Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

[Hyper-Man]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been working on a multi-genre, quasi-military, dimension hopping campaign (think 'Sliders' meets 'Stargate: SG-1') using HEROIC rules with starting point levels in the 250-300 point range.

 

I basically want to devise a fair system to allow nearly any character type short of a full powered super since anyone will be able to pick up 'items of oportunity' and keep them with out paying points.

 

The 3* clear options so far are:

 

1. All the variations of skilled normals (martial artists, modern weapon master, sword masters etc.. as well as all the variation of non-combat types) These guys are going to be very very good at what they focus on. Since they are going to be up against magic, psionics and everything in between they need to be.

 

2. Spell based characters since the new FHG spell system puts these types on a somewhat equal footing with the gun crowd since spell component availability can vary just like ammo and favor spell casters in some dimensions and gun users in others. Also spell casters tend to stand out in a crowd far more than any other type and tend to draw enemy fire because of this I think this balances out the variety of abitlities they bring to the table. plus: running a mage is well is still one of the most complex characters regardless of gaming system.

 

3. The last group I want to add to this mix is the classic Psionic varieties: telekinetic, telepaths as well as any other single theme, low power 'super' types (like old Legion of Superheroes) that are setup with similar limitations as spell casters in that the 'powers' have to be turned on. nothing always on. skill rolls would use EGO instead of INT. Since I do not want to rehash spells from FHG and I want Psi's to have a different flavor than spellcasters but not be more powerfull I planned on letting them use elemental controls and limited multipowers both having fit very very tight themes. The idea being that spell casters and Psi's are tapping into the same energy except for Psi's it far more tightly focused and limited in scope than even the spell colleges in FHG.

 

*(4.) Lycanthropy, Vampirism or any other mystical creature hybrid would be allowed but not encouraged since it would have to be worked out case by case.

 

I don't want any one type of character types to be obviously 'better' than any other. I am trying to encourage uniqueness as well as teamwork in almost any world setting amongst players (On some worlds gunpowder will not burn, others will be low/zero magic, ditto with Psionics)

 

As a test case for Psionics I am attempting to create a classic 'Jedi' telekinetic. That is, the telekinesis is invisible (no 'green glowing' hand for example) with some degree of fine control and not too much strength (20-40 max) forcewall, missle deflect etc.

 

Should these types of powers be built fully invisible power effects (+1), all but mental senses (+3/4) or to sight only (+1/2) with the anime convention (see 'Witch Hunter Robin' on cartoon network) that the visibility of power in use is based on the level of strength being displayed? (ie.. lifting a pencil accross the room would not make the TK user obvious but lifting a car would)

 

If I enforce (+1) it makes the character expensive and underpowered and almost too powerful in certain situations (think Vader choke hold coming from nowhere)

 

Any Ideas on what guidelines to give potential 'Psi' characters when compared to 'Mage' and 'Normals' ?

 

I welcome any and all opinions on this. I think this type of simultaneous genre blurring is what the HERO system was ultimately designed to do better than any other system out there!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

I run a normal Supers campaign that involves a lot of Psionics. The way I handle it is to hand wave the IPE and just say there are no visible indications that an object is being moved telekineticaly.

 

This isn't the same as IPE, because anyone looking will be able to tell which character is moving it and will be able to tell it's something TK like doing it. Same things go for TK Force Fields and Force Walls. You can't see them, but you know they're there. Watch all the Star Wars movies and tell me if you can't tell which character is using TK or not.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

I run a normal Supers campaign that involves a lot of Psionics. The way I handle it is to hand wave the IPE and just say there are no visible indications that an object is being moved telekineticaly.

 

This isn't the same as IPE, because anyone looking will be able to tell which character is moving it and will be able to tell it's something TK like doing it. Same things go for TK Force Fields and Force Walls. You can't see them, but you know they're there. Watch all the Star Wars movies and tell me if you can't tell which character is using TK or not.

 

Thanks for the feedback,

 

I have seen similar ideas on other sites but I am worried that this kind of ruling would unbalance Psionic based characters in comparison to Mage types in particular since I plan on using the FHGrimoire writeups for available spells which only a few of which are obviously invisible. I will probably split the difference and go with a (+1/2) advantage for TK based effects with a sliding scale of visibility around the character using the power based on how much power he is actually using.

 

Also, the comparison to Jedi is good but not exact. Do we ever see a Jedi use Telekinesis at a range much higher than about 4-8"? I don't think so, and although I would build a "true" Jedi TK with the gestures limitation I would not let that be an automatic excuse to not force a potential "true" Jedi to buy some level of IPE for the power too. Since we never see Jedi using TK at high ranges maybe some type of reduced range limitation would be another appropriate limitation.

 

I guess my real question to the discussion boards that I was trying to ask with the TK/IPE example is how to use the existing heroic level rules with as little modification (and added character creation complexity) as possible by way of "house rules" to allow the absolute widest variety of character conception and preserve game balance.

