Longest Running Thread EVER

[Bazza]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

This sounds a great deal like Plato's Republic made modern.

Glad you liked it.

 

I tried reading Plato's Republic about 20 years ago while in senior school -- Year 11 or Year 12 -- I forget which. I do remember it being over my head.

 

I do find it interesting* that you see a connection with it to Plato and see it as a modern incarnation/form.

 

*over the weekend I was reading a chapter of a book written by Rudolf Steiner talking about Platoism as a form of the Greek Mysteries; as a mystical doctrine; and in a sense as a religion too. Over the last 48 hours I have found a book or two interpreting Plato/Platoism as a form of The Tradition aka Perennial Philosophy or Eternal Wisdom.

[Bazza]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Interesting... I had written politics initially' date=' but changed it to "history and Constitution" because I think politics have moved so far away from what government is supposed to be that studying it is more likely to confuse and corrupt than help.[/quote']

 

You were thinking politics too? Great minds on the same noetic frequency?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Education really is an initiation. You start of with baby steps and gradually "level up" so to speak.

 

Sounds like they should turn it into an MMO.

[RPMiller]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Glad you liked it.

 

I tried reading Plato's Republic about 20 years ago while in senior school -- Year 11 or Year 12 -- I forget which. I do remember it being over my head.

 

I do find it interesting* that you see a connection with it to Plato and see it as a modern incarnation/form.

 

*over the weekend I was reading a chapter of a book written by Rudolf Steiner talking about Platoism as a form of the Greek Mysteries; as a mystical doctrine; and in a sense as a religion too. Over the last 48 hours I have found a book or two interpreting Plato/Platoism as a form of The Tradition aka Perennial Philosophy or Eternal Wisdom.

 

I actually came to really love Philosophy as a whole. As I mentioned, I had to take Philosophy as part of the degree program, and ended up taking two courses in it. Socrates was essentially the father of Western thought, so naturally we studied quite a bit of the early Greek philosophers with a huge emphasis on Plato's Republic. Establishing the strong philosophical base if you will.

[RPMiller]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Sounds like they should turn it into an MMO.

 

This isn't as crazy as you may think. In Oregon and just recently in California, a company (http://www.k12.com/) has begun advertising online schooling for grades K-12. The virtual classroom is quickly becoming a big deal, and as I am familiar with several teachers around the country that have used role playing in the classroom with great success there could easily be a marriage of the two. Thus we could easily find an MMO school pop up. You create a virtual avatar that walks around a virtual campus attending classes in real time...

 

I think we just came up with a competing product for http://www.k12.com/!!

[Cancer]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

As long as the exams had an internal randomizer so that full-length walkthroughs aren't trivially available like for every other videogame, there's some merit to that idea.

[RPMiller]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

It would all be real time, just like in the classroom. I actually did a project for the program I'm currently in that is very similar to k12.com's program. I discovered, in fact, when I was researching the plausibility of my project. The focus of my project was to bolster the public school system's lost funding due to absenteeism caused by students unable to attend class for medical reasons.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

... I'm out of it for a little while, and you guys get all serious!

[Cancer]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

It has been interesting this morning listening to the English instructor a couple of cubes down discuss her criticisms of students' expository essays with the students involved.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Was there headslapping?

[Cancer]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Didn't hear any.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

... Rats.

[Cancer]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Well, they're still ongoing, so there's hope yet.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Here's to hope!

[Cancer]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

So, is "carpal tunnel syndrome" the state of mind you fall into when you are in a tunnel being continuously inundated with carp?

[RPMiller]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

No, it's a feeling of needing to ride through tunnels with friends.

[Cancer]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

OK, that explains why I don't have it. Not many tunnels around here.

[RPMiller]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

There are a fair number of tunnels in my area, not a lot mind you, but a few. I've never had the need myself, but then I prefer the company of the trolls.

[Cancer]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Our troll lives under a bridge.

[Bazza]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Sounds like they should turn it into an MMO.

