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Should this be called Dark Champions?


JmOz

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Steve has asked us not to discuss the name in the what do you want to see thread. Fine. I did make one comment that I hope was at least a little helpful and not ment to get a debate going. It has now however sprong two comments, so I am starting this thread to have a sounding board for people who disagree with the name.

 

Steve has commented that there are a number of reasons for the name, the only two I have heard however are:

 

I like it (He is the owner it is his right)

Name recognition: I find this one to be weak as it is a different beast entirely

 

I would recomend that the book be called Modern Hero (Keeps the pattern), then Dark Champions be used for what is being called Animated or what ever (a book that crosses Modern hero with Champions)

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Rather than Modern Hero, I'd call it Action Hero.

 

I agree with the rest of the comments: the old Dark Champions was closer in content and (to a lesser extent) tone to what's now Dark Champions: The Animated Series. I'm rather concerned that people will pick up the new DC expecting something like the old one and walk away disappointed, or avoid the new DC for the same reason (thus my comment in the other thread about staying as far as possible from the "costumed vigilantes" image with the cover art).

 

I can think of one additional reason to keep with Dark Champions for the current book, though: it's already in the catalog under that title, meaning it's probably too late to change now even if Steve did decide to do it.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

...I'm rather concerned that people will pick up the new DC expecting something like the old one and walk away disappointed, or avoid the new DC for the same reason (thus my comment in the other thread about staying as far as possible from the "costumed vigilantes" image with the cover art)

 

Well, that would mostly apply to people that have played HERO for a while. I starting playing HERO about 10 years ago, and then suddenly stopped as the campaign that I was in ceased and there was noone else that wanted to GM HERO. I had heard of Dark Champions, and new a little of what it was about, but I still wanted to read up on it before I would buy it.

 

For those experienced players that don't pick it up immediatly, I hope they do what I do when I am uncertain about a new book. You wait till someone you know picks it up. If he "Ooos" and "Aaaahs" about it I will at least talk a hard look at it. :D

 

I can think of one additional reason to keep with Dark Champions for the current book, though: it's already in the catalog under that title, meaning it's probably too late to change now even if Steve did decide to do it.

 

Well, I definetly think that there should be something on the book, maybe on the back, that makes it plain that this isn't for the superhero-genre.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Well, I've never bought a game without knowing what it's about, so I have no sympathy for anyone who picks up Dark Champions and doesn't know what it's about. That's why I started that other thread; Because I'm unclear on what exactly it is and wanted to see what people were doing in this genre.

 

But a name is a name is a name. If it were called "Degenerate Hero" I might like it just as much. As long as they stay away from a name that would be embarassing to ask for in a store, they're fine. I mean, Tampax Hero would be counterproductive marketing.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I agree that having the word "Champions" in it pushes it away from what it sounds like it really is, which is "Action Hero" or "Modern Hero" I can certainly live with it, but it's not what I would have named it. Dark Champions seems to me to be a specific genre in and of itself that bridges Supers and Danger International... but is unique in and of itself. Use it and lean toward Champions and you get Green Arrow/Nightwing/Daredevil... use it and lean toward old Danger International, and you get, well, Hong Kong action, maybe even my "Secret Worlds" campaign style.

 

To me, though, Dark Champions still represents "larger than life" and Danger International was not... IMO. DI was secret agents (not Bond, but more Three Days of the Condor) or Sam Spade or Magnum PI or Saving Private Ryan.

 

Anyway... likely we can't change anything about it, now... but with all the other "Modern" stuff out there... d20 Modern... Spycraft... I'm surprised they went this direction with Dark Champions.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I agree with the consensus here. Dark Champions is a confusing name at best; I had completely the wrong idea about what this book was about.

 

Modern Hero or Action Hero would certainly be more informative, and would be likely to draw in buyers who otherwise wouldn't give it a second glance.

