We're Gonna Need Guns

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Recoil recovery is an interesting issue. I enjoyed shooting a .44 Desert Eagle, but to me it was more of a target range and hunting gun. Dead on accurate and controllable, but too heavy for me, at 220 lbs and halfway decent arms strength at the time. I just couldn't have carried it comfortably, and my hands weren't big enough to feel COMFORTABLE shooting it one handed, in fact I HAD to use two hands so I could manipulate the controls.

 

The mega single action revolvers are probable much quicker into action (.475 linebaugh Ruger, etc) but again they have the recoil recovery problem.

 

I would far rather have a Marlin 1895 G with modern heavy loads or a 12 ga with slugs.

 

Then there are the "Shadow Run" idiots that got cyclic rate and velocity confused.

 

The other issue that I see with people trying to use guns in hero is that the concept of how fast you can fire it isn't well represented (vs a semi-competent attempt in Shadow Run). There are reasons that people who carry guns for a living don't carry Desert Eagle .50 AEs to a gunfight. I can put several hammers into a target before a typical person with an .50 AE (or similar huge round) gets the second round off.

 

However, if you are carrying a gun to deal with Grizzly or Kodiak bears then a pistol chambered in .50 AE is lot more convenient than a rifle. They are really slow to shoot follow-up shots due to the recoil, but damned accurate.

 

Equally, if you weight 350 lbs and are proportionately strong it might work also.

[Enforcer84]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

All I want is an HD prefab with them in Heroic and SUperheroic format...

[Steve Long]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Howdy, folx! Just wanted to say thanx for all the suggestions so far, and to please keep 'em coming if you're so inclined.

 

A couple of general notes that may save some people some time for future posts (if any):

 

1. There'll be few, if any, antique or really old firearms in DC. I don't have the space. Even if I did, I don't have the time to research them. And even if I had the time, they're of limited relevance to the subject of the book. You'll haveta wait for The Ultimate Weapon, various genre books, and the like.

 

2. Of course I'm going to have some nonlethal weapons.

 

And now, back to writing....

[LordGhee]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Acorrding to a friend of mine who worked for the FBI the .22 was used because it was the quietest of guns and the bullet most of the time deformed win it hits (mainly bone). Hits take place at a few feet since the main target is the head. (check out goodfellows or casino (moivies). The germans develepoded a silenced luger which fell into allied hands in Eygt which the Oss liked so they developed the silence .22 it was so quiet that Wild Bill Donvan head of the Oss took it to show FDR. As the President was talking on the Phone W.B. shot his pillow full of holes on the couch next to him and FDR did not notice. FDR then proceeded to shoot up the office! It ended up on display for tours where an Oss agent reporting to the White house notice it a year later (1943) where it had sat for all to see! (This from the bio on Wild Bill)

There have been many studies on leathality.

 

Mass times velocity.

but to fast and the bullet goes through the body and cause less damage.

 

.357 +P is best (max v)

but the 45 is very good large mass x low v

and one State police study of the 1950 conside the cap and ball .44 -50 as the best man stopper. lots of mass and the slow moving ball transfers all of the enegery to the target.

 

Lord Ghee

[Tasha]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I for one would LIKE to see a fairly complete modern guns chart. The one in the original DChamps, is just a good resource. I don't really want to have to even have to spend time to make sure that a particular gun a player wants is "right". I really just want to look at the chart see the stats and then go. Also special rounds would be nice to have stats on. I second a call for Piercing points to make a re-appearance.

 

All of the other stuff that was in the original DC books are very useful as well, esp if they are updated. We tend to use a lot of "real world" stuff in our regular champions games.

 

Of course making sure that Hero Designer gets prefabs for all of the equipment would be nice as well.

 

Thanks,

Tasha

[Edsel]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I second a call for Piercing points to make a re-appearance.

I'll third that. We've been using piercing points as a house rule ever since they were officially dropped.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Let's put in squirt guns, from little toy pistols to super-soakers. Sure, they may not seem effective in this sort of thing, but that all depends on what you put in them....

[lemming]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

A story at /. about Next generation Stun Guns

 

or if you want the links from there:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996014

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9869233%255E401,00.html

http://www.xtremeads.com

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

We have always allowed damage that is only for penetrating armor.

 

I'll third that. We've been using piercing points as a house rule ever since they were officially dropped.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

what about binary propellant and ETC rounds?

