Should this be called Dark Champions?

[Toadmaster]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Blue, nope, DC was a 4th ed product meaning that it came out after The HERO system was a product of its own, so DC was published to support the generic HERO rules, or more likely the BBB (Champs). Espionage, Danger Itnl, Justice Inc, Fantasy HERO and Champions were all 3rd ed products which is where each genre came with its own set of rules. Fantasy HERO and Champions were the only ones to make it into 4th ed.

 

Archer, I've never heard that version but it does make sense that DC was meant to take the place of DI, I never understood why the pre DoJ HERO came out with all the other genres and never re-did JI and DI.

[Blue]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I *am* misinformation king! That's all just what I'd assumed.

 

I had a multi-year layoff from gaming. It started within months of buying the 1st edition of BBB, and ended with the coming of 5e. That whole period is is just a wasteful blur.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Archer' date=' I've never heard that version but it does make sense that DC was meant to take the place of DI, I never understood why the pre DoJ HERO came out with all the other genres and never re-did JI and DI.[/quote']

 

It may have been on another thread. I seem to recall it coming from Steve Long.

 

If it helps to conceptualize DC, think of it as being modern day pulp adventures. The pulps had everything: superheroes, hard boiled detectives, street level vigilantes, international explorers, espionage, military adventure, science fiction, police and crime stories... all of which are incredibly easy to update to modern day and put under the heading of Dark Champions. If you want to get technical, Danger International was the roleplaying game of modern adventure during the cold war 80's, with occasional forays into post holocaust and Star Hero type SF.

[Beetle]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

[Mike Myers-Linda Richmond]

 

Welcome to "Coffee Talk." Here's a topic. The new Dark Champions is neither "Dark" nor "Champions." Discuss.

 

[/Mike Myers-Linda Richmond]

[JmOz]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

It may have been on another thread. I seem to recall it coming from Steve Long.

 

If it helps to conceptualize DC, think of it as being modern day pulp adventures. The pulps had everything: superheroes, hard boiled detectives, street level vigilantes, international explorers, espionage, military adventure, science fiction, police and crime stories... all of which are incredibly easy to update to modern day and put under the heading of Dark Champions. If you want to get technical, Danger International was the roleplaying game of modern adventure during the cold war 80's, with occasional forays into post holocaust and Star Hero type SF.

 

Interesting Idea, but here is the problem I have with it: By using the term "Dark" it automaticaly gives you the idea of a gritty world. So something like a Bond like adventure should not be included, while something cyber hero would.

[Peregrine]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

It may have been on another thread. I seem to recall it coming from Steve Long.

 

If it helps to conceptualize DC, think of it as being modern day pulp adventures. The pulps had everything: superheroes, hard boiled detectives, street level vigilantes, international explorers, espionage, military adventure, science fiction, police and crime stories... all of which are incredibly easy to update to modern day and put under the heading of Dark Champions. If you want to get technical, Danger International was the roleplaying game of modern adventure during the cold war 80's, with occasional forays into post holocaust and Star Hero type SF.

Hear, hear! There's a lot being said on various threads about making this book "realistic". I, for one, would rather see this exactly as Archer described it - modern pulps. Equal shrift given to the full spectrum of the relevant power scale, rather than focusing on the lower end.

[Vondy]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I think "I like it" is more in play than "name recognition." Most people who would recognize the name associate it with comic book vigilantes and street level super-heroes, not more realistic or modern settings and situations. Indeed, "danger international" and "Justice Inc." would be better from a "name recognition" standpoint, if indeed, it will include non-superheroic genre material.

 

Its definately not Dark Champions, but at the same time, what to call it?

 

Oh well, Steve will call it Dark Champions (the inclusion of the name champions alone brands it as being related to other Champions genre products, and not non-supers genres) no matter what we say.

 

Hard Boiled Hero?

Street Hero?

Action Hero?

 

I actually like that last one...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Hear' date=' hear! There's a lot being said on various threads about making this book "realistic". I, for one, would rather see this exactly as Archer described it - modern pulps. Equal shrift given to the full spectrum of the relevant power scale, rather than focusing on the lower end.[/quote']

 

Yep, there is a definite need for rules that let you adjust the cinematic factor. Fairly low for stuff like "Law and Order HERO," much higher for "Equilibrium HERO."

[rjcurrie]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

As for someone who mentioned the Danger International name, I believe the current plan is to use that as the title of a new spy sub-genre book.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I don't agree with the idea that DC is Pulp, regardless of the time period Justice Inc (or what ever they decide to call the new pulp hero) should be covering that topic, my assumption was that DC would be taking the more realistic approach to the HERO rules leaving Champions and JI to pick up the more fantastic or cinematic elements. Not to say DC shouldn't include some of that I just ddn't think it was the focus.

 

Then again I could always be wrong (A pox on you for suggesting such a thing )

[Guest Dr.Unpossible]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I'd have to say I would Like to see the book called "Modern Hero" or some such title as well.

 

I still feel burned by picking up "Champions" and realising it was covered the entire Super Hero genre. And then had to wait and buy a second

"Champions Universe"

 

The name Champions I think is safe to say, associated with a particular setting, as opposed to a genre as a whole. Same with Dark Champions. Dark Champions is a particular setting. Not so much a genre spanning book that covers gritty modern street level campaigns.

 

P.S don't get me wrong. I love my Champion books now, and I love ya Steve and DOJ. My beef was I had a certain expectation based on the title of the book. It was a great book, but Champions Universe is what I really wanted.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Not to sound rude, but personally I think if you buy a book just based on a title without reading any kind of description then you really don't have any right to complain that its contents don't meet your expectations.

