We're Gonna Need Guns

[Steve Long]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

We're not going to illustrate all the guns that are written up. We're only going to illustrate more than a tiny fraction of them. Not only is comprehensive illustration unnecessary, but we simply don't have the art budget to commission that many illustrations (or the page space to devote to that type of formatting and layout, which I think it largely wasteful and pointless). The artists don't get paid less simply because the illustrations are small, after all.

[Edsel]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

A Lot of good suggestions so far.

 

I'd like some rules on concealable weapons and the technology to combat them. Rules for detection equipment, airport security type of stuff (metal detectors, x-ray machines). Weapons that can be broken-down and disguised. Covert ops stuff.

 

It might be cool to have a bit about how characters with the proper skills can customize their own weapons or ammo. Perhaps even make their own custom weapons. I want to be the man with the golden gun (that sort of stuff).

[Metaphysician]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

We're not going to illustrate all the guns that are written up. We're only going to illustrate more than a tiny fraction of them. Not only is comprehensive illustration unnecessary' date=' but we simply don't have the art budget to commission that many illustrations (or the page space to devote to that type of formatting and layout, which I think it largely wasteful and pointless). The artists don't get paid less simply because the illustrations are small, after all. [/quote']

 

I won't complain. More money and time spent on illustrations = less money and time spent on content. Same reason why I'm opposed to full color.

[Mightybec]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Ooooo Ooooooo! I forgot one. How about a cyanide bullets like in Jaws?

 

Also, what if you had a hollowpoint bullet with a chunk of elemental potassium hidden in it's core. Once the potassuim hits the moist innards, it would react violently from the inside.

[Toadmaster]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Materials usable to make bullets from might be interesting, I understand pure Silver doesn't work so good (too hard), gold might but werewolves don't mind gold. This might be more appropriate whenever Horror gets its own book but the comments about cyanide bullets etc got me thinking.

 

As far as other kinds of bullets I think within the limits of HERO your going to be limited to expanding (soft points, hollow points, glasers), AP, frangible rounds (powdered lead that break up easily to avoid over penatration), shot, and perhaps target rounds. I agree with the other poster that I'd like to see the DI method of handling these used but please feel free to surprise me by finding a better way or ways to handle more types of bullets. Obviously shotguns have a few more varieties available.

[Steve Long]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Not to worry, o Master of Toads! I have a mighty long list of bullet and shotgun ammo types, and very good ways to handle them all (including Many Useful Reference Charts). If there's one thing this book's not gonna lack for, its types of bullets.

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

The MP-5-10.. 10mm version.

 

HK UMP in .45, 9mm, .40, iirc

 

the Gyurza pistol from Russia.

 

The various specialty guns made for underwater use, there is even an Assault rifle version from Russia, there are several pistols. All fire darts, and can be used at short range in atmosphere too.

 

The fragmentation and Shaped charge grenades for the 12 gauge. I haven't read many real world bits, but Janes apparently has a writeup, unfortunaty the neares library with "infantry weapons" is about 290 miles away.

 

some of the heavy rifles short of .50 caliber.

.375 H&H, the 9.3x64 (used in a version of the SVD), the .45-70, the .444 marlin, the .358 and .35 Whelen,

>338 Lapua, .408 Cheytac

 

Rules for pistol (magnum mostly) in carbines, Probably just add 1DC, but the .44 is over-rated then(if it is not now).

 

Aquila mini shotgun shells.

"Whisper" line of cartridges.

 

The pure "Gamer Guns"

.500 S&W.

.458 Socom

.50 Beowulf

6.5 Grendel and 6.8mm Remington (militarily useful)

MOre to come.

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

That is odd. I can think of two shotgun style rounds for the M-203. One uses about 14 shot at iirc 750fps. This is significantly less potent than even a 20 gauge, unless the shot are VERY heavy, say 000 buck, but I think they were about #4 buck.