 

I already know that game balance and player interest will hinge upon the following cruical factors:

1. Availability of real weapons and ammo supply

2. Magic/Future-Tech item as well as spell component** availability and ammo supply

2. Current/Future-tech physics (see the 'Amber' novels by Roger Zelazny)

3. Local magic and/or psionic physics## (see 'Magic Goes Away' universe by Larry Niven)

 

** The spell system in FHG creates most spells with an alternate to the more common charge limitation disguised as 'expendable focus'. This basically puts the availability of spell components firmly in the GM's control just like modern weapon ordinance. I like it in the sense that the players are not forced to do more calculations depending on the number of spell castings they want to be able to do at the same time keeping endurance as a factor which would not occur normally with charges.

 

## Although Psi's can be thought of as low powered 'supers' I am wary of allowing any concept that involves inherent resistant defenses like damage resistance or armor, I wan't guns and swords to still be a threat to all characters. Vampires, Werewolves and other such mystical creature/character hybrids have their own well know weaknesses and therefore would be allowed. I could create a 'kryptonite-like' artificial counter to Psi's like 'orbo' from 'Witch-Hunter Robin' but I don't wan't the game to revolve about any one type of threat.

[Zed-F]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

For Jedi TK, I would actually go with Stretching, does not pass through intervening space, limited body parts (arms/hands), with extra strength, no figured cha, linked to stretching.

[Vorsch]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

If you cant build TK with Tk whats the point?

 

Im also sure this violates one of the metarules 6?

[Zed-F]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

Of course you can build TK with TK. It's just (a) much more expensive, ( costs a lot more END, and © doesn't reflect the limitations inherent in some forms of TK very well.

 

If you couldn't do TK-like things with Stretching not over intervening space, why would they have it in the book? Among characters I've seen posted here, it seems to be a pretty popular choice for a relatively short range but powerful form of TK... like the kind shown in the SW movies.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

Now you guys are getting off subject. Like that never happens on this board! LOL

 

If you start substituting stretching for TK you start skirting issues on another recent post regarding movement and TK. Stretching uses cause and effect rules that TK bypass. That is, if I grab a character with flight and he takes off and and I don't have flight He will do one of the following:

 

A. Not go anywhere until I let him.

B. Breaks the TK hold due to boneses to his STR roll from his flight inches.

 

Using stretching adds a third option similar to a 'tractor' beam. I could get pulled allong (which makes NO sense whatsoever for a Jedi).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

Also,

By default Tk is more expensive than the stretching option because it is inherently an Indirect power. Stretching is not to my knowledge. It would have to be bought as an extra advantage and would probably put the cost back in line with that of standard TK since it is a (+1/4 to +3/4) adder.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

Actually Stretching is also Indirect (in the sense that you can strike a target from any dirction) and adding Does Not Cross Intervining Space makes it Fully Indirect.

 

The problem with using Stretching to simulate TK is that fact you actually have to touch the target. This will set off Damage Shields. Even if the GM hand waives that due to SFX, there is still the issue that the Grab maneuver reduces your OCV and DCV when performed, and if successful puts you at 1/2 DCV while the item is grabbed (assuming the target is a character, or on object of equal size/mass). TK allows you to bypass all of that and perform TK grabs without sacrificing DCV.

 

Of course, that 1/2 DCV thing might explain why they Yoda had to stand still to lift an X-Wing or catch a falling pillar. So whatever works .

 

Getting back on topic...

 

I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for, Hyper-Man. If you insist on using IPE, those Power will be more expensive, and rightly so. If you just want to differentiate between magic and psionics, but have the costs come out to about the same, you can simply choose a set of Modifiers to define each, or make requirements that each SFX must abide by.

 

One thing I've done in previous games is define magic as using "external" energy. Spells had to draw off an END Reserve, and all must cost END. Psionics used "internal" energy, and could be bought to 0 END or use the character's normal END. I also limited the types of Powers that could be chosen for each SFX (Mental Powers were almost always Psionic, for example). I also detailed what visiblity aspects of each would require (no Psionic "light effects"). Magic ended up being much more versitile and varied, but Psionics was a bit more powerful and sometimes cheaper, but tended to tire out characters quickly if used too often.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for, Hyper-Man. If you insist on using IPE, those Power will be more expensive, and rightly so. If you just want to differentiate between magic and psionics, but have the costs come out to about the same, you can simply choose a set of Modifiers to define each, or make requirements that each SFX must abide by.

 

One thing I've done in previous games is define magic as using "external" energy. Spells had to draw off an END Reserve, and all must cost END. Psionics used "internal" energy, and could be bought to 0 END or use the character's normal END. I also limited the types of Powers that could be chosen for each SFX (Mental Powers were almost always Psionic, for example). I also detailed what visiblity aspects of each would require (no Psionic "light effects"). Magic ended up being much more versitile and varied, but Psionics was a bit more powerful and sometimes cheaper, but tended to tire out characters quickly if used too often.