This isn't as crazy as you may think. In Oregon and just recently in California, a company (http://www.k12.com/) has begun advertising online schooling for grades K-12. The virtual classroom is quickly becoming a big deal, and as I am familiar with several teachers around the country that have used role playing in the classroom with great success there could easily be a marriage of the two. Thus we could easily find an MMO school pop up. You create a virtual avatar that walks around a virtual campus attending classes in real time...

 

I think we just came up with a competing product for http://www.k12.com/!!

It actually is a good idea (the MMO). Just need a good name like EDUCrack. And then convince MMO players to spend hours/days to play it.

 

The spell-books can be in Latin, that way they learn a new language.

 

After all how many gamers had picked up life-skills playing pen-n-paper RPGs? why can't it work with an education MMO?

 

There are a fair number of tunnels in my area' date=' not a lot mind you, but a few. I've never had the need myself, but then I prefer the company of the trolls.[/quote']

Even better -- The Steam Tunnels (for EDUCrack) just became viable.

[Bazza]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Our troll lives under a bridge.

 

Atlas? Holding the bridge up with his head.

[Bazza]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

I actually came to really love Philosophy as a whole. As I mentioned' date=' I had to take Philosophy as part of the degree program, and ended up taking two courses in it. Socrates was essentially the father of Western thought, so naturally we studied quite a bit of the early Greek philosophers with a huge emphasis on Plato's Republic. Establishing the strong philosophical base if you will. [/quote']

 

Not sure if I mentioned that I've been enjoying the Presocratics, so I had a giggle at the part you wrote: "Socrates was essentially the father of Western thought" as it reminded me of this:

 

"The development of western philosophy was once said by A.N. Whitehead to have consisted in a series of footnotes to Plato. In a similar vein, and with hardly more exaggeration, Plato's own writings might be said to have consisted in footnotes to Parmenides of Elea.'

David Gallop - Parmenides of Elea, p. 3 (link) (actual page/book here)

 

Below are scholarly webpages about some of by favourite Presocratics. Hope you enjoy, I'm sure you will. I'm also amazed (to a degree) how relevant their thinking is to our modern era. Melissus (follow of Parmenides) explained that the Universe has infinite space, and one of the others said that space was not empty. Both match what I know of cutting edge physics, and they thought of this roughly 2500 years ago. Another example I thought of, the concept of: Anaxagoras came up with an idea of the Universal Mind which is similar to Panpsychism.

 

Heraclitus

http://www.iep.utm.edu/heraclit/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heraclitus/

 

Parmenides

http://www.iep.utm.edu/parmenid/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/parmenides/

 

Anaxagoras

http://www.iep.utm.edu/anaxagor/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/anaxagoras/

 

Empedocles

http://www.iep.utm.edu/empedocl/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/empedocles/

 

Pre Socractics - General

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/presocratics/

http://www.iep.utm.edu/greekphi/

[RPMiller]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Cool! Thanks! We talked briefly about the Presocratics, and why Socrates is given the credit for the Western thought. That said, we never delved deeply into any of the Presocratics, so I'm definitely going to give those links a read. The one thing that always made me chuckle was how no one knew for sure where Socrates ended and Plato began thanks mostly to Socrates never writing anything down. My first philosophy professor liked to note that it was highly possible that everything we know about Socrates was simply fanboy excitement.

[Bazza]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

Cool! Thanks! We talked briefly about the Presocratics' date=' and why Socrates is given the credit for the Western thought. That said, we never delved deeply into any of the Presocratics, so I'm definitely going to give those links a read. The one thing that always made me chuckle was how no one knew for sure where Socrates ended and Plato began thanks mostly to Socrates never writing anything down. My first philosophy professor liked to note that it was highly possible that everything we know about Socrates was simply fanboy excitement. [/quote']

 

I'm of the opinion that Plato's Socrates in his dialogues is written in a deliberately mythic manner. Thus trying to use them for accurate history is like trying to do the same with Shakespeare's plays, and to a lesser perspective Hollywood 'based on a true story' films.