 

There was a Very complex, quite rare, but more effective round in which the "cartridge" became a multi-barrel .22lr. IIRC it had about 17 barrels, fired all at once. THis would be pretty nasty.

 

I have heard that the 40mm grenade launcher is devastating even if the impact is too close, so the round has not had time to fuse. Basically like a 40mm pistol round. Velocity is only about 250 fps, but grenade iirc is 4 oz. just Nasty. And if it IS fused...

 

I have my doubts still about the Blended Metal Technology bullets. I have met the main people from the Company, and liked them. The interesting capability of their round is the penetration of armor, then fragmentation.

 

There is a significant question as to whether it will be legal under the "Laws of War"

FOr police and such, it would be legal, depending on the locality, but they would be worried about penetration of their own vests. Something like 40% of all Police shot are shot with their own guns, iirc. If the round will penetrate their vest like it wasn't there...(note the company says they have a soft armor that stops it cold. )

 

 

I would also like to see some explanation/ rethinking of the damage, ocv, and range mod numbers. I E-mailed the guy at Wizards of the Coast about the writeup of .22lr pistols being far less accurate at range than a BOW.

WHile I know Olympic Archers can do amazing things at 70 yards, A friend and I (I had to use a rest, he didn't) were hitting cans of spray paint at 85-90 yards with A Bernadelli pistol, kind of a low end target pistol. He could do it pretty regularly. He was NOT of Olympic caliber. I would be afraid of what my cousin's wife, who IS on the olympic pistol team could do. Of course, my cousin is on the olympic rifle team, so....

 

 

 

 

The M203 grenade launcher has what's called a submunition round. Basically, it's a 40mm shotgun shell with a hell of a lot of powder. There is an account of a Marine in Somalia using one of these on a threatening person about 7 feet away from him, and the guy was absolutely obliterated.

 

Also, I posted a link to a video clip to something called either a blended metal or a liquid metal round. The energy of impact is enough to liquify the metal, thereby transfering almost all of it's energy into it's target. The lagre potroast the round hit was heavily damaged. The damaged tissue was in about a 3 inch radius from the impact.

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Very good points. I really like the idea of updated info on the recoilless rifles, the mortars, and demolitions.

 

There are the new Mauser Recoilless AUTOCANNONS that can be mounted on light vehicles....

 

 

Not guns per se but I'd like to see more on demolitions, explosives and EOD.

 

Definately more less than lethal weapons, there are quite a few on the verge of practical use. Discovery Channel or the History Channel occasionally runs a really good show on many of the up and coming less than lethal weapons out there and on the drawing board from tasers and really stinky paintball guns to a strobe guns that make the target get disoriented.

 

While I know how squeemish many Hero gamers are about attaching game stats to real stats I hope you will include some discussion of how to compare new weapons to existing weapons in the designing weapons section. Whether you go with a hard x# of foot pounds equals y DC or just a ball park method of comparison I think it is worthy of mention in the book. I assume you have someway of making that decision I'd like to see it included even if it is just a feeling of where it goes.

 

Strangely I'm not all that interested in a big list of guns in this book (I've already got so many gun books at home) rather I'd like to see a wide selection of weapon types, maybe a dozen of each (pistols, rifles, shotguns etc) but make sure to include widely differant examples of each, single action big big bore revolver (.475 Linebaugh type), big bore double action revolver (.44 Mag), a couple of 9mm pistols, .22 back up, .22 target pistol, a silhouette pistol (bolt action rifle caliber target pistol) etc rather than 27 9mm handguns that are all pretty much the same. This will really make it easier to add in weapons later.

 

Heavy weapons too, 40mm grenade launchers, recoiless rifles, wire guided missiles, mortar or two.

 

Examples of weapons that require special rules like guided missiles and mortars.

 

Some indirect fire rules for calling in artillery would be nice too.

 

 

Basically I'm looking for examples of rule use to build unusual weapons.

