UltraRob Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Hey guys, Sorry if this has been covered here before (and I'm sure it has), but recently when I started my WuXia Fantasy Hero campaign I ran into an interesting problem with Armour and Defenses. Basically what happened was (in a genre where the characters are generally armour-less!) my party basically maxed out their defenses (PD:20, rPD10 was average) through stacking armour, combat luck, and any other trick they could pull off. Quickly rendering themselves pretty much impervious to any normal weapons, which started to really get to me after a few sessions (I had them jumping small armies because they decided they didn't have to worry about being hurt...) so I asked them to tone it down to max 8PD, 4rPD... Well, you can guess what followed. I had a party in which every person had...8PD, 4rPD in some combination. At which point I sighed and continued on with that, it being enough to make them cautious about combat without being vulnerable to everyone who came along. (Meanwhile, I still looked at my source material, where even a powerful character will be wary of a dagger, and sighed some more...) My point is, as you might guess...Is there a way to get PCs to not be piles of Armour in FH? I tried applying Dex Penalties, but they just pretty much ignored them. This was a 250 (150+100) point heroic level game, and of course everyone had maxed out their NCM DEX at 20 too, which also made the game kinda boring in a way. It was a HERO learning experience (my first use of FH) and I have learned from my mistakes, but the ways to keep them from being Max defenses, and Max DEX still eludes me...I want a party, not a bunch of cookie cutter combat machines. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarron Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Re: The great armour race... Maybe you need new players? I don't know if these players are into the kind of game you want to play. Try rethinking the campaign settings, like what powers are available, whether to use NCM, and whether to make the game heroic or superheroic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Maxx Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Re: The great armour race... Hmmmm... while I don't run FH myself I've got a bit of experience to work with. So here's a few suggestions: -for all of that Dex, make your player's justify it for the character being that agile, one not every Tom, Larry and his other brother Larry is going to be acrobatic specialists -for the armour race, if it's not too much of a stretch, you might want to take your group out on an ocean going adventure where all of that 'heavy' amour is just as much a threat as any danger from the sea -remember to use any limitations on any armour, especially combat luck, to the most, and make them realize that all of the points spent on this and that could have been put to better use elsewhere. Also for their rather exceptional grace you might want to have them mistaken for thief-like types and similarly graceful knaves. just a .01 IRS took the other one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jogger Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Re: The great armour race... It's kinda hard. Armour is fairly useful. Wearing armour slows you down, but if you have a good STR and don't mind (or accept) the penalities, it better than not wearing armour. You could be more creative about the penalities. It's not simply a DEX penality, but lots of extra weight that you carry around. Acrobatics? I don't think so, not in that armour. Running, swimming, jumping in armour? If someone is giving up the ability to soak damage, they need something else. They will need higher DEXs and "Roll with the Punch" to avoid being meat stains. This is your thief or martial artist. They don't get hit with damage very often, so they have to avoid it. Mages will use armour if that's an option. But mages and archers usually have to go for distance. They can't wade into combat, so they stay back and launch arrows or magic from range. If they do close to hand-to-hand, they will have to block or dodge or have a spell/ability that increases DCV or rely on what little armour they do have and not having DEX penalities. Now, pure fighters will not have this option. They will take blows that the others cannot. They don't dodge, they don't block or parry (although remind them that's an option on the exceptionally powerful attacks). If they "Roll with the Punch" there have minuses based on armour. They should not have raw DEX, but combat values which can be more useful in combat situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Re: The great armour race... I would toss Combat Luck (IMO it's way too cheap for what it gives in a low-end heroic campaign), rule that no defense powers (magic spells, armor, etc.) stack, and apply appropriate cultural limitations (my usual line is that walking into the tavern in plate and a sword is like walking into a bar with a flak jacket and M-16). Furthermore, I alter the Encumbrance table so that movement END goes up for each Encumbrance category (divide by 4,3,2,1 instead of 5 for movement END), and then apply penalties when character cross 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 