Varying Character Levels

[mlud]

As a brand new newbie to the Hero System, I've been spending a lot of time reading through the 5th ed. rules and Champions, but I'm unclear as to this point: when you set up a game, is there just one point level for all characters or can characters of varying power levels have a different number of points assigned to them when they're built?

 

In other words, if you wanted to play a character like Superman going up against someone like the Joker, would both of them be restricted to the same point cap (e.g., 300 pts), or would Superman be allowed to be built with more points to reflect the incredible difference between he and the Joker?

 

I wasn't sure how you let characters be somewhat true to their known power levels if every character has to be built with the same number of points.

 

mlud

[Monolith]

The general theme is that every beginning-level hero should start with the same point totals (200 base +150 Disadvantages). This is done to maintain game balance between the players. Now of course not all 350 point characters are equal, but there are reasons there are Active Point, Speed, and Defense caps built into the game. In a 350 point cap game the Superman clone might have an 70 STR (the max DC the "standard superhero" can have) but he is not too out of line against the 60 STR Martian Manhunter clone or the Batman clone who does 11d6 Offensive Strikes.

 

Unless you have extraordinary players, the guy playing Superman is going to have many more actions and be far more effective in combat than the guy playing Blue Beetle, and thus the guy playing Blue Beetle is going to get upset. There is also the issue of threat balance. Someone who can injure a 50 DEF Superman is going to splatter a 10 DEF Blue Beetle. This causes problems for all the players not playing characters at that power level.

 

These types of character power disparities work in comic books because the writer controls all the actions. In games the weaker characters can start resenting the more powerful characters, and finding a villain who can be a threat to both power levels becomes a GM's nightmare.

 

The villains do not have to follow the total point restrictions. Villains should be however powerful the GM needs them to be to work for his encounter.

[Jhamin]

Point levels should vary widely in almost every game world. Superman is built on vastly more points than most anyone else in his world. (But don't be decieved by the Joker's low physical strength. He regularly goes up against Batman and has to pay for all those gadgets and henchmen.)

 

In general you want to keep the Player Characters all on about the same power level. It just works better. In the comics Thor and Mockingbird can be on the same team together but it almost never works as well when you have a player stuck being woefully underpowered compared to his buddies.

 

The players enemies can vary widely. A bunch of villians that are about as tough as they are should be build on about the same number of points, while the Shredder to your Players' Ninja Turtles should have alot more.

 

Whether the PC have fewer, more, or about the same number of points as the "average" superperson in your game world is really a campaing choice.

[Dust Raven]

Villains don't have point costs. They get everything for free.

 

Now, if you want a tool for balancing, it's good to write up the important ones, and maybe have the stats of a standard agent or thug handy.

 

Specifically about the Superman vs Joker thing, all you need to do is remember that the Joker doesn't fight fair, and has LOTS of toys. If he's using the toys he would use against Batman, Superman will walk all over him. If he could prepare a bit against Superman, he could easily find something that could at least challenge him, if not actually be made of kryptonite.

[mlud]

Thanks for the quick reply. I understand the need for balance and thus to keep hero characters at the same point cap (varying things like speed, etc.). The way I've been talking about this game to my friends is with the line "you can do anything in this game you've seen characters in the comic do." Thus, in a comic that features a team, there are members of the team who are "weaker" than other members of the team.

 

For example, there is a friend in the group who wants to play if he can play an original Avengers team. In such a recreation, you would have "weak" clones like the Wasp and Ant-man in the company of "heavyweight" clones like Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk. But your suggesting that each person on that Avengers clone team still have the same point cap, but to make them appear like they do in the comics, you would obviously vary the individual characteristics (Hulk clone has a lot more strength than Ant-man clone, but Ant-man clone has purchased more speed than Hulk clone). Right?

 

To play a team that has weak and strong characters (with the same point cap), wouldn't it also be the player's responsibility not to throw the weaker characters into the battle first, using them instead in a supporting fashion after the heavyweights on the team engage the enemy? That way the weaker characters, like a Blue Beetle clone, don't get squished; instead they provide backup for the Martian Manhunter clones?