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

The vest I tried would have SOme effect versus a baseball bat, but not as much as solid armor.

 

 

I think Metal Storm http://www.metalstorm.com/ weapons definitely fit the definition of "cutting-edge". I'd really like to see an official write up on them. Especially the O'Dwyer VLe Smartgun http://www.metalstorm.com/04_what_is_a_smart_gun.html, it has non-lethal and lethal rounds available via selector switch or voice activation.

 

It also be very nice to see some work on armor. This subject tends to get overlooked when guns are brought up. I'd like to see some coverage of newer aramid fibers and materials like Spectra. Spider silk will also be an option in the near future and could easily be available in a DC campaign. And of course there is this little gem about liquid armor http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,usa3_042104.00.html.

 

But advances and new stuff aside a more detailed write-up of Kevlar type soft armors would be nice. For instance the protection they provide really only works against bullets. A Kevlar vest without an insert is usless at protecting against a knife or even a baseball bat and the write-up should reflect that in a gritty campaign.

 

And what would the average vigilante be without his ride? A small addition that covered class IV and V armors that can be bought for real world vehicles would be nice. It would give GMs a guideline for armoring a Mafia Don's limo or a Brinks money transport. Class IV armors for instance should stop a perfectly square hit from a .308 at point blank, so it would be a least rPD 13 in Hero terms.

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

The OICW/whatever the name of the Week is, M-25 or 29 iirc can have it's thermal camera fed to a helmet mounted sight. So can the French PAPOP (35!mm grenade launcher) and I think the new COrnershot can also.

 

Good rules for laser sights, they do have some usefulness both in the daylight and at fairly long ranges now.

 

Rules for Pepper Spray. It is not just a flash, but if you write it up as much more, it is more expensive than most guns, iirc.

 

The "Spike" missile the Marines are looking at, not the Israeli anti-tank, rather a 2-3 lb mini missile with up to a 2 mile range(daylight or if there is a laser spot it can be locked onto) with a small AP explosive warhead (self forging fragment) that is fire and forget with an optical seeker and the total launcher/missile/fire control only weighs about 7lbs. Designed to kill trucks, mashinegun nests, helicopters under good conditions... Missiles are designed to cost less than $4k.

 

more on the heavy rifles. I have always felt that the .50 Browning should be 3d6+1, iirc the energy numbers can justify this, and it allows there to be rifles such as the .375 H&H (low end elephant rifle) doing different damage than .458 Win, .460 Weatherby. .700 Nitro Express ($100 per shot!)

 

Oh, there are concepts for small guided rounds, I don't know much about them. Now Guided mortar rounds and such...

 

New gun stuff? Him. . . . .

 

how about

 

The russians built a new seris of inf rifles that fire the secound round before the first left the barrel so the secound round is very accurate and the rifle barrel impulses back in a cool way.

 

Report of guided 50cal rounds (laser?).

 

The million rounds a second system. The round are in the barrel stacked one on anther so the barrel in the mag. The rounds are fired electronicly and the speed in up at million rounds a sec. The pistol has four barrel and holds 10 rds each and is the size of a 45. so those geeky multi barrel future guns in sf movies are not that far off .

 

shotguns have teargas, flame, flash bang, bean bag rounds for years

 

Safety locks do not work like every one wants yet (dna machting).

 

Camera on guns. not there yet but years to a good one (look around or over things and soon after that my lt can see what it sees.)

 

Lasers build into the gun it self.

 

Lord Ghee

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I was just going to suggest bringing back the size and concealment rules.

 

The Kel-tec P3AT will fit in your back pocket with ease, holds iirc 7 rds of .380, and with my wife's I could do head shots at 50 feet. Needless to say, I was quite impressed.

 

A Lot of good suggestions so far.

 

I'd like some rules on concealable weapons and the technology to combat them. Rules for detection equipment, airport security type of stuff (metal detectors, x-ray machines). Weapons that can be broken-down and disguised. Covert ops stuff.

