We're Gonna Need Guns

[Steve Long]

As usual, I see no reason not to draw on the collective knowledge of Herodom Assembled to save myself time and effort. So:

 

What sort of guns, gun technology, and ammunition would those of you who are interested in the subject like to see in the new Dark Champions?

 

What nifty and intriguing new guns are floating around out there that the book ought to include? What sorts of gun modifications and add-ons have you heard about that you think are worth mentioning? Have you heard about any new types of bullets that the book should have game stats for?

 

Let me know!

[lemming]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

It's not new, but the Calico has some interesting potential. Both the 9mm & .22 versions.

There are some other members that have real weapon knowledge.

Gun Bunnies Unite and GBU have some content, but I'm betting some of those people will be very helpful.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Here was a recent thread on a very nasty Russian-made shotgun. Note that the first link recommends a reference work for now-declassified Soviet-era weapons.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I looked at the original Dark Champions only last night. You put about 4 or so pages of guns in that book. I think you have the mundane firearms handled.

 

I'd like to see (in addition to an update of the weapons locker already in print) gadgets and trick shot maneuvers. Modular firearm examples, and cutting edge tech. Things like the Land Warrior system which accounts for GPS positioning, real-time battlefield intelligence and squad communication.

 

That and equipment for use in "Super SWAT" teams like the Metropolis SCU. Weaponry that has evolved with the element of supervillains. Guns and bullets designed to take down monsters with 20rPd, or area of effect devices for use against Speedsters.

[Blue]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I was gonna suggest stuff, but you can just assume as usual I suggested a bunch of things that you've already made. We'll leave it at that.

[Toadmaster]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Definately think some expaned discussion of using firearms in the campaign is worth while, pros and cons of more lethal / less lethal modifications to the rules, use of expanded rules etc. This is a popular discussion topic so I think it is worthy of space in the book.

 

Suppressors, sights, night vision, folding stocks and other accessories. Also their use not just a list of some, I'd like to see some thought to each as well as benefits / hiderances of them (ex high powered telescopic sights let you see clearly long distances but are hard to use up close, are fragile and give you a very narrow view)

 

I'd love to see some rules for Close Quarters Combat, something to give short fast weapons an advantage up close (speed modifiers or some such), there has to be a reason to use an MP5 instead of a Barrett when you are clearing a room. Also the dangers of overpenatration (or how not to shoot your buddy on the other side of the wall).

 

Other weapons, flame throwers, WP grenades, tear gas etc.

 

Be very careful about falling into the new tech is much better than old tech trap, the M1911A1 .45 Handgun has seen almost 100 years of use, the P90 PDW is only a few years old but already faces an uncertain future, most games don't reflect this since they make the P90 a super gun. HERO is a very narrow system when it comes to guns and it is easy to make stuff out of balance, I'd prefer to see less differance between weapons than over the top attempts to make a weapon stand out.

 

Shotguns deserve more attention, I'd like to see other than 12 gauge and some variety in ammunition, small shot, lock breakers, tear gas rounds, rubber bullets, flares etc.

 

Whoops the toadling is taking a nap, more later.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I'm going to ask for stuff at the opposite end of the spectrum -- some of the non-lethal weapons and ammunication currently available. Rubber bullets have been around for quite a long time, and "stun guns" of various sorts for nearly as long; I've also seen net-guns and a few other new innovations in actual use. Look into some of these and see what you can get.

[Metaphysician]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

There should be some coverage of "cutting edge" weapons and borderline supertech guns, though perhaps not in the corebook. Stuff for more extreme campaigns.

[Mightybec]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

The M203 grenade launcher has what's called a submunition round. Basically, it's a 40mm shotgun shell with a hell of a lot of powder. There is an account of a Marine in Somalia using one of these on a threatening person about 7 feet away from him, and the guy was absolutely obliterated.

