Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

[Hyper-Man]

I was curious if any HERO GM's or players out there have ever been part of game in which players were asked to submit a wish list of things they wan't to be able to add with experience at the time of character creation?

 

I ask this because I have seen too many assumptions made by both GM and player alike after a character has been approved for a game where the player then gets upset that he can't buy something for his character (increased characteristic, power, skill, you name it) that he believed was part of the character conception that the GM later ruled to be unbalancing to the game. And not all cases were 'obvious' like DC or CV limits of the campaign. More often they were disagreements over what a particular character's future developement limits should be based on his conception or schtick (as some here on the board have called it).

 

Has anyone else (as a player OR gm) ran into this problem before and/or seen a formal sytem used at character creation like this?

 

As always, thoughts and opinions are welcome.

[caris]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

No, I've not actually seen such a system, but I kind of like the idea for an experienced group/player. I've run into this problem where the GM has a niche that he percieves my character as being in, and I have a different perception, which leads to the kind of conflict you are talking about. On the other hand, I'm running a game right now where only one player and I have any clue about Hero system. None of the players really understand the possiblities enough to come up with ideas.

 

One of the ways, I try to deal with this possibility has to been build the character with some form of all the powers and skills that I want them to ever have just at lower levels, weaker, or with more limitations, and use experience to improve what is already on the character sheet. That and if there are things that I think might be touchy for the character later on, I try to mention them to the GM during approval. Just simple things like, "yeah, I'm thinking about buying him some more Dex with his first couple experience awards." Neither are the same thing as what you are talking about, of course. I kind of like the idea, and will try to remember to do it more in my GMing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

One of the ways' date=' I try to deal with this possibility has to been build the character with some form of all the powers and skills that I want them to ever have just at lower levels, weaker, or with more limitations, and use experience to improve what is already on the character sheet.[/quote']

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I have tried this approach too. I think that how well it works depends greatly on how much 'steady' experience a GM plans on giving. I have also seen players purposely build lopsided characters with the intention of filling in the gaps later. It has been my experience that If a GM rarely gives out XP OR instead gives out lots of XP but tends to restrict advancement to the scope of the character you already started with it eventually leads to a unsatisfying gaming experience one or more players involved in that game.

 

With such a good system for mapping out a character's abilities right now, HERO does tend to leave XP advancement up in the air too much for the tastes of some gamers. By no means am I saying that a completely structured and mapped out system such as those used by D20/D&D for XP is necessarily better, just more structured from the outset which some players and GM's need from time to time. I am going to discuss this with an old friend of mine who is about to start a new Champions game as well as include the idea as part of a new multi-genre heroic game I plan on starting soon.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

One of the ways' date=' I try to deal with this possibility has to been build the character with some form of all the powers and skills that I want them to ever have just at lower levels, weaker, or with more limitations, and use experience to improve what is already on the character sheet. That and if there are things that I think might be touchy for the character later on, I try to mention them to the GM during approval. Just simple things like, "yeah, I'm thinking about buying him some more Dex with his first couple experience awards." Neither are the same thing as what you are talking about, of course. I kind of like the idea, and will try to remember to do it more in my GMing.[/quote']

 

I usually encourage my players to do this & always do it myself. Start by crafting the ideal version of the character and then trim down to the allowed point total. Everything removed becomes the wish list.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

I think that this is an example of poor communication with the GM and vice versa on the character concept, and game concept.

 

The GM should lay down the groundwork for the campaign in such a way that the first XP awards do not cause him to freak out when the PC wants another die of EB. The same goes for wanting special nifty powers like Teleport. If this ability is going to cause the GM trouble he should ensure the Players know this going in.

 

The flip side is the Players should present the GM with as good an idea of the PC as possible BEFORE the character is approved. That way evolution and development catch noone off guard. Remember power complication subplots are some of the most fun on both sides of the screen to portray. If the GM is left clueless about how you perceive your PC in growing he is not going to be able to pull this off well.

 

So what I would suggest, instead of the put everything you want in a character and then trim him/her down to meet point total, is to design a framework of the PC you want. Then talk with the GM or write down and give to the GM how you envision the characters powers currently, in the first year, and later down the road.