 

It might be cool to have a bit about how characters with the proper skills can customize their own weapons or ammo. Perhaps even make their own custom weapons. I want to be the man with the golden gun (that sort of stuff).

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I always preferred the DI version of Shotguns. For one thing it imo accurately made it easier to hit past a certain range, though the damage was less due to spread.

 

Materials usable to make bullets from might be interesting, I understand pure Silver doesn't work so good (too hard), gold might but werewolves don't mind gold. This might be more appropriate whenever Horror gets its own book but the comments about cyanide bullets etc got me thinking.

 

As far as other kinds of bullets I think within the limits of HERO your going to be limited to expanding (soft points, hollow points, glasers), AP, frangible rounds (powdered lead that break up easily to avoid over penatration), shot, and perhaps target rounds. I agree with the other poster that I'd like to see the DI method of handling these used but please feel free to surprise me by finding a better way or ways to handle more types of bullets. Obviously shotguns have a few more varieties available.

[Toadmaster]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Hey, Gewing I was starting to wonder what happend to you, two days on a major gun thread and I hadn't heard a whisper, then BAM , you certainly do know how to make an enterance.

 

 

While it is stretching it a bit I do agree with bumping the .50 cal up to 3d6+1, the 1DC differance opens up the damage spacing just enough to get a nice spread for the rifles (30-06), magnum rifles (.300 WinMag, .338 Winmag), big magnum rifles (.375 H&H, .458 WinMag) and El Mucho Grande Magnum rifles (.460 Weatherby, .600 Nitro) which are all dwarfed by the .50 BMG.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Not to worry' date=' o Master of Toads! I have a mighty long list of bullet and shotgun ammo types, and very good ways to handle them all (including Many Useful Reference Charts). If there's one thing this book's not gonna lack for, its types of bullets. [/quote'] This being the case, you really should pull the quote from gewing's sig and stick it in a sidebar.

[Edsel]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Not to worry' date=' o Master of Toads! I have a mighty long list of bullet and shotgun ammo types, and very good ways to handle them all (including Many Useful Reference Charts). If there's one thing this book's not gonna lack for, its types of bullets. [/quote']

Okay, for those of us who do Dark Champions / Horror Hero cross-overs...

What about rules for silver bullets, wooden bullets, cold-iron. How dense is silver compaired to lead anyway?

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Well, I don't have internet at home.

I am not sure of any other way to do it. Unless you retroactively remove a bunch of cartridges stun mods, and add it to the heavy magnums.... IMO There should be a difference between hunting rifle, Magnum rifle, and HEAVY magnum rifle.

 

 

 

Hey, Gewing I was starting to wonder what happend to you, two days on a major gun thread and I hadn't heard a whisper, then BAM , you certainly do know how to make an enterance.

 

 

While it is stretching it a bit I do agree with bumping the .50 cal up to 3d6+1, the 1DC differance opens up the damage spacing just enough to get a nice spread for the rifles (30-06), magnum rifles (.300 WinMag, .338 Winmag), big magnum rifles (.375 H&H, .458 WinMag) and El Mucho Grande Magnum rifles (.460 Weatherby, .600 Nitro) which are all dwarfed by the .50 BMG.

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Of the top of my head, ... Never mind, I found something at http://tm.wc.ask.com/r?t=c&s=a&id=30780&sv=za5cb0dc7&uid=055DD3DFC779C9704&sid=15268D2A1D8DB7B04&p=%2flinks&o=0&u=http://www.supermalta.com/en-us/pg_19.html

 

Metal Density

Gold 19.3

Silver 10.5

Platinum 21.4

Palladium 12.0

Copper 9.0

9ct 10.9 to 12.7

14ct 12.9 to 14.6

18ct Yellow 15.2 to 15.9

18ct White 14.7 to 16.9

22ct 17.7 to 17.8

Sterling Silver 10.2 to 10.3

Platinum 20.1

 

and even better at http://tm.wc.ask.com/r?t=c&s=a&id=30780&sv=za5cb0d8f&uid=055DD3DFC779C9704&sid=15268D2A1D8DB7B04&p=%2flinks&o=0&u=http://ep.llnl.gov/msds/Chem120/metal-densities.html

 

 

titanium is about 60% as heavy as steel, and aluminum about 33% steel as I remembered is about 8 times the density of water. copper is about 9Silver is 10 ish

gold is 19, lead should be about the same, and tungsten is denser yet.