 

 

I appreciate your input,

I guess I am looking for a shortcut to something that there really isn't one for.

 

I want to avoid getting too specific in local 'flavor' of magic or psionics since this game is intentionally a multi-dimension hopping universe. the characters are mostly recruited for the 'universal' nature of their abilities, that is, they should be able to use their 'talents' in most places, a full super would probably not. Kind of the same logic used to explain Flash's power loss on Marvel Earth in the recent 'Justice League/Avengers' team-up book. Also a theme hit on in the Amber novels of Roger Zelazny.

 

I just don't know how granular I want to get on the parameters that I do enforce since I want to celebrate everyone's differences while keeping the game fun and playable. I want the feel to be similar in some ways to a wild D&D game with all the positives that the HERO rules bring to the table.

[Vorsch]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

Any game where the party turn up in a non magic universe will seriously annoy the magician of the group, same goes for other arche types.

 

I would also seperate any connection between magic and psionics, rolemaster made them almost identical and that sucked bigtime.

 

Traditionaly psionics are 0 end 1/2 dcv concentrate type powers that are intrinsic to the character like str. Magic on the other hand is the application of esoteric occult knowledge that any one can learn, usually based of the str of the characters "spirit" , magic should be more powerful and more versatile but limited by spell components and possible mana levels if the sorcerer relys on dimentional energ rather than personal energy.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

I want to avoid getting too specific in local 'flavor' of magic or psionics since this game is intentionally a multi-dimension hopping universe. the characters are mostly recruited for the 'universal' nature of their abilities, that is, they should be able to use their 'talents' in most places, a full super would probably not. Kind of the same logic used to explain Flash's power loss on Marvel Earth in the recent 'Justice League/Avengers' team-up book. Also a theme hit on in the Amber novels of Roger Zelazny.

 

I just don't know how granular I want to get on the parameters that I do enforce since I want to celebrate everyone's differences while keeping the game fun and playable. I want the feel to be similar in some ways to a wild D&D game with all the positives that the HERO rules bring to the table.

In my opinion, that's just SFX at work. SFX cost nothing, but can have a great impact on the game, and the game can have a great impact on them. Just make sure you know what Powers are Magic, which are Psionic, and which are Something Else and plan your scenarios accordingly. The sudden loss/reduction of Power might affect some characters more than others, and the adventure that occurs in should leave plenty of opportunities for those characters to still accomplish stuff in. I don't see this so much as a path built upon character points, but upon the GM's adventure plots.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Psionics + Invisible PE in a multi-genre game?

 

Any game where the party turn up in a non magic universe will seriously annoy the magician of the group' date=' same goes for other arche types.[/quote']

I fully intend to use the risk of that happening as a story telling asset. It gives me access to a very easy mechanic to eventually give every character type 'their day in the sun'. Some worlds will have local physics that keep gunpowder and other high tech from working, others may instead enhance or remove limitations from mage and/or psi types instead of limiting them. The possibilities are endless. They may visit a 'Supers' world or a 'High Sorcery' world where the characters get a boost in power but the locals will still outclass them.

 

I don't like the personal energy vs. external energy argument since it goes against my personal definition of what fits in the Psionic category (Please let me know if this is similar to that of Rolemaster).

 

My personal definition of Psionic vs. Mage:

• Anyone can learn to be a Mage, some may have better aptitude than others but not just anyone can learn to use Psionics without some type of outside alteration to their brain chemistry or such.
   
  
• A Jedi is not a Mage. 'Episode I', like it or hate it, defines Force powers as something you are born with the aptitude to learn and control.
   
  
• This is very similar to mutants like 'Scarlet Witch' who just happens to be a good example of a 'tweener'. She has learned spell craft that enhances her mutant powers but it is not dependent on her mutant abilities to cast a spell like a normal human such as the skilled 'Dr. Stange', it would just take longer without her 'Hex' powers.
  
• Also, a Mage still has to use 'personal' energies to gather and manipulate the external energies that he directs via his spells, he just has to plan ahead more than the Psionic/savant who just happens to have a talent for one particalur aspect of energy manipulation of some sort.
  

I have used the term 'Psionic' rather than 'Mutant' up till this point in the discussion to point out that I do not want bricks like 'Colosus' or 'speedsters' like Quicksilver (Mutant? yes, Psionic? no to both) as PLAYERS in the game since each would seriously outclass the other varieties of characters present with either Extremely high defenses or high movement and speed.

 

I would not be suprised if anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of my players are players decide on talented normals instead of the mage or psi options. Normals are the bread and butter types of this multi-universe. The exotics are the exception, not the rule. Super-exotics exist as they should in any setting but I don't want to referee 'those' uber-characters.