House Rules for Hit Location

[Toadmaster]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

One fix to this that maintains balance while still making hit locations useful is to treat this like the haymaker rules. Just give a fixed bonus or penalty to each location. For example:

 

Head +4 DC

Vitals/Stomach +2 DC

Chest/Shoulders +0 DC

Arms/Legs -2 DC

Hands/Feet -4 DC

 

These modifiers can't more than double or halve the initial attack. So the 10 Str normal would do 4d6 at most, and 1d6 minimum, while the 60 Str brick will do 16d6 max and 8d6 minimum.

 

This idea won't work with killing attacks unless you don't link hit location to the stun multiple.

 

Thats not a bad idea, it really follows the idea of its more important where you hit not what you hit with, so a .22LR pistol shot (DC2) to the head will wind up doing 1d6+1 (DC4) killing while a .357 Magnum (dc5) to the leg would only do 1d6 (dc3). I'll have to try experimenting with this concept.

[Gary]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Thats not a bad idea' date=' it really follows the idea of its more important where you hit not what you hit with, so a .22LR pistol shot (DC2) to the head will wind up doing 1d6+1 (DC4) killing while a .357 Magnum (dc5) to the leg would only do 1d6 (dc3). I'll have to try experimenting with this concept.[/quote']

 

 

Tell me how it turns out. I'd be curious.

 

If you use this idea with killing attacks, it's probably better to have a fixed stun multiple, or roll the stun multiple regardless of hit location. It may be too devastating to have both +4 DC and an automatic 5 stun multiple for head shots.

[Dust Raven]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

It's quite true. I checked the math. Given: A DEX of 43 = base OCV of 14. Sacrifice Strike adds +1 OCV for a total of 15. Ogre has a Dex of 20 for a 7 DCV. -7 for the neck hit location yields a outright hit chance of 12 or less which is 62.5 percent.

 

Now, if you don't hit outright, you roll 3d6 and see where it did land. On a 10, 11 or 12, you hit the head, anyway. That's about a 36% chance. (79/216) So the chances of missing the base attack, but still hitting the head = ((1-.625)*.36) or about 13.5%. Add that to your 62.5% chance of hitting the base attack and there's your 76% I was talking about.

 

head shot, head shot, head shot, hari hari, lama lama, head shot head shot, head shot.

Besides the fact that you're looking at a DEX of 43 versus a DEX of 20... (of course he's gonna win...I don't care what Hit Location chart you use if even if you use one....40 versus 30?)

[Dust Raven]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

I love figuring out probability but I hate trying to explain it. It seems my math above is a bit off (my apologies).

 

Okay, I do thiis a bit weird, because I like nice round nothing past a single decimal place numbers. Math Purests might still find that these are good, though rough, approximations:

 

Assuming your OCV equals the target's DCV (the actual values don't matter this way), you have an 11- chance of hitting (roughly 65%) and from that, a 5- (5%) chance of hitting the head. This give you a (5% of 65%) 3% chance of hitting the head, a 62% chance of hitting someplace other than the head and a 35% chance of hitting air.

 

Using the standard rules, if you wanted to hit the head, you'd have a 3- (0.5%) chance of hitting, a 95.5% chance of striking air and a 0% chance of hitting anything other than the head or air.

 

Using etherio's rules, if you wanted to hit the head, you'd still do so automatically with a 0.5% chance, but there's still a 64.5% chance you've hit something, although it could still be the head, air or any other location. Assuming you aim for the Crown (giving you the best probability to hit someplace on the head) and roll something between 4 and 11, you have a (3-8) 25% chance of missing (out of 65% that give you about +15% total of missing). If you roll a 9-11 (40% of 65%) you hit the head and if you roll 12-18 (the remaining 35%) you hit someplace else. The totals give you a 25% chance of hitting the head, a 25% chance of hitting someplace else and a 50% chance of hitting the air.