 

I would have been one who wouldn't even consider it, if not for the "We're gonna need guns" thread. That got my attention sufficiently to read the full description, which finally made me realize that this is exactly the sourcebook I need for the Post-Apocalypse game I'm currently running.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Well, I'd certainly vote for "Action Hero" as a name which better captures the tone and feel of the book. "Danger International" also has energy and captures the espionage/spy feel nicely (although I agree, it felt more like today's Queen & Country comic than a James Bond movie).

 

More of the proposed material sounds like "Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes" than "Batman", more "Commando" than "Daredevil", more "Rainbow Six" than "Secret Six" (although Secret Six might just work great as a campaign premise), more "Mission: Impossible" than "Punisher". Even "Superagents" seems to better hit the centre of the range being covered than "Dark Champions".

 

I really think you could fill several books with a spectrum of pulpish costumed avengers from the Shadow/Raven/Avenger to Batman/Daredevil/Punisher and have a great book, but the book Steve's planning to call Dark Champions is broader than that and the name seems narrow.

 

If not for the bizarre Michael Jackson connotations, "Thriller !" might be a better title than "Dark Champions".

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Well' date=' I've never bought a game without knowing what it's about, so I have no sympathy for anyone who picks up Dark Champions and doesn't know what it's about. That's why I started that other thread; Because I'm unclear on what exactly it is and wanted to see what people were doing in this genre. [/quote'] The thing is, what people have done with DC in the past is not what they'll be doing in the future, because the new DC (action-adventure) is completely different from the old one (mostly costumed vigilantes). Even the name itself, with "Champions" right there for all to see to associate it with the company's superhero line, suggests very strongly that this is going to be about costumed vigilantes and visceral superheroes -- Punisher, Batman, and Watchmen -- rather than action stuff along the lines of Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, S.W.A.T., or 24.

 

Even as it stands, it would be very low on my priority list for HERO books to buy if I didn't know what it actually was. As it is, it's going to be a very high priority, second among 2004 releases only to Worlds Of Empire.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

More of the proposed material sounds like "Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes" than "Batman", more "Commando" than "Daredevil", more "Rainbow Six" than "Secret Six" (although Secret Six might just work great as a campaign premise), more "Mission: Impossible" than "Punisher". Even "Superagents" seems to better hit the centre of the range being covered than "Dark Champions".

 

I really think you could fill several books with a spectrum of pulpish costumed avengers from the Shadow/Raven/Avenger to Batman/Daredevil/Punisher and have a great book, but the book Steve's planning to call Dark Champions is broader than that and the name seems narrow.

 

Exactamundo! Perfectly stated.

 

Again... I'll certainly enjoy the book, but the title does not describe the content... as far as I can tell at this point. "Modern Action Hero" with a genre supplement that is "Dark Champions" seems much more appropriate.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I was under the impression that wrapping all the modern action-adventure material into the Dark Champions name was basically a shameless effort to trick the "Punisher Champions" crowd into buying Danger International/Action Hero material, so they could actually make a profit on it ( unlike Star Hero :( ).

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

What's in a name? A first impression. Honestly, if I didn't lurk on the boards here, I doubt I'd have even picked this up to flip through it in the store.

 

When I first heard about it, I certainly expected costumed people beating up badguys in the shadows. The "Champions" part of the name did lead me to expect it to be some sort of supers supplement, even if a low powered one. Now that I've found it's going to have plenty of CSI, Tom Clancy, and James Bond kinds of stuff in it, it's gone to number one with a bullet on my HERO wish list.

 

As Bob suggested up near the top, I like Action HERO. If nothing else, even a subtitle might be helpful.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Even the name itself' date=' with "Champions" right there for all to see to associate it with the company's superhero line, suggests very strongly that this is going to be about costumed vigilantes and visceral superheroes[/quote']Exactly! 'Champions' suggests some form of costumed superheros.

 

I won't lose any sleep over it, and my guess is that it won't cost much (if anything) in sales [note to self: based on that, discussing name changes is moot - if it doesn't lower profits, it's not important from the business perspective]. . .but I still don't care for it.