 

early gauss and flechette weapons?

 

the water knife is a neat concept that already sees industrial use

and theres a man portable written up in the Emperors Arsenal book for Trav veller 4th Edition

[Markdoc]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

One suggestion, re: the idea that gun combat in Hero system is much more accurate than it is in real life. Add an optional rule called "combat stress", for gritty, heroic games.

 

This is simply that you only get your full OCV when concentrating. If you want to stand still (DCV 0) then you get your full OCV. If you want to move slowly and take aimed shots (1/2 DCV) then you are at half OCV. If you want to take snap shots while moving (full DCV) then you are at 0 OCV.

 

I tried this in a Sci-fi con game and it had the following advantages.

 

1. It's realistic. My personal experiences suggest that a shooter under any kind of stress has their effective range (ie the range at which you can normally expect to hit something) reduced by about 75%. My dad, a decorated vet with extensive combat experience, was a bit crueller - he reckoned a 90% reduction was closer to the truth.

 

2. It gives an extra advantage to automatic weapons. If you are at half DCV you can still do suppression fire on a hex with a reasonable chance of causing someone grief - even if you are at 0 DCV, you can make them worried. This makes automatic fire the method of choice in assaults - just as it is in real life. It also encourages the "everybody shoot the crap out of the windows, while we run up to the building" approach, with its concomittent wastage of ammo. It also ensures an "emplaced" automatic weapon (even if it's just a guy lying down at the corner of a wall) is way scarier to assault. These are also true to life.

 

3. It places a high priority on cover. If you have to be at DCV 0 to take that shot the length of the street, you're not going to want to do it standing up in the open.

 

4. Just like in real life, it differentiates the weapons suitable for the "stalk and shoot" approach from those suited to "spray and pray" and rewards tactical thinking. All too often the tendency for Dark Champions players is to take "whatever does the most damage" because weapons work equally well at the range most combat occurs at.

 

5. It reflects the truism that in combat 10% of the soldiers get 90% of the kills. These are the guys who are prepared to stick their head up and take their time for a clean shot - in other words, the ones who are briefly at DCV 0.

 

There is one negative aspect: players hate not being able to take down the bad guys from a half klick away (although they still can, if they stand still and aim)

 

Cheers, Mark

[Kevin Rose]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Cool idea. I'd probably prefer that you still get skill levels (in some fashion) even at a run but no dex based OCV. I saw an IPSC master/grand master put a hammer into 3 targets one handed as he ran past them. Only 3-6 yards away, but very impressive. So I'd argue for full or 1/2 skill levels with dex OCV of zero and range mods of -1 per inch or so. Which works pretty good against DCV 1 or 2 paper targets.

 

I find that moving and shooting has serious effects on accuracy even at close range, at least for me, even while moving at a shuffle. I can't imagine effectively shooting at significant range while moving. I'd probably argue for range mods that made long range shooting much tougher and close range somewhat harder. Say range mode of -1 per 2" and 1/2 dex based OCV?

 

 

One suggestion, re: the idea that gun combat in Hero system is much more accurate than it is in real life. Add an optional rule called "combat stress", for gritty, heroic games.

 

This is simply that you only get your full OCV when concentrating. If you want to stand still (DCV 0) then you get your full OCV. If you want to move slowly and take aimed shots (1/2 DCV) then you are at half OCV. If you want to take snap shots while moving (full DCV) then you are at 0 OCV.

 

I tried this in a Sci-fi con game and it had the following advantages.

 

1. It's realistic. My personal experiences suggest that a shooter under any kind of stress has their effective range (ie the range at which you can normally expect to hit something) reduced by about 75%. My dad, a decorated vet with extensive combat experience, was a bit crueller - he reckoned a 90% reduction was closer to the truth.

 

2. It gives an extra advantage to automatic weapons. If you are at half DCV you can still do suppression fire on a hex with a reasonable chance of causing someone grief - even if you are at 0 DCV, you can make them worried. This makes automatic fire the method of choice in assaults - just as it is in real life. It also encourages the "everybody shoot the crap out of the windows, while we run up to the building" approach, with its concomittent wastage of ammo. It also ensures an "emplaced" automatic weapon (even if it's just a guy lying down at the corner of a wall) is way scarier to assault. These are also true to life.

 

3. It places a high priority on cover. If you have to be at DCV 0 to take that shot the length of the street, you're not going to want to do it standing up in the open.