total END. Even with all that, I am not surprised when everyone tosses on armor for the big fights. The point is to make armor one option among many, so that sometimes the PCs will be unwilling or unable to armor up in time for the big battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Re: The great armour race... My first preference as GM is always to try to discuss the situation with the players until I and they have compromised our way onto the same page; if that's not working for you, though, I can suggest a few more overt tacts to take to make your point. Remember that even though it's not listed that way in FH, armour is essentially a Focus; that implies that the character will not have it all the time. There are plenty of occasions when it simply won't be convenient for people to be wearing armour - social occasions, sleeping, swimming, bathing. It's within your rights as GM to occasionally hit them with something nasty when they're not steel plated. Not often, or the players will start to feel persecuted and insist on wearing mail in the bathtub; but once in a while, just to remind them not to rely on the boilerplate overmuch. Of course, should the characters be captured, one of the first things they'll be deprived of will be their ironmongery... Another tactic would be to play up the maintenance requirements of armor. Real armor needs a fair amount of time-consuming regular care to keep in shape: oiling to prevent rust, straps replaced, cracks and dents repaired, etc. You could legitimately insist on a certain amount of the characters' game day being devoted to such activities; if they can't or won't spend the time, start reducing the coverage/Defense from the armor to reflect its impaired state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrFurious Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Re: The great armour race... A few suggestions: - Armour gets worn out - especially if it's being used heavily. Reduce the protection after major battles until repaired. Repair should also be expensive - an experienced armourer may be worth his weight in gold (not to mention his pay Also, armour needs constant upkeep, especially in damp weather. Imagine having to keep the armour cleaned and oiled every time it rains - otherwise rust sets in and it begins to fall apart. Lighter armours (like leather) are much easier to upkeep. - Characters wearing armour are expecting and/or looking for trouble. Bystanders, the city guard, and especially the nobles would definitely be suspicious of a group armoured as if for war. Keep in mind that armour is meant to be used in a pitched battle. Anyone wearing armour without a good reason can be either a brigand or up to no good. People will react accordingly. - Do the characters have a right to wear armour? Depending on your campaign, armour may be reserved for the very rich and noblility. The nobility would take a dim view on an armoured peasant stepping on their perogative. If they have permission, they must be under a noble's coat of arms. The PCs actions may have political and social ramifications on the noble - as the noble's men, they could reflect badly on him. - Fatigue, movement, and DEX penalties. Looks like you've got this covered. Hope this helps. !DrFURIOUS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Re: The great armour race... Are we talking about "free" equipment armor or defenses paid for with character points? If the latter, use the good ol' law of supply and demand: Raise the price of defenses! PD and ED @ 2 points per. Likewise for FF/Armor/Force Wall/Combat Luck, etc. You can use the same idea with equipment armor: Rule that it provides less defense! Say, half the DEF listed in the book. So plate armor only gives you 4 DEF instead of 8. I keep a very tight reign on defensive powers in FH. In supers, characters bounce back from all kinds of incredible attacks, but in fantasy, people get seriously wounded and sometimes even die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... At 150+100 I'm not at all surprised at the level of defense the characters have. If you really want to limit them, LIMIT them. 75+75 would really put a sticker on really high defense. Armor can incur penalties to CV, movement, and/or active skill rolls. I agree with the no stacking of defenses to a point. A guy in full plate will get no bonus from Combat Luck, but what about the other guy wearing only a leather vest? I would recommend something like no stacking over rPD 5 or 6. After that all the defense has to come from a single source. Another thing to keep in mind is that Combat Luck doesn't work if you're Entangled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... If you are running a higher point game, characters are going to have higher characteristics, more defenses, and just more of anything that is clearly good to have. Just handle it on the upper end. A HERO System GM is never at a loss for things to challenge a party with. Also, it's a more or less self-correcting problem since everything is relative; if the PC's all have 20 DEX, then a) it's a pretty boring party to begin with and if you are forced to make all antagonists have at least a 20 DEX as well just to be competitive then the