 

It's not much more lethal, considering these values jump around as much as the CV does. Assuming you always aim for the head (and who doesn't in the movies?) about 20% more of your attacks will hit it, while about

15% chance more will miss. Seems like a good balance of you want a more lethal game. Though if you're playing a standard heroic level genre, the extra damage you take won't be much.

[BNakagawa]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Using these house rules, some guy who has 1 less ocv than my DCV has a 50% chance to hit my whole body. If he aims at my neck, then he has a 18.75% chance of drilling me in the head. So, what, my head is roughly 37.5% of my body mass?

 

Who am I, Mr. Met?

[Dust Raven]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Using these house rules, some guy who has 1 less ocv than my DCV has a 50% chance to hit my whole body. If he aims at my neck, then he has a 18.75% chance of drilling me in the head. So, what, my head is roughly 37.5% of my body mass?

 

Who am I, Mr. Met?

Not 37%, but considering the attacker is aiming for it...

 

Consider a boxing match. Nobody gets hit in the feet...or in the legs. The boxers always aim above the belt, and that increases their chance of hitting the head. Usualy, they aim for the head and have a pretty good chance of hitting hit.

 

I did think of another plus for this alternatate rule... Blocking. If you have a -8 to your OCV it all but guarenteed that any attempt to block the attack will succeed. This doesn't make much sense to me. An unaimed punch shouldn't be that much more difficult to block (or an aimed punch that much easier). Not that blocking is necessary if your opponent has a -8 to his OCV.

 

Same thing with Dodging. If your opponent is taking that big a penalty you can reasonably ignore his attack because he's gonna miss unless his OCV is normally obsene (in which case your only chance is to hope his attacks can't penetrate your defences).

[etherio]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

...I did think of another plus for this alternatate rule... Blocking. If you have a -8 to your OCV it all but guarenteed that any attempt to block the attack will succeed. This doesn't make much sense to me. An unaimed punch shouldn't be that much more difficult to block (or an aimed punch that much easier). Not that blocking is necessary if your opponent has a -8 to his OCV.

 

Same thing with Dodging. If your opponent is taking that big a penalty you can reasonably ignore his attack because he's gonna miss unless his OCV is normally obsene (in which case your only chance is to hope his attacks can't penetrate your defences).

Good point, Raven...I think I mentioned in an earlier post (or was that on another thread?) that the use of this system has increased the use of the Block maneuver. I believe it's because of the slightly more deadly nature of combat, but whatever the reason, it has enriched the dynamic of combat and diversified actions that characters take.

 

Speaking of boxing, this discussion has prompted me to revisit an idea that I had a while back to compliment this system. I have considered incorporating a counterpart method for the aiming system in how a character applies his DCV levels, or "guards." In every type of HTH fighting style in the real world, there is some form of addressing what area of the body one is focussed most on defending. Attackers, conversely, are encouraged in their training to try to work around that. A boxer is often told by his trainer during a fight to "keep his guard up," to protect the head, while a karate instructor may emphasize keeping one's hands in an abdomen-high blocking posture to maximize the body area that is protected.

 

I'm working on something in that vein, and I'll post it if I get a chance to playtest it. I think that it may have some useful application for MA, especially, in differentiating the way that different styles play out in the game.

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Etherio, have you done any updates? I am starting a game where I'll be using your rules, so interested. Thanks.

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

PS - Etherio, how should I credit/link you for using your rules? I'll be putting them on my web page.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

PS - Etherio' date=' how should I credit/link you for using your rules? I'll be putting them on my web page.[/quote']

hey zornwil,

what is your webpage? your profile has http://www.asterick.com/realschluss/x-champions/ listed but I can't find that?

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

hey zornwil,

what is your webpage? your profile has http://www.asterick.com/realschluss/x-champions/ listed but I can't find that?

Whoops, sorry, I'll edit my profile, it used to be there but I set up the domain as http://www.realschluss.org - basically X-Champions is the main thing going on, though Disavowed just got added as that's the newest thing for me.