 

4. Just like in real life, it differentiates the weapons suitable for the "stalk and shoot" approach from those suited to "spray and pray" and rewards tactical thinking. All too often the tendency for Dark Champions players is to take "whatever does the most damage" because weapons work equally well at the range most combat occurs at.

 

5. It reflects the truism that in combat 10% of the soldiers get 90% of the kills. These are the guys who are prepared to stick their head up and take their time for a clean shot - in other words, the ones who are briefly at DCV 0.

 

There is one negative aspect: players hate not being able to take down the bad guys from a half klick away (although they still can, if they stand still and aim)

 

Cheers, Mark

[RDU Neil]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

One suggestion, re: the idea that gun combat in Hero system is much more accurate than it is in real life. Add an optional rule called "combat stress", for gritty, heroic games.

 

This is simply that you only get your full OCV when concentrating. If you want to stand still (DCV 0) then you get your full OCV. If you want to move slowly and take aimed shots (1/2 DCV) then you are at half OCV. If you want to take snap shots while moving (full DCV) then you are at 0 OCV.

 

I tried this in a Sci-fi con game and it had the following advantages.

 

1. It's realistic. My personal experiences suggest that a shooter under any kind of stress has their effective range (ie the range at which you can normally expect to hit something) reduced by about 75%. My dad, a decorated vet with extensive combat experience, was a bit crueller - he reckoned a 90% reduction was closer to the truth.

 

2. It gives an extra advantage to automatic weapons. If you are at half DCV you can still do suppression fire on a hex with a reasonable chance of causing someone grief - even if you are at 0 DCV, you can make them worried. This makes automatic fire the method of choice in assaults - just as it is in real life. It also encourages the "everybody shoot the crap out of the windows, while we run up to the building" approach, with its concomittent wastage of ammo. It also ensures an "emplaced" automatic weapon (even if it's just a guy lying down at the corner of a wall) is way scarier to assault. These are also true to life.

 

3. It places a high priority on cover. If you have to be at DCV 0 to take that shot the length of the street, you're not going to want to do it standing up in the open.

 

4. Just like in real life, it differentiates the weapons suitable for the "stalk and shoot" approach from those suited to "spray and pray" and rewards tactical thinking. All too often the tendency for Dark Champions players is to take "whatever does the most damage" because weapons work equally well at the range most combat occurs at.

 

5. It reflects the truism that in combat 10% of the soldiers get 90% of the kills. These are the guys who are prepared to stick their head up and take their time for a clean shot - in other words, the ones who are briefly at DCV 0.

 

There is one negative aspect: players hate not being able to take down the bad guys from a half klick away (although they still can, if they stand still and aim)

 

Cheers, Mark

 

I like this a lot... but then I've always loved the low-level, "realistic" DI kinds of games. I've gone about it differently.

 

All characters have automatic +3 to DCV vs. range. It's just harder to hit at range.

 

OCV plusses on guns only work when braced & set (your 0 DCV concentrate)... so you have to aim a gun to get it's bonus.

 

Autofire... roll every bullet, each one at a cumulative -2 to hit. This means, the final round may be -10, but you still could roll a 3. More rolls allow the odds on more hits to go up. Throwing lead actually gives multiple chances to hit. (This can take a while with 10 shot or more autofire... so I don't really recommend it with lots of players.)

 

Cover not only give +2 to +4 DCV... but even if you hit, the cover could still take the round, if the hit location is covered. Example: I'm exposing my head and right arm, shoulder to fire. I have +6 DCV... but the enemy manages to hit anyway... roll hit location... turns out to be my left thigh, which is behind the wall... so the wall takes the round first, likely stopping the round. (Blow through occassionally would still hit, but that was rare.) Cover became very important.

 

 

Lots of ways of making gun (and all range) combat, a little less "one shot, easy hit" which is how the Hero System, based on supers combat, works. See my thread on gun-fu, as another discussion on encouraging lots of lead being thrown, over single shot, old-cowboy movie combat.

 

Neil

[Dog Soldier]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Lots of interesting stuff here. I'll just put in a few basics about wound ballistics. Firearms work by exposing the inside of the target to the outside enviroment, in other words letting air in and letting 'juice' out.

 

The deeper the wound the more, different tissue is exposed. Given the same depth of penetration the larger the diameter of the hole the more effective the wounding mechanism. The larger diameter also increases the likelyhood of 'clipping' something vital.