 

I reckon Plato's dialogues as well being of academic topics were written with allegory in mind. Thus the character of Socrates in analogous to Hiram Abiff in Masonry and other religious-mythic figures. Socrates is acting to guide the reader to the path of righteousness, or virtuous human behaviour. He is in effect a Mary-Sue character.

 

Socrates as Mary Sue

We know that a Mary Sue is an author fantasy character written in their works, but Plato's Socrates is the readers' Mary Sue. That is, if Bazza is reading it, it becomes Bazza's Mary Sue; if RPMiller is reading it, Socrates becomes RPMiller's Mary Sue. However, also, this Mary Sue is written to help guide the reader so they can become like Socrates-as-Mary Sue in their own lives -- a reverse Mary Sue concept if you like. Thus the character of Socrates helps guide the reader through a dialogue approach to they may become like Socrates-as-Mary Sue. This dialog approach being similar or the process used within the Greek Mysteries.

 

Thus to me Plato's Socratic Dialogues are similar in nature to a self-help/personal development book, but with much more depth and dimension to them. Rather than providing 'all the answers' Socrates leads the reader through a questioning approach to that they might discover their own answers to the questions being raised. And going back to my earlier point I'd echo it here:

 

This to me is the essence of teaching. If the student doesn't grasp what is being taught then the educator has failed in teaching the student. In a very real way the student has to own the material and make it theirs for them to successfully taught. Once that happens the lesson is learned.

 

This reverse-Mary Sue-as-myth is my opinion on how Shakespeare's Plays should be interpreted as well the Synoptic Gospels. I'm not quite yet decided if King Arthur should be interpreted as such.

 

~~~

More links involving PreSocratic philosophy, from Scribd

Parmenides Poem

Parmenides

Heraclitus The Complete Fragments

Essay on Heraclitus’ Logos

 

Scribd is a document-sharing social network and describes itself as "the largest social publishing and reading site in the world". To download a document you'll have to register and upload a document, I suggest a small one.

 

~~~

Cracked's 7 Books We Lost to History That Would Have Changed the World. I particularly like #4 & #3.

 

#3 Hermocrates, by Plato

What is it:

The rumored third book to Plato's little unified field theory trilogy. The first two were Timaeus and Critias and are basically transcriptions of one of the greatest, most influential thinkers to ever live discussing how the universe, uh, happened.

 

If Hemocrates was anything like the first two books in the series, it would have dealt with some brilliant, advanced concepts (like molecules and the Golden Ratio), and would have influenced thinkers and scientists for years to come. Slightly more important and infinitely more badass, Timaeus-Critias also serve as the seminal source for the theory of Atlantis.

 

Since the second book ends rather abruptly (mid-sentence), it's only logical that the third dialogue would have covered the fate of Atlantis, along with the influence it would have had on thought that mattered in non-fictional universes.

 

The Oration on the Dignity of Man (De hominis dignitate) is a famous public discourse pronounced in 1486 by Pico della Mirandola, a philosopher of the Renaissance. It has been called the "Manifesto of the Renaissance" and a key text of Renaissance humanism. (wikipedia - Oration on the Dignity of Man)

 

In the "De hominis dignitate" (Oration on the Dignity of Man, 1486), Pico justified the importance of the human quest for knowledge within a Neoplatonic framework.

 

The Oration also served as an introduction to Pico's 900 theses, which he believed to provide a complete and sufficient basis for the discovery of all knowledge, and hence a model for mankind's ascent of the chain of being. The 900 Theses are a good example of humanist syncretism, because Pico combined Platonism, Neoplatonism, Aristotelianism, Hermeticism and Kabbalah. They also included 72 theses describing what Pico believed to be a complete system of physics. (wikipedia - Pico della Mirandola)

 

So just think for a moment what the Renaissance would have been like if it had Plato's complete myth of Atlantis and a complete scientific unified field theory. THe birth of science would have been completely different. Mindblowing.

[Bazza]

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

 

I can very easy see a "Da Vinci Code" style book written about Plato's fabled Hermocrates.

 

 

Anyway it would make a good adventure for a pulp RPG.