 

remember there is usually a copper jacket around modern bullets.

 

wood would be much lighter, and need a jacket or sabot. Though the Japanese did use wood bullets at the end of WWII... Nasty wounds at Short ranges. And for the poor vampire who attacks the WWII vet with his souvenir Arisaka...

 

 

Okay, for those of us who do Dark Champions / Horror Hero cross-overs...

What about rules for silver bullets, wooden bullets, cold-iron. How dense is silver compaired to lead anyway?

[Toadmaster]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Okay, for those of us who do Dark Champions / Horror Hero cross-overs...

What about rules for silver bullets, wooden bullets, cold-iron. How dense is silver compaired to lead anyway?

 

Its not so much about the density its the hardness, lead alone is too soft for most modern guns it just strips out filling the rifling with shavings and not getting the proper spin which is why "lead" bullets are actually a lead alloy, silver on the other hand is too hard (or so I recall) making it tough on the gun barrel. Sure you can put a copper jacket on it but what effect does copper coated silver have on a werewolf?

 

My solution for horror games has generally been, get a shotgun (you can stuff pretty much anything in a shotgun shell) or for those with extraordinary resources can use saboted ammo, the sabot takes care of getting the slug down range. My favorite round from a Stalking the Night Fantastic game was a bane round we cooked up after getting our butts kicked by a demon who could only be hurt by glass (IIRC) basically it was a shotgun shell with bits of broken glass, silver & gold pellets, wood chunks, pebbles and anything else we could think of, we thought something in it should hurt critters with unknown vulnerabilities, oh yeah we loaded a magazine full into a full auto shotgun, unfortunately the next time we ran into a demon it turned out to be a hoax (a guy in a rubber suit), on the plus side it got my character into the looney bin instead of prison (it wasn't hard to argue he was insane).

[tmutant]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Its not so much about the density its the hardness, lead alone is too soft for most modern guns it just strips out filling the rifling with shavings and not getting the proper spin which is why "lead" bullets are actually a lead alloy, silver on the other hand is too hard (or so I recall) making it tough on the gun barrel. Sure you can put a copper jacket on it but what effect does copper coated silver have on a werewolf?

 

My solution for horror games has generally been, get a shotgun (you can stuff pretty much anything in a shotgun shell) or for those with extraordinary resources can use saboted ammo, the sabot takes care of getting the slug down range. My favorite round from a Stalking the Night Fantastic game was a bane round we cooked up after getting our butts kicked by a demon who could only be hurt by glass (IIRC) basically it was a shotgun shell with bits of broken glass, silver & gold pellets, wood chunks, pebbles and anything else we could think of, we thought something in it should hurt critters with unknown vulnerabilities, oh yeah we loaded a magazine full into a full auto shotgun, unfortunately the next time we ran into a demon it turned out to be a hoax (a guy in a rubber suit), on the plus side it got my character into the looney bin instead of prison (it wasn't hard to argue he was insane).

 

 

You can alloy the silver to make it softer, or use a sabot made of plastic which drops off after the round leaves the barrel.

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I have been thinking about making little display boxes, with "In case of Werewolf, break glass" INside would be 2 12 gauge shells loaded with old silver dimes. An old west gunfighter favorite, I understand. I think they spread Really fast as the dimes turn sideways, so probably WOULD be area effect.