 

Ideally the projectile would break the skin on the opposite side of the target and fall to the ground. That almost never happens.

 

The projectile needs to be able to defeat natural armor. On humanoid targets this would be the pelvic girdle, the pectoral girdle and the skull.

 

As a general rule of thumb protective body armor defeats handguns and rifles defeat protective body armor.

 

.22 rimfires are favored by hitmen because it's easy to pump 10 rounds into the victim rapidly. That's 10 wounds, all of which would need surgery. That effectively reduces the chance for survival to zero.

[Kevin Rose]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Lots of interesting stuff here. I'll just put in a few basics about wound ballistics. Firearms work by exposing the inside of the target to the outside enviroment, in other words letting air in and letting 'juice' out.

 

The deeper the wound the more, different tissue is exposed. Given the same depth of penetration the larger the diameter of the hole the more effective the wounding mechanism. The larger diameter also increases the likelyhood of 'clipping' something vital.

[snip]

 

As a general rule of thumb protective body armor defeats handguns and rifles defeat protective body armor.

 

 

Simulating semi-realistic wound effects is a hard problem. It's just not easy to do as it is not deterministic.

 

The South Carolina cop who shot a guy 5 tmes with a .357 magnum hollowpoints at less than 10 feet didn't do any really serious damage to him, though it did hurt him enough that he didn't get away. He was a big fat guy and the bullets didn't reach anything vital. The second .22 the guy shot killed the cop when it entered his arm and cut an artery in his chest. The other .22 was stopped by his vest.

 

I know a guy who had to shoot someone 11 times to cause him to stop shooting at him and his partner. The FBI's Miami Massacre had three FBI agents killed by a guy who had taken an unsurvivable wound in the opening volley. He ended up being killed by a wounded FBI agent who emptied his revolver into his head a few minutes later while he was trying to get away. Some people take a lot of killing.

 

People keep fighting with wounds that should incapacitate them and still kill their opponent. Some people take a flesh wound and go into shock and die.

 

For Hero this would suggest a lot more emphasis on body and/or ego rolls to keep operating when hurt. And even if your heart is destroyed you can still act for several seconds. Cops have drawn and killed people who had just shot them through the heart before dying.

 

There was one case I heard of where the cop got shot and the ambulance had a trauma surgeon on board. He and the bad guy (who was also shot a bit by his partner) where being worked on. The doc tells him that there is nothing he can do and he's going to die in a minute or so and is there anything he wants to say. The cops tells him to tell his wife that he lovers her, draws his gun and shoots the guy who shot him in the head and then dies.

 

The body armor problem is much easier to fix as the actual mechanism is well understood. However it requires some significant changes to the rules. The problem is that Hero gloms together the weapons "ability to hurt you" and the weapons "ability to penetrate armor" into a single statistic - which is somewhat of the reverse of reality. This can be somewhat fixed by making handgun bullets reduced penetration (and ignoring stun for non penetrating bullets) or by fully completely reworking armor into classes of armor with weapons having a fixed penetration value.

[Metaphysician]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

IIRC, the other advantage to .22 rounds, at least for head shots at close range, is they go in, but won't pierce the other side of the skull, resulting in more brain damage.

[MisterD]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

I don't know if it was addressed. Anything on gun Skills?

 

Tunelling 1" x Def. (Shooting out a wall to create a doorway or weaken a wall so a goot kick can knock part of it down?

 

Area effect radius To hit all thoes goons surrounding the character.

 

Any other ideas?

[steriaca]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

What I would love to see is a gun kata where the hero shoots three thugs with one bullet. I don't remember, thoe, does Charges count as each 'burst', or as each individual bullet?

 

This also requiers a limitation to repersent that the three targets must be close together to each other relativitly. How much of a lim is that?

[steriaca]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Oh, and the "Z-Group" ability to shoot at a hex instead of a person, and then cause eveyone in the hex to basicly jump up. Prehaps an Explosion, Stun Only, Does Knockback/Knockdown attack?

[Wolf]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Hey everybody your favorite neighborhood wolf here, I have some thoughts, but first the sights....