 

Also, I posted a link to a video clip to something called either a blended metal or a liquid metal round. The energy of impact is enough to liquify the metal, thereby transfering almost all of it's energy into it's target. The lagre potroast the round hit was heavily damaged. The damaged tissue was in about a 3 inch radius from the impact.

[Toadmaster]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Not guns per se but I'd like to see more on demolitions, explosives and EOD.

 

Definately more less than lethal weapons, there are quite a few on the verge of practical use. Discovery Channel or the History Channel occasionally runs a really good show on many of the up and coming less than lethal weapons out there and on the drawing board from tasers and really stinky paintball guns to a strobe guns that make the target get disoriented.

 

While I know how squeemish many Hero gamers are about attaching game stats to real stats I hope you will include some discussion of how to compare new weapons to existing weapons in the designing weapons section. Whether you go with a hard x# of foot pounds equals y DC or just a ball park method of comparison I think it is worthy of mention in the book. I assume you have someway of making that decision I'd like to see it included even if it is just a feeling of where it goes.

 

Strangely I'm not all that interested in a big list of guns in this book (I've already got so many gun books at home) rather I'd like to see a wide selection of weapon types, maybe a dozen of each (pistols, rifles, shotguns etc) but make sure to include widely differant examples of each, single action big big bore revolver (.475 Linebaugh type), big bore double action revolver (.44 Mag), a couple of 9mm pistols, .22 back up, .22 target pistol, a silhouette pistol (bolt action rifle caliber target pistol) etc rather than 27 9mm handguns that are all pretty much the same. This will really make it easier to add in weapons later.

 

Heavy weapons too, 40mm grenade launchers, recoiless rifles, wire guided missiles, mortar or two.

 

Examples of weapons that require special rules like guided missiles and mortars.

 

Some indirect fire rules for calling in artillery would be nice too.

 

 

Basically I'm looking for examples of rule use to build unusual weapons.

[Resartus]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I think Metal Storm http://www.metalstorm.com/ weapons definitely fit the definition of "cutting-edge". I'd really like to see an official write up on them. Especially the O'Dwyer VLe Smartgun http://www.metalstorm.com/04_what_is_a_smart_gun.html, it has non-lethal and lethal rounds available via selector switch or voice activation.

 

It also be very nice to see some work on armor. This subject tends to get overlooked when guns are brought up. I'd like to see some coverage of newer aramid fibers and materials like Spectra. Spider silk will also be an option in the near future and could easily be available in a DC campaign. And of course there is this little gem about liquid armor http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,usa3_042104.00.html.

 

But advances and new stuff aside a more detailed write-up of Kevlar type soft armors would be nice. For instance the protection they provide really only works against bullets. A Kevlar vest without an insert is usless at protecting against a knife or even a baseball bat and the write-up should reflect that in a gritty campaign.

 

And what would the average vigilante be without his ride? A small addition that covered class IV and V armors that can be bought for real world vehicles would be nice. It would give GMs a guideline for armoring a Mafia Don's limo or a Brinks money transport. Class IV armors for instance should stop a perfectly square hit from a .308 at point blank, so it would be a least rPD 13 in Hero terms.

[LordGhee]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

New gun stuff? Him. . . . .

 

how about

 

The russians built a new seris of inf rifles that fire the secound round before the first left the barrel so the secound round is very accurate and the rifle barrel impulses back in a cool way.

 

Report of guided 50cal rounds (laser?).

 

The million rounds a second system. The round are in the barrel stacked one on anther so the barrel in the mag. The rounds are fired electronicly and the speed in up at million rounds a sec. The pistol has four barrel and holds 10 rds each and is the size of a 45. so those geeky multi barrel future guns in sf movies are not that far off .

 

shotguns have teargas, flame, flash bang, bean bag rounds for years

 

Safety locks do not work like every one wants yet (dna machting).

 

Camera on guns. not there yet but years to a good one (look around or over things and soon after that my lt can see what it sees.)

 

Lasers build into the gun it self.