 

(PS - straight to x-champions = http://www.realschluss.org/x-champions/)

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Whoops, sorry, I'll edit my profile, it used to be there but I set up the domain as http://www.realschluss.org - basically X-Champions is the main thing going on, though Disavowed just got added as that's the newest thing for me.

 

(PS - straight to x-champions = http://www.realschluss.org/x-champions/)

I should have mentioned that Disavowed is now set up at http://www.realschluss.org/disavowed/

 

We did the first game tonight of this. I should add, if I didn't mention it already, i've actually never run a HERO low-powered game with hit locations. So this was new. I think the modified Hit Locations thing works really well though. I like how it compensates for missing the location but stil making the hit roll with the modified location roll. So far, anyway, will have to play with it more, but right now at least I'm happy to be getting the hang of it and seeing that I think it's going to be good.

 

Thanks again Etherio!

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Just sharing...

 

We've developed a set of house rules for hit locations that works well. It's best for those who like things a bit more lethal in their games, but it's not really unbalancing. A Word file of our character sheet is attached, so you can check out our hit location chart (you'll need to, in order to follow this).

 

Here's how it works:

 

Same as normal, except that every time a character attempts a targetable attack, he chooses a specific hit location from the chart. (If he fails to choose, the default is location 11.) If he succeeds by the "Auto Hit" number for that location (the "to hit" mod for targeting that location in the normal rules), then he hits the location he chose. If he succeeds, but not by that number, then he rolls for hit location. His roll is modified by the "Mod" number for the location he targeted, and the result is the actual location hit. What the "Mod" does is center the bell curve on the targeted location. A modified number that is off the chart (less than 3 or greater than 18 for most attacks) is a miss. You aimed too high or low, basically.

 

There are no "high shot" or "low shot" maneuvers in this system. For attacks that are inherently high or low (such as a punch or a non-martial kick), use the appropriate column. For punches and the like, roll 2d6 with the "Mod" number; for kicks and such, roll 2d6/2 with the "Mod" (no, not 1d6, we need a distribution curve).

 

This might seem weird at first, but it's easy and fun.

 

Try this alternative next time you play a scenario that uses hit locations. I bet you'll like it.

 

Ciao.

To anyone interested in this, please note that I have reproduced, in the link above, the chart which seems to no longer be on the board for this elegant, excellent proposal by Etherio

 

This is one of the few tweaks I really do think MUST be incorporated into HERO. It is a far better solution yet leaves the system virtually unchanged in process/mechanism.

[Fox1]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

This is one of the few tweaks I really do think MUST be incorporated into HERO. It is a far better solution yet leaves the system virtually unchanged in process/mechanism.

 

Why "MUST"?

[prestidigitator]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Hmm. Well, for heroic games I usually use no Hit Locations (except when it is dramatically interesting). If someone makes a called shot, I use the standard penalties, but if they miss by less than half the penalty for the location, I have them roll damage as if it were a normal (non-targetted) shot. If they miss by more than half the penalty, they miss (spent too long aiming, were aiming for an extremity that made them more likely to miss, etc.).

 

As for Blocking targetted shots, I probably wouldn't include the penalty for the location in the attacker's OCV for pusposes of the Block. Or maybe I'd include half of it. I don't think I've had it come up yet.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about an expanded Hit Locations Chart. Since you can normally choose the actual number you hit when you manage to do a targetted shot, I don't think the actual location is an issue there--the idea is just that if there is a place that is unarmored you can hit it. So I tend to use the actual number in a range to represent the size of the area that armor does or does not cover, rather than the actual position of the area. For example, in a suit of armor that covers everything but the eyes, I might say the helmet covers all but 3 (since it is a small area that is not covered and 3 is has the lowest probability of the 3-5 range); for another suit of armor which covers the whole head but leaves a small open space beneath the helm, I might also use location 3; for an open faced helm, I might use location 5 for the face (including eyes), and locations 3-4 for the covered areas.