I think ppl might like to look at the newest off the line from H&K with the OICW progect, it's the XM-8, and is looking to be America's next major assult rifle, Carbine, SAW, and undermounted Granade launcher all in one... It's a pretty abititous project, and they say that by 2008 we could see it on the line. Here's the website:

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html

 

Personally, I would like to see a book at some time that deals with Dul-Ram rounds, or depleated uranium rounds. I know in Desert storm they were being put through Barret .50's and getting engine/crew Kills in one shot... that's some dunk if you ask me... good stuff.

 

Oh, personal peave, Please put in there something about the diference between the .50AE and the .50 round... I know too many ppl who think that the Desert Eagle .50AE shoots .50 rounds, and that is just getting too silly for words. It's enough to get under a persons skin, any other gunbunnies out there feel me on that one?

 

If I've said it once, I've said it a milion times, Kydex (spelling?) holsters rock.

 

Make note of the difference between a Red Dot (point scope), and a more traditional scope.. please.

 

I'd like to see some rules for the standard "duble-tap" or just a writeup on it... it's a way of shooting that is closest to the "more led, means better chance to hit, thus better chance to down a target".

 

Quote

RDU neil said:

I'd also love some kind of rule mods that encourage "throwing a lot of lead" as in real life... rather than the standard Hero combat of counting every shot, rarely having to reload, etc. Automatic weapons are better than single shot because they not only increase the number of possible hits... but increase the chance of hitting period. This isn't reflected in Hero... for game balance reasons at the supers level, I understand... but it makes automatic weapons much less scary than they should be. Close quarters automatic gunfire should be horrendously scary, IMO. Characters should be encouraged to throw multiple shots down range (realistic fashion, or a'la John Wu, either way) for better chances to hit/more damage... etc.

-Quote

 

As an infantry man, veteran of 1 forign military action, and Paratrooper, I just wish to point out that More led= heads down, not better chance to hit, in fact your acruacy goes south like a duck in winter the more rounds you fire out your barrel in one fire grouping... Plus it wastes your ammo real quickly. I've seen it a million times, somone on a .50 Cal. rocking away, from a braced and set position (read, on the top of a parked Track) trying to hit a platoon of targets, and not able to hit one... in fact If I ever get shot at by a large spray fire weapon, I've noticed the best thing to do is not to move, because he (the firerer) is shure as spit not going to be able to place any rounds where he's aiming... Trained soldiers, well trained soldiers and those who hit what their shooting at tend to do a much better job when fireing one round at a time... anything else is just foolish.

Go out an buy a navy seal tape, or Delta force tape or DVD, one that shows room entry, and you'll see well placed double taps at the most... and those guys almost never miss... got it... It's an old Axium from the best units out there, from the GSG-9 to the israli SF... "Two in the head, you know their dead." learn it love it, operate it...

 

That's all my input for now...

Wolf.

 

PS, just as a Me thing please put in a write up, or at least stats on the socom Mk 23 .45. I love that pistol... it's so great (wipes tear from eye).

[RDU Neil]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Wolf,

You make good points, but I'm also not talking about "spray and pray" type combat... I'm talking about firing multiple single shots or double taps or three round burst, in controlled bursts, toward targets.

 

In Hero, the system is so generous on range modifiers, basic chance to hit, etc., that it encourages a more "old western" feel of hip shotting guys at one hundred feet with a six shooter so they clutch their chest and fall, kind of game, rather than the controlled, bam/bam... bam/bam... bam/bam... shuffling forward, walking the rounds up center mass kind of firing... all done in under three seconds, to hit squarely and accurately, and with enough rounds to get the job done.

 

I'm not a highly trained pistol shooter, but I can fire pretty accurate two and three round taps, stationary or moving slowly. The game just doesn't support that, unless the character spends a lot of points to buy skills to allow it. There should be some basic maneuvers built into the game that allow for it... that's all I'm asking.

 

And at close range or point blank, two hex distance or less in Hero terms) I really think autofire weapons should get a bonus. If you are at all familiar with the kick, rise and pull of your weapon, you should have a good chance of multiple hits without being a ten year Navy SEAL vet.

 

Oh... and the "heads down" is an effect I'd really love to see. Right now, the game encourages people to ignore autofire, because, hey, more bullets means they have a lower OCV, so we are golden! It encourages rule playing, rather than dramatic role playing in gun combat, and that drives me nuts.