 

Lord Ghee

[LordGhee]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Hey the laser,

 

yep they are using a laser to burn bombs in the gulf now it is mounted on a hummer and it is a big box see strageypage.com gallery. shades of the Andromeda Strain ( see the movie).

 

Lord Ghee

[Resartus]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Oops, That last post was a little more off topic that I realized at first. So I'll confine this one to a list of Ammo types I'd like to see:

 

Armor Piercing: I know this sounds obvious but I'd like to see some guidelines on how many levels of AP a real world round could have. I'm sure that a depleted uranium round would have more AP than a standard steel penetrator but how much more?

 

Semi-Armor Piercing: This category covers rounds that are better at penetrating armor than standard FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) ammo but don't really qualify as AP. These rounds usually achieve this by shape and/or high velocities.

 

Armor Piercing Saboted: Probably has more than one level of AP and definately has better range than the standard round fired from the same gun. Will probably do less damage to living targets because of it's smaller caliber.

 

Armor Piercing Explosive: Good at getting through armor and then exploding inside. Not typically available in small calibers but very nasty for a vigilanty's "Big Gun". Also tends to prevent over penetration normaly associated with large caliber rounds.

 

Hollow Point: Should get reduced penetration against armors but should do more damage to a living target because of the post entry expansion.

 

Tracers: Should provide some sort of aiming bonus while firing at the same target across multiple phases.

 

Incendiary: Will set some targets on fire and do some additional damage to living targets. Maybe just a single point of RKA with a fire special effect?

 

Frangible: Breaks up on any hard surface especially armors but will do normal damage to soft Kevlar type armors and unarmored living targets. Great for preventing a missed shot from going through a wall and hitting an innocent target on the other side.

 

Baton/Bean Bag/Rubber Shot: Grenade launcher/shotgun ammo designed to be non-lethal. Often deployed in crowd control situations.

 

 

As a general question, will most firearms in DC be written up as Multipowers to reflect their performance with different ammo types?

[Steve Long]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

As a general question, will most firearms in DC be written up as Multipowers to reflect their performance with different ammo types?

 

Nope. That's way too complicated for what most people want, and would use up way too much page space. Guns will be written up as if using standard ammunition. Then there'll be descriptions of other types of ammunition in game terms, and tables to help you (a) determine the cost of a gun if you always want to use that type of ammo, or ( want to buy a clip of that type of ammo for emergencies, and so on. Most of this is already done, in fact; I just have to check over it, update it, and so on.

[Susano]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Steve,

There's that "Future Soldier 2025" article that showed up in Digital Hero (I forget the issue). I wrote up all sorts of high-tech near-future infantry toys, including the Alliant Technosystems Selectable Assault Battle Rifle (a.k.a. SABR)/Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW). That sort of stuff would be great.

 

Also, I agree on the comment about overshooting, and/or shooting through stuff to hit the guy on the other side. Maybe you could introduce some sort of "blowthrough" rule, where you compare DCs to DEF to see if a round goes through a wall or similar object with no real loss of energy.

[ghost-angel]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I was going to suggest Metalstorm, but restartus beat me to it. So I'll second that point.

 

I'd love to see something official for MetalStorm.

[RDU Neil]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I'll second the calls for "blow through" rules and sections on armor "soft, padded, rigid" etc. That kind of stuff makes the feel of heroic level games much different than super level games. (Blowthrough actually reducing damage done to a soft target could be an option as well.)

 

Similarly, maybe a discussion of optional rules on "types of damage" like piercing, cutting, blunt, etc. Certain kinds of damage vs. certain kinds of protection... that can make a big difference... but also might be too "crunchy" for Hero.

 

Finally... my main concern is a base concern with Hero System ranged combat. Basically, that it is way too easy to hit someone. Hero is so based on supers combat of high probability to hit, high defenses, nickel and dime the enemy in a fight... that this doesn't translate well to more "realistic" gun combat. One, the range mods are ridiculous for guns. A handgun shouldn't be so accurate beyond fifty feet, unless you are braced and set. Plusses on guns (to hit) should only count if character is braced and set. Maybe some "point blank range" combat options/maneuvers/rules... that reinforce the fact that most pistol combats take place within 10 feet of eachother... not across football fields.