 

Are you just developing your powers (Starman)?

 

Are you going to refine and improve (The Batman)?

 

This will let you avoid those pesky problems and ensure that your PC will remain a vital part of the GMs game.

 

Hawkmoor

[Vanguard00]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

I was curious if any HERO GM's or players out there have ever been part of game in which players were asked to submit a wish list of things they wan't to be able to add with experience at the time of character creation?

 

 

I've not seen or used a "formal" system, but there are times when I've asked characters for a generic "wish list" of things they want to spend experience on in advance. It doesn't have to be absolute but sometimes I like advance notice if they're going to buy off a disad or buy a new power. Revising or upgrading existing powers isn't a problem for me (usually), but if they're going to purchase new skills I require them to RP the learning of those skills. Same goes for increasing existing skills.

 

But that doesn't usually require a "wish list". I think it's cool to have an idea of where the character wants to go, but I don't use the "wish list" as an etched-in-stone guide.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

I think it depends on how you want the character to grow.

 

If I come up with a concept that either doesn't fit inside the point total or that has a defined growth path I will come up with a list, in an order, that I'd like the powers to accumulate for the GM to work scenarios into the game to allow for that.

 

Sometimes I come up with a character concept that is open ended, leaving any direction for growth and just go with it. In this case I have no list of anything I want the character have and simply add bits on that might be logically accumulate through gameplay.

 

Then there's the hybrid type where I don't really care where they go but sometimes something comes up in gameplay that causes me to think about a proggression to a goal of final powers in which case I make the list and work with the GM to get those powers on the character through gameplay.

 

It all depends, only about half the time do I have a list of powers that I'd like a character to grow into. A list is always a good idea, but I wouldn't make it a requirement or part of the creation process unless the player wanted it.

[Magmarock]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

I have had people in my group who build PCs as the "finished product". We once ran an entire campaign where there were very little XPs handed out for this very reason. But the reality is when playing any RPG, most players want to improve their PC's abilities.

 

So, my question is why play that type of game? Maybe because it is the closest representation to the comic books of the earlier superheroes we've read about and grown to love. So it is not about constantly upping the power level, it's all about roleplaying the game with what you already have. I'm not sure when it started, but at some point the comic books heroes began to evolve and their powers grew and/or changed in the storylines, and this is my preferred method of playing.

 

Anyway, playing a campaign where the heroes never change is a challange for me. I'm with the old-school, roleplaying bunch who require XPs and the abillity to change and grow. Sometimes, and I'll freely admit this, the few points we gain are never really enough. I always push for more. And as GM, I tend to award more, but that's just me. Heh, we have other GMs in our group who compensate my generosity by awarding too little XPs. Or am I compensating? Hmmm. Aw well.

 

As for the wishlist... I don't ask what the players intend for thier PCs. And noone asks me about mine. I expect them to be adult and reasonable in spending there XPs. If someone presents a power that I think is overpowering or will unbalance the game, I tell them. And I expect they'll fix it with minimal bitching. Right now, we have a situation where all the players are GMs (we take turns) so all PCs have to pass inspection by everyone. How's that for pressure?

 

 

Mags

[pinecone]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

As a player I usually list what my first 25 to 50 Exp is slated for...it helps avoid" EP mutation" I often recomend it to players when I GM, but for the most part I don't sweat it. Everyone builds and plays chars a little differantly.....

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

I don't really ask for a formal list, per se.... I do ask my players what they plan to do with their characters.

 

So far I have gathered this information:

 

Player A wants his character to extend the power of his self-contained dimensional pocket into teleportation and desolid. This fits his concept, so I will let him do this gradually.

 

Player B wants his demonic heratige to become steadily more apparent, causing him to eventually sprout wings and gain all kinds of wacky hellfire things. This I will allow.

 

Player C, a robot, wants to gradually integrate gadgets from fallen enemies into his structure. This I will also allow, to a certain extent. I'll prolly make him make it a multipower, though, because the last thing I need is him gradually buying a bunch of overlapping forcefields. Although I might let him get away with something else as long as he doesn't abuse it.