 

I do have question, though. At what point does automatic gunfire go from being "spray and pray" missing everyone, to "a wall of lead" that kills everything in a five meter wide spread? I'm thinking of situations like the use of the heavy machine guns on the Little Birds in Mogadishu... documented as mowing down dozens in a five second burst... and decently portrayed in the movie version of Black Hawk Down. At what point does it go from firing at a target but your rise sending bullets way off, to just filling a few meters with so much lead that everything in it is creamed?

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Little Quibble... IMO the xm8 isn't worth the cost of replacing the M-16 and retraining everyone from the grunts to thte armorers.

It is a little lighter, and a little easier to clean. Yippee. The standard barrel length is shorter, it will decrease the effective range of the weapon for most troops, and shorten the range at which the bullet performs optimally on impact.

 

If they had gone to more of a bullpup with little bit of stock length adjustment for fitting with or without body armor, I would have been more excited.

 

If they want to cut weight, they could go to the Carbon Fiber receivers from Bushmaster on the M-16. If they want to make it easier to clean, HK also has started manufacturing a new upper that is piston, rather than direct gas impingement operated.

 

I REALLY don't see what is so special about the XM-8, unless you want the troops to look like they are out of "starship troopers the abomination"

 

I haven't seen anything about FIELDED Depleted Uranium rounds for the .50 cal. I know they were developed, but iirc testing indicated there was not enough advantage to make it worthwhile. 10-15% is probably more than it would get, and that doesn't mean much more than 1-3 mm penetration for the .50 cal. The SLAP tungsten Discarding sabot at 4500 fps or so and the Raufuss "mk211" dual purpose semi ap, High explosive Incendiary are very effective though. For sniper use, the Solid copper barnes Bore Rider bullet that has a Ballistic Coefficient of greater than one is awfully nice.

 

 

 

 

Hey everybody your favorite neighborhood wolf here, I have some thoughts, but first the sights....

I think ppl might like to look at the newest off the line from H&K with the OICW progect, it's the XM-8, and is looking to be America's next major assult rifle, Carbine, SAW, and undermounted Granade launcher all in one... It's a pretty abititous project, and they say that by 2008 we could see it on the line. Here's the website:

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html

 

Personally, I would like to see a book at some time that deals with Dul-Ram rounds, or depleated uranium rounds. I know in Desert storm they were being put through Barret .50's and getting engine/crew Kills in one shot... that's some dunk if you ask me... good stuff.

 

Oh, personal peave, Please put in there something about the diference between the .50AE and the .50 round... I know too many ppl who think that the Desert Eagle .50AE shoots .50 rounds, and that is just getting too silly for words. It's enough to get under a persons skin, any other gunbunnies out there feel me on that one?

 

If I've said it once, I've said it a milion times, Kydex (spelling?) holsters rock.

 

Make note of the difference between a Red Dot (point scope), and a more traditional scope.. please.

 

I'd like to see some rules for the standard "duble-tap" or just a writeup on it... it's a way of shooting that is closest to the "more led, means better chance to hit, thus better chance to down a target".

 

Quote

RDU neil said:

I'd also love some kind of rule mods that encourage "throwing a lot of lead" as in real life... rather than the standard Hero combat of counting every shot, rarely having to reload, etc. Automatic weapons are better than single shot because they not only increase the number of possible hits... but increase the chance of hitting period. This isn't reflected in Hero... for game balance reasons at the supers level, I understand... but it makes automatic weapons much less scary than they should be. Close quarters automatic gunfire should be horrendously scary, IMO. Characters should be encouraged to throw multiple shots down range (realistic fashion, or a'la John Wu, either way) for better chances to hit/more damage... etc.

-Quote

 

As an infantry man, veteran of 1 forign military action, and Paratrooper, I just wish to point out that More led= heads down, not better chance to hit, in fact your acruacy goes south like a duck in winter the more rounds you fire out your barrel in one fire grouping... Plus it wastes your ammo real quickly. I've seen it a million times, somone on a .50 Cal. rocking away, from a braced and set position (read, on the top of a parked Track) trying to hit a platoon of targets, and not able to hit one... in fact If I ever get shot at by a large spray fire weapon, I've noticed the best thing to do is not to move, because he (the firerer) is shure as spit not going to be able to place any rounds where he's aiming... Trained soldiers, well trained soldiers and those who hit what their shooting at tend to do a much better job when fireing one round at a time... anything else is just foolish.