 

I'd love to see the old DI range mods brought back as an optional rule.

 

I'd also love some kind of rule mods that encourage "throwing a lot of lead" as in real life... rather than the standard Hero combat of counting every shot, rarely having to reload, etc. Automatic weapons are better than single shot because they not only increase the number of possible hits... but increase the chance of hitting period. This isn't reflected in Hero... for game balance reasons at the supers level, I understand... but it makes automatic weapons much less scary than they should be. Close quarters automatic gunfire should be horrendously scary, IMO. Characters should be encouraged to throw multiple shots down range (realistic fashion, or a'la John Wu, either way) for better chances to hit/more damage... etc.

 

In the end, I guess anything that can move the Hero system rules away from the "one big energy blast" concept, and more toward hails of lead, floors covered in spent shells, empty clips dropping, unloading down hallways, etc.

 

Might be too much to ask, but it's what I'd love to see.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Steve,

There's that "Future Soldier 2025" article that showed up in Digital Hero (I forget the issue). I wrote up all sorts of high-tech near-future infantry toys, including the Alliant Technosystems Selectable Assault Battle Rifle (a.k.a. SABR)/Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW). That sort of stuff would be great.

 

Also, I agree on the comment about overshooting, and/or shooting through stuff to hit the guy on the other side. Maybe you could introduce some sort of "blowthrough" rule, where you compare DCs to DEF to see if a round goes through a wall or similar object with no real loss of energy.

 

 

Digital HERO #10 and a fine artical it is.

 

Flechette Rounds - do higher damage vs unarmored or soft armored targets and no damage vs hard targets (I want something official on this one).

 

You could also reference a SR Dumpshock website called FIREARMS. Really educational for gunbunnies and wannabes.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Interesting post RDU Neil. Could you post or posit the options you use in a new thread (so as to not hijack this one any more than I'm currently doing)? I'd like to kick the tires on 'em in my campaign.

[Trebuchet]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Also' date=' I agree on the comment about overshooting, and/or shooting through stuff to hit the guy on the other side. Maybe you could introduce some sort of "blowthrough" rule, where you compare DCs to DEF to see if a round goes through a wall or similar object with no real loss of energy.[/quote']This is a question which should have been fully addressed in The Ultimate Vehicle and unfortunately was not: What happens to people in a building or vehicle which is badly damaged or destroyed by an attack?

[JohnTaber]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Hi Steve: I think otherd have covered lots of angles. My only comment is that I like the way DI handled the special rounds. They just applied modifiers to how the existing rounds worked. For example, dum-dum added +1 Stun Mod and doubled the effective armor...if my memory is right. That works neat because it can be "added" to any existing round. I even use a similar approach in my Star Hero game.

[Trencher]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

The most important thing is to illustrate the guns you write up. I also would like to see some info like this : http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/rpg/shadowrun/equipment/shadowrun_equipment_tarotfirearms.html on guns. That page and the stuff there in was like fresh air into my old shadowrun campain many years ago.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

The old Piercing rules from (?) Robot Warriors (?). Either as a stand-alone thing or an official build (DCs with the Limitation 'Only to penetrate armor' or suchlike).

[RDU Neil]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I assume everyone here has seen this book...

 

http://www.greenronin.com/cgi-bin/product.cgi?prodid=1016

 

To me... this was the single best gaming supplement around firearms I've ever seen. Clean, crisp layout... excellent art... good detail on the weapons,without gun-nut overkill detail... and best of all, some basic primer information about guns, terminology, etc., all done on two pages. This is not text heavy in any way... giving you just what you need to play... no more, no less.

 

IMO... license this book exactly as is... just replace the stats with Hero stats... leave the rest there. I'd buy the book again, just for that.