links to gameable sources of information on the topics you mention.

 

If anyone is looking for a nice source of spell ideas beyond the unbalanced flash-bang of D&D, I would suggest GURPS Magic for inspiration on non-epic fantasy magic, Ars Magica for flavor and depth, and Spell Law. Authentic Thaumaturgy is also an excellent read, and can be had from SJ Games.

[Talon]

IMO, the best way to get an open-ended magic system is to treat spells as equipment -- instead of having to pay points for spells, mages pay points for the Skills and Talents needed to cast spells. That way, mages can get huge numbers of spells and don't have to worry about active point limits.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Nelijal

IMO, the weapon and armor data should represent the good and bad points of the equipment, 'balanced' or not. Some weapons and armor weren't balanced. Whether players just minmax the weapons table or actually roleplay their choices is a campaign issue, not a rules issue.

 

I couldn't disagree more strongly.

 

As Steve has pointed out, this is a fantasy game, not a historical research project. As such, certain things need to be changed for game balance purposes. In the real world, there were many reasons for choosing weapons that are not simulated in Hero: ease of training, ease of construction, cultural bias, legality, effects against populat armor, etc. If FH copies the weapons precisely without taking these factors into account, then the game is accurate in one small area, but incomplete as a whole. On the other hand, if FH tweaks the weapons so that, within the system presented, each weapon has good and bad aspects, the accuracy of the weapons may suffer, but the playability of the whole system improves dramatically. I don't think that people who choose to roleplay should be penalized via game mechanics just for choosing a weapon that's not "the best".

 

Of course, Steve has said that he likes the 5E weapon chart as is, so unless my Mind Control ray has finally kicked in, I'm expecting an expanded chart but no significant design changes. Steve, feel free to disagree.

[gamemaster1978]

I would like to see detailed spell descriptions following the spell "design" info. It can be a pain for a new player to have to look up each "power" effect just to see what his spell is suppose to do. If I have a new D&D player who wants to remember what his Leomends Tiny Hut spell does, he flips to the spell description and it tells him. The same Hero player would have to look up each power/limitation or have it explained to him or her.

 

Mainly, including the spells range, area of effect etc. in plain english somewhere in the text description would be very useful.

[Legendsmiths]

gm1978: I think that is something more appropriate for the Grimoire and won't be in the FH book. The FH book will be about making magic systems, and won't include many spells at all.

 

By and large, I think that's okay. Every world is different and there shouldn't be a canon set of spells. That said, we need to see more settings that include not only the magic system, built using the FH guidelines, but all the spells that exist for that world. Then newcomers to the system/world can pick and choose spells just like weapons/armor.

 

Unfortunately, that takes time and effort.

[gamemaster1978]

Good point mudpyr8, though there will be 3 or 4 (I think) spells written up to demonstrate the different spell system examples. While you are right, it would be more suited for the grimoire, it may be useful to come up with a format to write them up in now so as to remain consistant.

 

But either way. I'm ready to play

[Old Man]

Originally posted by mudpyr8

gm1978: I think that is something more appropriate for the Grimoire and won't be in the FH book. The FH book will be about making magic systems, and won't include many spells at all.

 

That's exactly backwards from how it ought to go. If the objective is to pull new player into the game, it needs to include a pretty good selection of spells so that players can either pick from the list or use them as examples while learning how to roll their own. While I can see the arguments for not having a default magic system and spell set, without them FH will not be a standalone game, and that will discourage new players.

 

 

By and large, I think that's okay. Every world is different and there shouldn't be a canon set of spells. That said, we need to see more settings that include not only the magic system, built using the FH guidelines, but all the spells that exist for that world. Then newcomers to the system/world can pick and choose spells just like weapons/armor.

 

Unfortunately, that takes time and effort.

 

This would be ideal, but there still needs to be enough preconstructed magic in the FH book for new or lazy players.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Of course, Steve has said that he likes the 5E weapon chart as is, so unless my Mind Control ray has finally kicked in, I'm expecting an expanded chart but no significant design changes. Steve, feel free to disagree.

 

That sounds like a comment from someone who has never played FH. The 5e weapons chart is so totally broken it turned my stomach. Why would anyone ever use anything other than a spear in the 5e world? It boggles the mind. It brings up all kinds of bad AD&Dv1 memories, where the only weapon you ever saw was a longsword.