 

EDIT: Actually, in the very last example I gave I think I would use locations 3-4 for the exposed face, since both put together still have a smaller probability than 5 alone; 4/216 vs. 6/216), but the whole point of the examples was to show a different concept--the imporance of probability vs. actual location.

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Why "MUST"?

'Cause I said so?

 

Seriously, I think it allows a better result when targeting a part of the body and missing. The rules as is don't deal with this well, you just plain miss even if you're a great shot but your placed shot fails.

 

HOWEVER, I was rechecking and realized that this is a deliberate rule regarding not hitting at all if you don't hit a specified location. Upon retrospect, I suppose some people really like that. I just forgot that in my enthusiasm.

 

Personally, though, this is one of the few changes I am quite sure I would make in HERO if I ran the company. I speculate a lot about potential change, but few of the things I've discussed would I really enact. This actually makes the cut.

 

But "must', well, no, not really. So long as people like doing it badly, then it does have the credibility that comes with inertia... (the last sentence was a joke - since I realize people may actually like it the way it is, duh, then I have to recant a bit though I will say I think this handles placed shots better)

[Fox1]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

HOWEVER' date=' I was rechecking and realized that this is a deliberate rule regarding not hitting at all if you don't hit a specified location. Upon retrospect, I suppose some people really like that. I just forgot that in my enthusiasm.[/quote']

 

Yes.

 

I was thinking of how upset someone running the Lone Ranger would be when he attempted the classic shoot the gun out of the guy's hand without hitting him.

 

Then again, how often did you miss such an attempt? I'm not a faithful watcher...

 

It's a better rule when aiming for center of mass. Consider, if you aim for the head what happens to all those high shots (or left/right shots for that matter)? What about low shots at the feet?

 

Didn't mean to ruin the thought. It IS sort of cool. The stock, you miss does leave open the question of where the bullet went.

 

I thinking about using it as the baseline for center of mass shots in any case....

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Yes.

 

I was thinking of how upset someone running the Lone Ranger would be when he attempted the classic shoot the gun out of the guy's hand without hitting him.

 

Then again, how often did you miss such an attempt? I'm not a faithful watcher...

 

It's a better rule when aiming for center of mass. Consider, if you aim for the head what happens to all those high shots (or left/right shots for that matter)? What about low shots at the feet?

 

Didn't mean to ruin the thought. It IS sort of cool. The stock, you miss does leave open the question of where the bullet went.

 

I thinking about using it as the baseline for center of mass shots in any case....

You didn't ruin it, it was a fair question!

 

If you check, though, there are some rules around the high/low question - the rules as I received them and use them say "a "high" or "low" shot is considered a miss when the modified hit location roll is off the chart. For these kinds of attacks, "off the chart" includes those locations where a double dash appears in the respective "Mod" column."

 

Re the "shooting the hand" thing, is that a shot at the hand or the Focus? If the Focus, I'd just apply normal rules, and I THINK that MOST of the time that would really be what someone is trying to deal with. However, you raise a good point there, and I neglected to say in the write-up that I would deal with that sort of thing based on position of the hand relative to the body - if you're not a crack shot and the guy's hand is right in front of his body and you try to hit...well, be prepared for a much worse wound than you intended! However, if you're not a crack shot but you're shooting at the guy's hand from the side and you hit but missed the hand, I'd just say that you either hit the arm IF that was your follow-up area but otherwise you're "off the chart" as with the high and low thing.

[Fox1]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

If you check' date=' though, there are some rules around the high/low question - the rules as I received them and use them say "a "high" or "low" shot is considered a miss when the modified hit location roll is off the chart. [/quote']

 

Ah, I see. Not bad.

 

I see a problem with center of mass shots (i.e. the default in reality). I don't see how you could possible miss with something that would hit so to speak. However the -3 modifier could result in just that.

 

Low chance, one could perhaps claim that the default unmodified shot is aimed at the best target aspect instead of center of mass (i.e. chest) and just call it good...

 

I may steal it.