 

Dark Champions used to mean gritty, street-level superheros. Now it means Modern Action Hero. :thumbdown

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

The name is as good as any proposed with the exception of the confusion factor, I have been a die hard HERO player from the beginning and really got into it with FH and DI. That said I only bought Dark Champions last year because I always thought it was just a supers thing (what can I say I saw the cover with a daredevil / punisher hybrid and read the first line on the back "This is the ultimate source book for the twilight world of vigilante superheroes who walk the line between justice and vengeance!" and looked no further, eye for an eye came along which did actually go far towards making DC the successor to Danger International but I saw Dark Champions and never even looked.

 

So it took me nearly 20 years to buy Dark Champions because I thought it was just a Champions supplement, I fear the same for the new edition. Of course I'll by it but how many will assume it is for Champions.

 

All I hope at this point is that the cover resembles GURPS SPEC OPS, or WW2 and doesn't even have a hint of spandex. A big subtitle of something like A game of intrigue, espionage and military action would also be a good idea too. Maybe we could get Arnold to stand next to it holding an M60 just to make the point.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Well, I'll start right off by saying that the name really isn't a factor to me, but I never owned the previous Dark Champions, because I really didn't start Hero Games until the Big Blue Book.

 

That being said, I was disappointed to hear that this new Dark Champions is not going to focus on superhuman agents in any significant way. When I heard about this book, I was thinking Daredevil, Nightwing, Batman, and the Watchmen.

 

I agree with a lot of the others here who say that if the book is going to just be about modern "normal human" agents, then it should be called Danger International, Modern Hero, or something similar.

 

With all this being said, I might be picking up the old version of Dark Champions for comparison.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

The name is as good as any proposed with the exception of the confusion factor
Exactly! The name Champions is associated with superheros.

 

Again, I don't think DOJ will lose sales over the name, so it's not a 'bad' decision - just one that I don't care for.

 

I took a look in FREd last night, p.8 under Genre:

 

"Dark Champions: Quasi-realistic, "street-level" vigilante/action hero roleplaying"

 

So apparently the change was intended from when DOJ took over. (shrug)

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Exactly! The name Champions is associated with superheros.

 

Again, I don't think DOJ will lose sales over the name, so it's not a 'bad' decision - just one that I don't care for.

I disagree somewhat, and for the above-quoted reason: the name Champions is associated with superheroes, and so logically Dark Champions becomes associated with dark superheroes. DOJ will have to overcome that association and assumption to reach the new target audience for DC.
I took a look in FREd last night, p.8 under Genre:

 

"Dark Champions: Quasi-realistic, "street-level" vigilante/action hero roleplaying"

 

So apparently the change was intended from when DOJ took over. (shrug)

This, likely, being yet another reason to stick with Dark Champions for the title.
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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I disagree somewhat' date=' and for the above-quoted reason: the name [i']Champions[/i] is associated with superheroes, and so logically Dark Champions becomes associated with dark superheroes. DOJ will have to overcome that association and assumption to reach the new target audience for DC.
I certainly could be wrong on that, and if so, the name should be changed. I'm betting that DOJ has a better feel for the overall market than any of us individually.
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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I certainly could be wrong on that' date=' and if so, the name should be changed. I'm betting that DOJ has a better feel for the overall market than any of us individually.[/quote'] I think you're probably right. And I certainly hope so.
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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

It's my understanding that Dark Champions was always meant to refer to street level, modern day action adventure type stuff, rather than just the Batman/Daredevil/Punisher genre. Apparently Harlick/Peterson/et al edited the original DC into the street level supers version, leaving the more modern action adventure aspects for the Eye For An Eye book. Now that Steve has control, he's making DC what it was originally intended to be.

 

I may be wrong, though.

 

PS. Put me down for a vote to change the name as well.

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Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Here's what I'd always assumed (and am likley wrong about)...

 

The original game was CHAMPIONS, followed by D.I. and Justice Inc. It wasn't until 4th edition that they started to seperate out the system from the genres. By that time, they'd Published DARK CHAMPIONS to capitalize on the name CHAMPIONS. After all, "Hero System" was not a bankable name yet. You push a product by name association in marketing. Champions was an established entity.

 

I imagine the new product is named simply in keeping with the previous editions and no particular desire to re-invent the name.

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