 

I was hoping Steve was drunk or stoned when he wrote that chart, but I guess not. If it's not fixed in FH, then that's one less FH book that will be sold. I'll just play out of 1st ed.

[Legendsmiths]

I don't think FH could be a stand alone game without have some kind of default world, which is probably a bad idea. So much of fantasy needs to be examined from a Hero perspective I think FH will be fine as is.

 

As for the weapons chart, it would be nice to see a rework, but I can deal if not. I can always make my own.

 

Really, FH is more of a GM's guide, followed by a magic guide and a monster guide. 3 books to complete a system isn't that bad at all, and quite reasonable. I'm sure that armed with FH, Grimoire, and M&M you will be able to play a complete game, and that the fantasy setting they are cooking up with utilize these resources just like Terran Empire will use Star Hero. I'm all for it. With these rules I can define my world and have a complete game.

 

Huzzah!

[Aroooo]

FH feedback

 

Steve,

 

Not having taken the time (yet) to read all 93 posts so far, since I just started looking at this thread, I hope I'm not repeating. These are some issues that have come up in our recent fantasy game:

 

1) Expanded animal handling rules. When riding and not riding.

2) 'Vehicle' combat using animals. Animal reactions, rider reactions, etc.

2a) Jousting rules.

3) Expanded armor coverage/creation rules.

4) Expanded 'medieval' armor & weapons tables.

5) Expanded rules for teaching/instructing, ala the master wizard and his apprentice; or learning how to handle a sword by getting lessons from the castle guard.

6) Expanded weapon familiarity table. Break down the melee weapons into smaller categories.

 

More later as I think of it.

 

Aroooo

[GradonSilverton]

The following have always been my thoughts about Hero and the system and it applies here to some of the previous posts.

 

I've always seen Hero as the Elite roleplaying game. Are the rules simple to learn? Most would say no. Does this allow for more detail in the world? Absolutly yes. Does Hero not putting a world in their Fantasy book hurt? Cant really tell. Will this drive away the new group of teenagers who can buy D&D with the Forgotten Realms book? Probably. Will this bring in the knowledgable GM's with their players that have RPG'd for years? Probably so. Hero System is one of the best, if not THE best, system for you to adapt to YOUR world. It allows me, Joe the GM, to run games in my fantasy world without having to change the Magic system to my spells b/c Necromancers dont exist. It's all about the freedon to use YOUR experienced RPG mind and make the system yours.

 

Now as for things I'd like to see....

 

1. I believe a small fighting style section would be benefitial to most. After all, how many of us really know the combat stratigies of wielding a Great Sword in a battle?!?!

 

2. Specialized maneuvers. One of the things I liked the most of the maneuvers from the previous Fantasy Hero was the ranged Prep Fire Maneuver. It made absolute sense that I could prepare 2 arrows and unleash them. I would like to see more varients of optional maneuver like this.

 

3. More detail to Weapon Smithing. In a fantasy setting, Weaponsmith is an extremely useful and powerful tool. Expand on it a little to show more detail in process and time. Perhaps I, with a Bow weaponsmith skill, could figure out how to make poison tipped arrows without killing myself, but how much time of research should I put in?

 

4. Mounted combat/maneuvering can always use more time in any Fantasy Game.

 

5. A picture of Steve holding a bastardsword, which has impailed a 3rd Ed D&D Book, giving us a thumbs up!

[Vondy]

In the magic system chapter:

 

Could you include one magic system that is based on more subtle effects and ritual magic, with some example spells.

 

A "real" world example: Voodoo.

[Yamo]

One of the things I liked the most of the maneuvers from the previous Fantasy Hero was the ranged Prep Fire Maneuver. It made absolute sense that I could prepare 2 arrows and unleash them. I would like to see more varients of optional maneuver like this.

 

I would write this up in the book as a naked Advantage.

 

For example:

 

Legolas-style Superarchery: Autofire for up to RKA 2d6 (3 shots; +1/4) (7 Active Points), Bows Only (-1/2), Total Cost: 5 Points

 

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Yamo

I would write this up in the book as a naked Advantage.

 

For example:

 

Legolas-style Superarchery: Autofire for up to RKA 2d6 (3 shots; +1/4) (7 Active Points), Bows Only (-1/2), Total Cost: 5 Points

 

 

Or use the Rapid Fire rule for this, with multiple arrows at once being the SFX

[Yamo]

That would work, too. Your method is a little more Heroic and mine a little more Superheroic, but that's HERO for you. Love that flexability.