situation is really no different than people averaging around a 10 DEX since 8+11-8 is the same as 6+11-6 or 3+11-3. Further, Armor is Focus based. Opponents can attack it directly, and the Armor can take damage when it is breached by attacks. Also as someone else suggested, you can engineer situations where Armor is not appropriate. Also, you as the GM drive events and the kind of game you run is going to dictate what the PCs spend their points on. If you run a game wherein they feel that they need a 20 DEX and 12 rPD then no big suprises when players are in a big hurry to spend points there. If you run a game where they need other abilities, then they will spend their points elsewhere. You can also slow down the rate at which characters can spend Experience. In my current FH campaign characters can spend only 1 point on a given ability per in-game week. Thus it takes 6 weeks in game to get another level of Combat Luck, regardless of whether a character has sufficient Exp to buy it now or not. You can also give less Exp to slow advancement down. The lower the points of the characters the more impact this has. Currently I'm giving 0 to 4 points per session with the average being 2. I also give experience based upon performance rather than a blanket everyone-gets-the-same-amount like some GMs do. If it takes 3 sessions of play to afford another level of Combat Luck, then fewer players will jump on that bandwagon. You can also put limits on how many levels of CL a character can have based upon character points, such as 1 per 100 Character points, which strongly limits abuse. On other fronts Ive found that Deadly Blow and Combat Luck cancel each other out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... As it stands the rules for 5th inflict very few penalties for wearing armor. Given that this is a wuxia campaign where physical armor is right out of genre, I'd crank up the DCV penalties and add new ones, like saying that wuxia powers gain an 11- activation if there's any encumbrance penalty at all. And never, ever allow resistant defenses to stack. In any campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperion Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... A few suggestions: - Characters wearing armour are expecting and/or looking for trouble. Bystanders, the city guard, and especially the nobles would definitely be suspicious of a group armoured as if for war. Keep in mind that armour is meant to be used in a pitched battle. Anyone wearing armour without a good reason can be either a brigand or up to no good. People will react accordingly. This could be an especially fun way to discourage the overuse of armor. Most of the time people would think that walking into the local tavern with all that armor on will encourage the locals to challenge the hero to a fight. In addition to that would be that when the hero saves the fair maiden she is smiten. Then she meets the hero later at said tavern still wearing the same armor and gets totally repulsed. If the hero were to have changed out of the armor then hemight have been able to convince the maiden to enhance the smite rather than to repel any attempt that he might have had. In addition if a gang of marauders were to sweep into the tavern while the heavily armored heros are there the FIRST thing that they will do is deprive EVERYONE of ALL weapons and armor. Whats more these marauders will most likely not be the ordinary cutthroats that the heros are used to. They will have been praticing for several weeks and have developed several tricks and tatics that will allow them to fall even the most powerful and armored adventurer that they most likely will encounter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... And never' date=' ever allow resistant defenses to stack. In any campaign.[/quote']Well, thats one way to handle it, but certainly not the only way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraRob Posted April 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... As it stands the rules for 5th inflict very few penalties for wearing armor. Given that this is a wuxia campaign where physical armor is right out of genre, I'd crank up the DCV penalties and add new ones, like saying that wuxia powers gain an 11- activation if there's any encumbrance penalty at all. And never, ever allow resistant defenses to stack. In any campaign. I tried the DCV penalties, but they only proved to be a minor inconvienience....I didn't think of giving the powers an activation roll if there is encumberance....although that would only affect "qi gong" type techniques where they need to be able to move quickly...doing a "sword focus" type maneuver (to make your blade AP or somesuch) wouldn't really be affected much by wearing armour. In the end, the only rationales for dealing with armour I could come up with were just having it outlawed (not Uncommon in Ancient China), or having public reaction to armoured characters be...bad....(as many kind people have already suggested in this thread...) I really do like the DCV penalties idea, but I've never been able to make it work well in game...although I did think of things as severe as -1DCV per 1 DEF of total armour coverage....Never tried it out though. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilyQuixote Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... Yeah Rob I can see how this would be frustrating. One of the great things about the HERO system (among many) is it always allows a GM and the players a way to beat X with Y, Z or any of the other 23 letters in the alphabet. Try using AVLDs or NNDs or drains, entangles, AP or penetrating, find weakness, or even Change enviroment powers. I dont know if that will help you but but I hope it does. I also think putting them in situations where it doesnt matter how much death and destruction they can cause wont solve the problem is a great idea. They'll wish they dumped those points somewhere else more uselful. I play in Shrike's game right now and we have the same issues. We have a lotta new players to the HERO system and they are all stuck on the "I need more DEX, DEF, and SPD" wagon. In our last session we had a rare opportunity to spend up nine XP (if a player had nine available). Out of the four players only one really did need more SPD and so bought one more point, and another one was able to be persuaded to spend her points on far more useful things. The other two continue to buy DEX,SPD, DEF, and CLs with something their already better then average at to begin with. Meanwhile the other characters in the group are far more effective then them in most any other situation and combat as well because they have the abilities to do other things then just hit and hit first and oh yeah take a hit. Their pretty boring characters overall. Shrike and I even attemped to show them you dont need all that stuff to be a dangerous warrior in the HERO system. Yeah it helps but its not required by any means. My fighter in the group only has an 11 DEX and a 3 SPD, and he's the one guy they all fear. It so far has been all for naught though, they just don't get it. Whaddya gonna do right? In Shrike's game being a bad ass killer has some advantages of course but 98% of the time that alone is not enough. He puts us in situations where you need more then to be a deadly fighter. I hope your able to get your players to see the light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilyQuixote Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... Also, you could let people buy the 7 pt version of Deadly Blow as "Any HtH, Only Vs Combat Luck" or "Any Ranged, Only Vs Combat Luck". Ta-da; instant parity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLXC Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... I don't know why so many GM's say that Armor would be frowned upon in a town in a "fantasy" world? I mean some really metropolitan place and some special types, but in general Armor would be normal. Town Gaurds, anyone who leaves town or is coming into town, which would be a constant daily occurance. People in a fantasy world HAVE to go armed and armored when leaving the "safety" of a town, even farmers and merchants and whoever wants to live. I've found that simply applying the -DCV and -Dex rolls seems to be enough to deter all but the most determined armor wearing. When you are at -3 DCV and -3 Dex rolls from wearing your Plate... you need the armor because you are getting hit more. Also, do you all allow Armor to be at full effect vs Energy Defense? I use the half rounded up version for ED and that seems to help balance armor a bit as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraRob Posted April 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... Also' date=' you could let people buy the 7 pt version of Deadly Blow as "Any HtH, Only Vs Combat Luck" or "Any Ranged, Only Vs Combat Luck". Ta-da; instant parity.[/quote'] Err...Where do I find "Deadly Blow"? I can't find it in FReD. :-/ Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... What's the climate? Ever try wearing plate armor in ninety-degree heat? That would reduce anybody human or near-human to a quivering pile of jelly in short order. There's a good reason that heavy armor was, historically, predominantly a northern European artifact. Check a map; Europe is about the same latitude as Canada. How to game that out? Apply LTE END penalties FAST as temperature rises. 1 END every minute would not be out of line as a maximum: I doubt anybody could last an hour in the hot sun wearing full plate. When END is gone, start draining STUN. When STUN is gone, start hitting BODY (maybe a bit slower). This leads to one of my favorite home-grown magic items: Comfy Armor. It's a set of full plate with two Change Enviroment spells, each with its own Trigger. It warms up when the weather is really cold, and cools off when the weather is hot. Keeps the wearer at a steady 68 degrees F. Alternately, it could be designed with LS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirViss Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... Err...Where do I find "Deadly Blow"? I can't find it in FReD. :-/ Rob It's in Fantasy Hero, under "New Talents", P.105. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... Fantasy HERO for 5th Edition pg 105. Its essentially a naked HKA applicable to weapons of opportunity. Many people dont like it, but I find it to be just the thing to solve a lot of problems in Fantasy HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earen Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... I don't know why so many GM's say that Armor would be frowned upon in a town in a "fantasy" world? I mean some really metropolitan place and some special types' date=' but in general Armor would be normal. Town Gaurds, anyone who leaves town or is coming into town, which would be a constant daily occurance. People in a fantasy world HAVE to go armed and armored when leaving the "safety" of a town, even farmers and merchants and whoever wants to live.[/quote'] It depends on the setting. If you're running a campaign that's basically a fantasy Europe ... i.e. medieval Europe with "all the legends are true" added to it ... then no, armor would not be that common. The "saftety" of a town as you put it would be provided by the militia or the army of the local lord and they would be the ones who would wear armor ... maybe. A farmer wouldn't have the money to spend on armor ... they would just avoid the haunted forest with the werewolves in it on their way to town to sell their grain or whatever. Conversely, I've had characters arrested for having weapons on them inside of towns. They were supposed to have turned in all their weapons at the gate. It helps to keep the peace when only the town guard is armed. The local townsfolk would laugh at someone walking the streets in full plate with no weapon in that type of setting ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadorn Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... What's the climate? Ever try wearing plate armor in ninety-degree heat? That would reduce anybody human or near-human to a quivering pile of jelly in short order. There's a good reason that heavy armor was' date=' historically, predominantly a northern European artifact. Check a map; Europe is about the same latitude as Canada.[/quote'] And has the gulf stream to warm up England, Norway and Sweden. It's not all cut and dry... How to game that out? Apply LTE END penalties FAST as temperature rises. 1 END every minute would not be out of line as a maximum: I doubt anybody could last an hour in the hot sun wearing full plate. When END is gone, start draining STUN. When STUN is gone, start hitting BODY (maybe a bit slower). This leads to one of my favorite home-grown magic items: Comfy Armor. It's a set of full plate with two Change Enviroment spells, each with its own Trigger. It warms up when the weather is really cold, and cools off when the weather is hot. Keeps the wearer at a steady 68 degrees F. Alternately, it could be designed with LS. Heroic fantasy generally doesn't worry about the details. Did Aragorn and Gandalf get frostbite when they crossed through the snowy mountains? Heroic fantasisits generally don't sweat the details. But there is another realistic Fantasy sub-genre that sometimes does (Druss the Legend, ala.). How heroic is this? "You die from frostbite, sorry Sauron wins." Now low fantasy is another story all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrFurious Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Re: The great armour race... I don't know why so many GM's say that Armor would be frowned upon in a town in a "fantasy" world? I mean some really metropolitan place and some special types' date=' but in general Armor would be normal. Town Gaurds, anyone who leaves town or is coming into town, which would be a constant daily occurance. People in a fantasy world HAVE to go armed and armored when leaving the "safety" of a town, even farmers and merchants and whoever wants to live.[/quote'] The control of armour and weapons is in the best interest of the ruling powers. You don't want the majority of the population to easily be able to rise up against the established order. This applies to "legitimate" uprisings as well as radical factions. Imagine if you are the town council with a group of guards pledged to keep peace and order. Would you much rather stop a brawl between unarmed and unarmoured peasants or a pitched battle between lethally armed and armoured combatants. In general, it makes sense to keep the superiour arms and armament in the hands of a lawful organization. Now, if in YOUR fantasy world, there is a much more menacing outside threat, then it can be reasonable for most (if not all) of the population to be armed and armoured. I'd imagine this might be appropriate for a frontier town facing constant attacks by barbarians/orcs/whatnot. But for the most part, towns and cities are meant to be places of safety and commerce deep in civilized territory. It is out of character to be dressed for war in such locals. !DrFURIOUS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraRob Posted April 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: The great armour race... Well, I solved one problem.... The players were just involved in a major battle between rival factions totalling over a hundred people in the campaign city...as such all weapons and armour are now illegal to wear in public inside the city until further notice....And there are guards everywhere. Of course, since the PCs orchestrated the war...they have nothing to complain about... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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