 

I think it's handy to know what players are planning, personally.

[zornwil]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

My players do tend to show up with "interesting" new developments that I didn't necessarily expect, though they're pretty mature and for the most part it's okay, sometimes a little pruning is necessary. However, before that, they're pretty good about communicating their general intentions well in advance and I try to give guidance. Also, I'll make suggestions. It's a tad difficult as I do allow for rather potentially-abusive constructs so long as they're innovative or interesting or otherwise simply worth seeing happen, but given that it opens a lot of doors. Those players who tinker, we tend to go back and forth in e-mail a lot. For example, I actually forwarded to Chromatic the "invisibility-through-anonymity" idea and so he knew I found it generally acceptable. When he showed up with the power we hadn't gone over it before the session so we had like a 5-minute discussion and that was it - the only thing I didn't like and asked him to change wa sthe mental invisibility, I didn't prefer it for the concept and the campaign - particularly as he has a lot of MD. He was cool and on we went. Quick and easy.

 

Then again, Lemming tends to hold his PC close to his vest, it seems, though not in any way that's an issue, just his style. The thing is, though, Lemming seems to have a really great grasp of what's abusive and what's not and I've yet to see him carry ANYTHING into the game that I've had to really tweak, I think, unlike most. However, he also tends to run over the points totals allotted. Given that he fits it all within the context well, I don't really look too closely at his sheet - he's the classic example of someone who roleplays and uses the sheet as a guideline, not doing things just because he can. That's what makes him a good GM in his points-less games.

 

Anyway, the point is that I think the best way is to do a lot of hammering out very early on and for everyone to spend time in that early stage airing their prejudices and desires. That's what we did early on and so the above paragraph's discussion all was predicated on that good start.

 

The original suggestion of this thread is a good one, just adding general comments. I will add one more as well - so much depends on the player interests and maturity. For example, Lamrok (I hope the players don't mind me discussing them by name but I feel comfortalbe enough, I think they do) tends to design extremely efficient characters and likes to push the boundaries, partly in order to find the boundaries. I would never call him a munchkin (explanation to follow on that), but he builds characters that could be called munchkiny - as can/occassionally does Chromatic. However, with Chromatic I kind of knew that from the outset, whereas with Lamrok I didn't actually get it. So on paper and even in some game mechanics Lamrok's intial character, the Troll, was lopsided in some respects. But y'know - it didn't matter. Though in some part I'd like to think I GMed it well as I realized it, the major thing was that he was never willing to play in a munchkiny way, he simply wanted to have the abilities to fit the concept and if/when needed. He understood the campaign and the genre and respected it all. Chromatic the same, even though his and my initial discussions on his multiform character were probably so in-depth as to concept that it was a slam-dunk going into the campaign that it was a good fit. Hmmm, I surely hope they don't mind that I described their characters as "could be called munchkiny", I don't wish to overstate that - if one wishes, please substitute "extremely efficient." Anyway, the point here is that an awful lot of the approach depends on the players. I could never have afforded a somewhat cavalier approach with players who just want to "win" the game, no matter to RPing. I had played and talked some with these guys before GMing so I already knew my job would be easy, as mature, excellent roleplayers make it fun no matter. So that plays a MAJOR role in the communication path and just how anal to get.

 

If any of my players have any issues with anything I wrote I'll gladly edit. They are swell guys and I would be loathe to leave any impression otherwise.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

 

I'm inclined - in the next game that I GM - to institute a zero power growth game where experience will instead be spent in contacts, reputation and knowledge skills.

 

I'm going to try and base it on the Golden Heroes system but I want to encourage my heroes to become part of whatever community they hold most sacrosanct.

 

I will give them more points to begin with and I will allow radical re-writes as part of 'radiation accidents' and any power advancement might come in a step-wise fashion if I decide to move their opponents to a new level then I will facilitate a mass radiation accident where they will all be able to grow in power to meet the new campaign limits.

 

I think it would be interesting as it would direct the growth more to integrating themselves into the social fabric of teh campaign rather than trying to beat things into submission.

 

 

Doc