[etherio]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Zornwil's enthusiasm for my little pet rule system makes me extremely proud. He's an obviously highly intelligent reptile, and sincere praise is awesomely gratifying for something that you put so much of yourself into. I did put a lot of thought and time into these rules, and I feel that they're pretty cool, if you don't mind the extra bit of added lethality. And I don't, for most heroic-scale games.

 

As with everything I share on these forums, if any one of you gets a little more out of your HERO gaming because of something I contributed, then the effort is worth it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Hmm. Well' date=' for heroic games I usually use no Hit Locations (except when it is dramatically interesting). If someone makes a called shot, I use the standard penalties, but if they miss by less than half the penalty for the location, I have them roll damage as if it were a normal (non-targetted) shot. If they miss by more than half the penalty, they miss (spent too long aiming, were aiming for an extremity that made them more likely to miss, etc.).[/quote']

BTW, I think if I were using full rolled Hit Locations, I would use the same rules, but if the "miss" was by less than half the targetting penalty I would either have them roll the 3d6 for a completely random hit, or roll the appropriate placed shot (High Shot, Low Shot, or whatever they are called) location instead. I think it is still appropriate that if you miss by more than half the penalty, you miss entirely.

[Lamrok]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Zornwil's enthusiasm for my little pet rule system makes me extremely proud. He's an obviously highly intelligent reptile' date=' and sincere praise is awesomely gratifying for something that you put so much of yourself into. I did put a lot of thought and time into these rules, and I feel that they're pretty cool, [i']if you don't mind the extra bit of added lethality[/i]. And I don't, for most heroic-scale games.

 

As with everything I share on these forums, if any one of you gets a little more out of your HERO gaming because of something I contributed, then the effort is worth it.

 

I spent a lot of time working out my own system to address the same concerns, but yours is clearly better. (Mine was too complicated and pretty much unworkable in actual play.) When Zornwil announced we'd be using such a system, I was a bit hesitant, but it worked quite well in actual play.

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

I spent a lot of time working out my own system to address the same concerns' date=' but yours is clearly better. (Mine was too complicated and pretty much unworkable in actual play.) When Zornwil announced we'd be using such a system, I was a bit hesitant, but it worked quite well in actual play.[/quote']

I like its simplicity, its elegance. At first it seems complex because it's a different way of looking at the problem yet only by this one odd degree, really. I know it was a little slow and it'll probably still be a little slow tomorrow since we haven't played that campaign in so long, but we'll get faster. Heh, maybe fast enough to uncover any flaws! But, seriously, glad to hear you liked it, Lamrok, we didn't really discuss afterwards, as to mechanics I mean, and I haven't thought to ask.

 

We should be able to get it down pat since I'll be reusing this for Cyber Ninja Pirates in Space.

[etherio]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

I like its simplicity, its elegance. At first it seems complex because it's a different way of looking at the problem yet only by this one odd degree, really. I know it was a little slow and it'll probably still be a little slow tomorrow since we haven't played that campaign in so long, but we'll get faster. Heh, maybe fast enough to uncover any flaws! But, seriously, glad to hear you liked it, Lamrok, we didn't really discuss afterwards, as to mechanics I mean, and I haven't thought to ask.

 

We should be able to get it down pat since I'll be reusing this for Cyber Ninja Pirates in Space.

 

Curious how the rules are working for you after some playtesting. Any bugs you found?

 

Also, "Cyber Ninja Pirates in Space" sounds fun as hell just from the title.

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Hit Location

 

Curious how the rules are working for you after some playtesting. Any bugs you found?

 

Also, "Cyber Ninja Pirates in Space" sounds fun as hell just from the title.

Yes, a few things, it's in a state of flux since the purpose has mutated to be something different, a game now centered on its own version of swashbuckling fiction gaming. Major thing tossed out was the idea of extra moves (may come back in a very different way with multiple actions at penalties, which I have some ideas that will extend even to superhero stuff, I think), big rework to martial arts to make it more interesting and also more worth the points, some things working well with the chips system and discovered a good way to encourage the group effect with enforced shared rewards. Lots of stuff...