Go out an buy a navy seal tape, or Delta force tape or DVD, one that shows room entry, and you'll see well placed double taps at the most... and those guys almost never miss... got it... It's an old Axium from the best units out there, from the GSG-9 to the israli SF... "Two in the head, you know their dead." learn it love it, operate it...

 

That's all my input for now...

Wolf.

 

PS, just as a Me thing please put in a write up, or at least stats on the socom Mk 23 .45. I love that pistol... it's so great (wipes tear from eye).

[gewing]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Good points. I have always wished there was a mechanism for "walking" sequential shots onto target. I never got to fire enough full auto to get good at it, but I have certainly done it with semi auto and pump action guns.

 

If I was writing up the miniguns, I would probably give them something like 2x linked 2d6 +1 RKA, AF10. AF 5 and area effect Line would probably simulate it well too.

 

 

 

Wolf,

You make good points, but I'm also not talking about "spray and pray" type combat... I'm talking about firing multiple single shots or double taps or three round burst, in controlled bursts, toward targets.

 

In Hero, the system is so generous on range modifiers, basic chance to hit, etc., that it encourages a more "old western" feel of hip shotting guys at one hundred feet with a six shooter so they clutch their chest and fall, kind of game, rather than the controlled, bam/bam... bam/bam... bam/bam... shuffling forward, walking the rounds up center mass kind of firing... all done in under three seconds, to hit squarely and accurately, and with enough rounds to get the job done.

 

I'm not a highly trained pistol shooter, but I can fire pretty accurate two and three round taps, stationary or moving slowly. The game just doesn't support that, unless the character spends a lot of points to buy skills to allow it. There should be some basic maneuvers built into the game that allow for it... that's all I'm asking.

 

And at close range or point blank, two hex distance or less in Hero terms) I really think autofire weapons should get a bonus. If you are at all familiar with the kick, rise and pull of your weapon, you should have a good chance of multiple hits without being a ten year Navy SEAL vet.

 

Oh... and the "heads down" is an effect I'd really love to see. Right now, the game encourages people to ignore autofire, because, hey, more bullets means they have a lower OCV, so we are golden! It encourages rule playing, rather than dramatic role playing in gun combat, and that drives me nuts.

 

I do have question, though. At what point does automatic gunfire go from being "spray and pray" missing everyone, to "a wall of lead" that kills everything in a five meter wide spread? I'm thinking of situations like the use of the heavy machine guns on the Little Birds in Mogadishu... documented as mowing down dozens in a five second burst... and decently portrayed in the movie version of Black Hawk Down. At what point does it go from firing at a target but your rise sending bullets way off, to just filling a few meters with so much lead that everything in it is creamed?

[Steve Long]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Just a quick note, guys -- I definitely don't want to discourage any discussion of guns or gun-related issues for gaming. But at this point the manuscript is in playtesting and layout, which significantly limits my ability to add any more guns or major sets of rules. Further recommendations aren't likely to make it in, so I'd suggest starting another thread for gun stuff if you want to, and I can follow that as needed.

[Toadmaster]

Re: We're Gonna Need Guns

 

Little Quibble... IMO the xm8 isn't worth the cost of replacing the M-16 and retraining everyone from the grunts to thte armorers.

It is a little lighter, and a little easier to clean. Yippee. The standard barrel length is shorter, it will decrease the effective range of the weapon for most troops, and shorten the range at which the bullet performs optimally on impact.

 

If they had gone to more of a bullpup with little bit of stock length adjustment for fitting with or without body armor, I would have been more excited.

 

If they want to cut weight, they could go to the Carbon Fiber receivers from Bushmaster on the M-16. If they want to make it easier to clean, HK also has started manufacturing a new upper that is piston, rather than direct gas impingement operated.

 

I REALLY don't see what is so special about the XM-8, unless you want the troops to look like they are out of "starship troopers the abomination"

 

I agree with your thoughts on the XM-8, the AR family has been developed into a really nice gun, so of course lets get something new. This does seem to be straying more into something I'd expect to see at tanknet.

 

As for the Starship Troopers reference, heve you seen the animated (computer generated) series? It was a Sat morning kids show that is far superior to the movies (can you believe they made a second one) its caled Roughneck chronicles and is out on DVD (6 or 7 of them), it has some obvious ties to the movies but is much better done and is closer to the book, there were also some bits that I am pretty sure were influenced by other good sci fi, one episode reminds me of some of the Bolo storys.