 

mlud

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by mlud

 

For example, there is a friend in the group who wants to play if he can play an original Avengers team. In such a recreation, you would have "weak" clones like the Wasp and Ant-man in the company of "heavyweight" clones like Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk. But your suggesting that each person on that Avengers clone team still have the same point cap, but to make them appear like they do in the comics, you would obviously vary the individual characteristics (Hulk clone has a lot more strength than Ant-man clone, but Ant-man clone has purchased more speed than Hulk clone). Right?

 

That sounds right.

 

 

To play a team that has weak and strong characters (with the same point cap), wouldn't it also be the player's responsibility not to throw the weaker characters into the battle first, using them instead in a supporting fashion after the heavyweights on the team engage the enemy? That way the weaker characters, like a Blue Beetle clone, don't get squished; instead they provide backup for the Martian Manhunter clones?

 

mlud

 

This always sounds good on paper but in practice rarely works out:(

[Dust Raven]

I agree. Vastly differeing power levels between characters rarely works out. It's like playing D&D or Palladium with one or two 1st or 2nd levels characters in a group full of 6-8 level characters (or vice versa). About the only thing the weaker characters can do is role-play, and occasionally use a spiffy skill or two that only they have. They simply won't be much of any use in combat.

 

Now, if you are running a game that's light on combat and heavy on role-play....this all wouldn't make much difference.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

I agree. Vastly differeing power levels between characters rarely works out. It's like playing D&D or Palladium with one or two 1st or 2nd levels characters in a group full of 6-8 level characters (or vice versa). About the only thing the weaker characters can do is role-play, and occasionally use a spiffy skill or two that only they have. They simply won't be much of any use in combat.

 

Now, if you are running a game that's light on combat and heavy on role-play....this all wouldn't make much difference.

 

It really depends on the game style. I run and played in games where the point totals varied by plus or minus 600 points. Though to run a game like that where there are several power levels, it helps to have multiple characters.

In one game, we had three different characters. During the roleplaying we would figure out which character went where and sometimes we would have one low powered character along with everyone elses high powered character.

 

IMO, it captured the feel of the JSA, Avengers, and Legion comics.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by mlud

Thanks for the quick reply. I understand the need for balance and thus to keep hero characters at the same point cap (varying things like speed, etc.). The way I've been talking about this game to my friends is with the line "you can do anything in this game you've seen characters in the comic do." Thus, in a comic that features a team, there are members of the team who are "weaker" than other members of the team.

You can do that in the game without any real complications. The only issue is the players themselves.

 

There are certain comic book characters that I really like. Nightcrawler is a good example. But when you play Nightcrawler in the game you are dealing with a character doing 6-7d6 in almost all cases. That is very different than the character playing Colossus doing 14d6. The player who is going to play Nightcrawler has to be content with the notion that he cannot allow himself to be hit and will never do great damage.

 

Colossus never worries about getting hit, gets to attack 4 phases per turn, and does lots of damage. That is a very different experience for the player playing Colossus over the player playing Nightcrawler, who needs to dodge 4+ of his 6 Phases and only does enough damage to hurt agents or weaker supers.

 

If your player can deal with that then the power levels do not matter. But I have yet to find a player willing to be 50% as effective for more than a few sessions in the campaign though. They always switch characters.

 

To play a team that has weak and strong characters (with the same point cap), wouldn't it also be the player's responsibility not to throw the weaker characters into the battle first, using them instead in a supporting fashion after the heavyweights on the team engage the enemy? That way the weaker characters, like a Blue Beetle clone, don't get squished; instead they provide backup for the Martian Manhunter clones?

In theory that is the way it should go, but in the actual game most players do not want to stand around watching the "heavies" battle while they act as back-up. All the players want to be fighting in their phases too. As I said above, it takes a particular type of player who is willing to allow his fellow players to handle most of all of the combat.

[Uncle Shecky]

Originally posted by mlud

To play a team that has weak and strong characters (with the same point cap), wouldn't it also be the player's responsibility not to throw the weaker characters into the battle first, using them instead in a supporting fashion after the heavyweights on the team engage the enemy? That way the weaker characters, like a Blue Beetle clone, don't get squished; instead they provide backup for the Martian Manhunter clones?

 

I have seen this work in games where the players were allowed to play multiple characters. I GM'd a brief West Coast Avengers campaign many years ago for 2 players. 1 guy got Iron Man and Hawkeye, the other used Iron Man, Tigra, and Mockingbird. I don't remember the point levels, but Wondy and Shellhead were several hundred points more than Mockingbird.