 

Its not so much about the density its the hardness, lead alone is too soft for most modern guns it just strips out filling the rifling with shavings and not getting the proper spin which is why "lead" bullets are actually a lead alloy, silver on the other hand is too hard (or so I recall) making it tough on the gun barrel. Sure you can put a copper jacket on it but what effect does copper coated silver have on a werewolf?

 

My solution for horror games has generally been, get a shotgun (you can stuff pretty much anything in a shotgun shell) or for those with extraordinary resources can use saboted ammo, the sabot takes care of getting the slug down range. My favorite round from a Stalking the Night Fantastic game was a bane round we cooked up after getting our butts kicked by a demon who could only be hurt by glass (IIRC) basically it was a shotgun shell with bits of broken glass, silver & gold pellets, wood chunks, pebbles and anything else we could think of, we thought something in it should hurt critters with unknown vulnerabilities, oh yeah we loaded a magazine full into a full auto shotgun, unfortunately the next time we ran into a demon it turned out to be a hoax (a guy in a rubber suit), on the plus side it got my character into the looney bin instead of prison (it wasn't hard to argue he was insane).

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Or you could cast it with "Driving bands" and molycoat it.

 

One interesting thing on metallurgy, my dad uses an Aluminum, I think it is 7075, that is roughly the same strength as mild steel and about 1/3 the mass. I have some "Interesting" ideas based on that fact.

 

 

 

You can alloy the silver to make it softer' date=' or use a sabot made of plastic which drops off after the round leaves the barrel.[/quote']

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Here was a recent thread on a very nasty Russian-made shotgun. Note that the first link recommends a reference work for now-declassified Soviet-era weapons.

 

Just got through looking at the thread in question, and it brought to mind

another Russian-made shotgun, the Saiga-12 (I think that's how it's spell-

ed), a semiauto job with a 7-round box magazine that's mostly used by

SWAT-type police units. I've got the information on it somewhere here at

home.

 

As far as 40mm grenade rounds go, I'd like to see something like the RAP

(Rocket Assissted Projectile) round included. This particular round is used

in automatic grenade launchers like the MOD-19, and can hit a target at

up to 1,000 meters away.

 

Major Tom

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I have heard of an experimental Rocket assisted grenade, but not for the Mk 19. It's High velocity grenade (3x as fast as the M-203) can reach out to 1600 meters, but is definately an area weapon at that range. It takes something like 15 seconds to get there, and travels on a trajectory almost like a mortar. nasty though.

 

Just got through looking at the thread in question, and it brought to mind

another Russian-made shotgun, the Saiga-12 (I think that's how it's spell-

ed), a semiauto job with a 7-round box magazine that's mostly used by

SWAT-type police units. I've got the information on it somewhere here at

home.

 

As far as 40mm grenade rounds go, I'd like to see something like the RAP

(Rocket Assissted Projectile) round included. This particular round is used

in automatic grenade launchers like the MOD-19, and can hit a target at

up to 1,000 meters away.

 

Major Tom

[assault]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I'd like to see some older weapons. For example, the kind of gear that was floating around between, say 1946-1966. That would allow for some classic Cold War espionage games, (and provide some support for Silver Age Champions!). It would also help fill in a gap between Pulp Hero & Golden Age Champions, on the one hand, and the modern period on the other.

 

I'm not talking about much - say a few rifles, a few SMGs, and maybe a few other weapons. You might throw in a few vehicles - how fast do fifties era vehicles go, compared to present ones? - plus, perhaps, a few other odds and ends (radios?). Much of this stuff could be used in present day games too.

 

Incidentally, this is not unreasonable, if you have a look at the history of the Hero System. Espionage was written in the early 1980's, and it's technology was essentially that of the 1970's. Pushing back a bit further shouldn't be too difficult.

 

On guns in general: generally speaking, I only ever use a few common designs. Pages and pages of weapons is usually dead space as far as I am concerned. But it's of interest to some people, so I can deal with it. And if my own silly prejudices are covered, I'm happy.