 

It worked because both players had heavy-hitter characters and support characters, and because they usually fought single villains with a wide variety of attacks (like Graviton and Super Adaptoid).

 

Also, we all tried to stay true to the spirit of the comics. When they fought the Masters of Evil, I didn't send the Wrecker after Mockingbird, and Wonder Man didn't try to take out the Beetle. They paired up like they would in the comics.

 

Just because a hero or villain has a 5d6 AP RKA, doesn't mean he must use it on every opponent, especially if it doesn't suit the genre you're trying to play. Good players and GMs will know that.

[SuperPheemy]

Posted by: mlud

As a brand new newbie to the Hero System, I've been spending a lot of time reading through the 5th ed. rules and Champions, but I'm unclear as to this point: when you set up a game, is there just one point level for all characters or can characters of varying power levels have a different number of points assigned to them when they're built?

 

As you can see from the growing thread, there are a LOT of right answers. It's because Hero is flexible that way, but that very flexibility can be intimidating to someone just cracking open the book for the first time.

 

My suggestion is to start your players with equal numbers of points. That way everyone has the ability to be just as special as everyone else. If your players want to create "Superman", or "Batman" then don't worry so much about crunching the points to make the "real" characters, instead keep the character concept simple. For example, if I wanted to make the Flash, I'd focus mainly on powers and abilities that mimic superspeed. I would NOT worry about ensuring that my character would be able to reach velocities as published in Flash comics issue #XXX. So long as the character was superfast, and had a couple of the classic "Flash Bits" (like the tried and true Autofire Punch, or the "vibrate through walls) he should be fun to play.

 

Your villains are a different matter entirely. It takes plain old experience to learn the balance between "tough villain", "pushover", and "wipe the floor with the PCs". I'd start with matching the player characters with a villain team of equal numbers and equal points. Either pull them from already published material, or make your own. Once you've run a couple of adventures, you'll start to get the hang of how the system works, and will begin to learn how to challenge your players in new and interesting ways.

 

I want to stress here that you DO NOT want to create villains "better" or "more efficient" than your player's characters. This is not a competition, all you're looking for is a challenge for your players, and the simplest way to manage that in the early stages is to keep the point totals similar.

 

Anyway, keep your eye on these boards. They're your best resource to learn from experienced Champs Gurus. Join discussions, ask questions. And don't ask who would win a fight between The Hulk and Doomsday. Trust me on this.

[mlud]

Thanks for all the information. I love learning about this game.

 

I think you're right Monolith--it would take a certain player who would be content to have his weaker character "stand around" while the heavy weights are going at it. I know I wouldn't want to be the one stuck with the weak, supporting character.

 

For some people who want to stay true to the comic, I think Uncle Shecky has a possible solution: have one person play multiple characters: that way, his heavyweight can wade in while his supporting player stands around, dodges, and prepares to deliver his one speciality attack.

 

I'll also take the advice of SuperPheemy--keep it simple in the beginning until my friends and I learn the ropes.

 

Thanks again everyone.

[Beetle]

Hey! Stop using Blue Beetle as the example of a really weak hero. That's what Booster Gold is for!

 

One way to keep a balance between characters with different point totals would be to build the weaker characters with more special powers. The Wasp doesn't pack Thor's punch, but she can blind people with precise shots to the eyes, or flash their hearing with shots to the ears. Hawkeye has a wide range of trick arrows that can even the playing field. (and if the player is still frustrated, give him 200 more points and turn Hawkeye into Goliath II)

[Trebuchet]

Another approach is to have combat-light characters have lots of useful non-combat skills. Batman may not be powerful in combat compared to Superman, but if there's criminal investigation or scientific reasoning needed Superman takes a back seat. Thor may kick butt, but set him in front of a computer and any 12 year old can outperform him. As long as players get as much "face time" from the GM during a game, they can still enjoy themselves. So go skill-heavy with combat-light characters.

 

Another method (one I like) is to make certain the bad guys have lots of low-level minions for the less powerful characters to beat up on. As long as my character is laying the smackdown on somebody every phase, I'm a happy camper.

 

However, for beginning players, I recommend following Monilith's suggestion and starting with more equal characters pointwise. Once everyone has some experience with the system, you can diverge a bit more.