 

Rod

[Toadmaster]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

In general I would agree about knowing what you are buying but Champions is a big title, I can see how someone could buy the new and improved Champions without really checking it out. Be kind of like walking in to a store and seeing all these new D&D books, a well known title from your past, but when you get it home you find out they changed all the rules.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I'm less concerned with people buying the book based on the title and being disappointed than with people seeing the title, either remembering what the first version was about or making the wrong assumption based on the words Dark and Champions, and not buying it because what they'd really rather play is straight action-adventure, not costumed vigilantes.

[Agent X]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Not to sound rube, but personally I think if you buy a book just based on a title without reading any kind of description then you really don't have any right to complain that its contents don't meet your expectations.

 

Rod

That's not how the real world works. Sometimes you pick up a book, get excited by the find, and you "think" you know what's in it.

 

The funny thing about guys who don't like the Champions genre book for me is that they are missing a great tool. I am an experienced Champions gamer and gm and I use that book in a frequency up there with FRED and USPD.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

That's not how the real world works. Sometimes you pick up a book, get excited by the find, and you "think" you know what's in it.

 

The funny thing about guys who don't like the Champions genre book for me is that they are missing a great tool. I am an experienced Champions gamer and gm and I use that book in a frequency up there with FRED and USPD.

 

Thats why I bought it. I will likely never run or play another supers game (never say never though) but I found it had enough stuff useful for other genres to make it worth getting.

[Beetle]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Street Hero?

I like that one, but it might make people think it's "Homeless HERO"

[zornwil]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Rather than Modern Hero, I'd call it Action Hero.

 

I agree with the rest of the comments: the old Dark Champions was closer in content and (to a lesser extent) tone to what's now Dark Champions: The Animated Series. I'm rather concerned that people will pick up the new DC expecting something like the old one and walk away disappointed, or avoid the new DC for the same reason (thus my comment in the other thread about staying as far as possible from the "costumed vigilantes" image with the cover art).

 

I can think of one additional reason to keep with Dark Champions for the current book, though: it's already in the catalog under that title, meaning it's probably too late to change now even if Steve did decide to do it.

I'm with Bob, to me it is Action HERO. I think Dark Champions is pretty misleading. I didn't even read the original book (sorry Steve!) but the expectation is pretty "clear" that it's some sort of grim and gritty Champions book...but it's not! Well, at least we know, and I think most people who browse at the bookstore will get it immediately. But what about uneducated mail order people? Lots (and lots and lots) of HERO players never participate here or in similar forums - I didn't used to. So I think it's not an illegitimate issue. End of the day...shrug, it is what it is and life goes on...

[JmOz]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

The Sad thing is Bob according to Steve the HoJ will be on the cover, making it by cover lean towards the what I CALL Dark Champions

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

The Sad thing is Bob according to Steve the HoJ will be on the cover' date=' making it by cover lean towards the what I CALL Dark Champions[/quote'] My (possibly mistaken) impression was that Harby will be just a small part of the cover. Nonetheless, someone suggested that a front-cover subtext identify the book as "action-adventure role-playing using the Hero System", and I strongly agree -- even if my impression is right, and Harby's even at the far left of the picture (putting him on the back of the wrap-around).

[Talon]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I'm not worried about people who pick up the book and are disappointed, I'm worried about people who DON'T pick up the book because "Champions = Superheroes", an association that is fairly well-known within the gaming community. Like many others apparently, I had ignored this forum and all DC topics for a while because I thought it was just a superhero sub-genre. I figured it out eventually...but why should I have to? I think the name it will affect sales unless Steve and crew spend some time and money marketing the facts. "Dark Champions, it's not just for superheroes anymore!"

[Just Joe]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I just found out what DC was about tonight after stumbling upon the information on another thread. I will almost certainly buy it now. I had minimal interest in it when I thought it was about supers, as the name certainly suggests.

 

I am disappointed to have missed out on the chance to say what I wanted to see in the book because I thought it was going to be something entirely different.

[Agemegos]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Like many others apparently' date=' I had ignored this forum and all DC topics for a while because I thought it was just a superhero sub-genre.[/quote']

 

So had I. In the months I've been browsing the HERO boards I have always assumed 'Dark Champions' was for stuff like the Punisher. And now that I have discovered my mistake I feel distinctly disoriented. I use Dark Champions for James Bond genre espionage? For contemporary action adventure?

 

What's dark about that? Why 'Champions' rather than 'Hero'?

 

Weird title!

 

LIke Just Joe, I am disappointed that I missed out on an opportunity to provide some input into the product. But now at least I know what I want to buy. If it weren't for this discussion board I wouldn't even have flipped through it in the shop: I like heroic adventure, not all this morally unsound 'dark' stuff.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

The Sad thing is Bob according to Steve the HoJ will be on the cover' date=' making it by cover lean towards the what I CALL Dark Champions[/quote']

 

Yep, I guess he's on the cover, nice artwork but not exactly going to get across that Dark Champions isn't just street level supers anymore. I sure hope DoJ is smarter than we are because if DC flops and doesn't get support like StarHero I'm going to be really put off the HERO line. At least the small print on the back cover starts out with modern gaming for those that get that far, I've counted a dozen or so posters thus far who didn't know that DC was not a supers only supplement including a recent thread about modern gamiing. Not a good start.

 

Storn if you read this, the art on the cover is great I was just hoping for less supers and more the rest of the genre that is supposed to be covered by this book. This in no way is meant to put down your work.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I think the title may well be confusing to some people - but then I've met at least a couple of gamers very recently who still thought that HERO System itself was just a superheroes game until I let them know otherwise. Therefore when DC comes out I'm going to do my bit to allay the confusion by telling every gamer I know what it's all about and how awesome it is (assuming it is awesome of course, but given the standard of Steve's 5th edition books so far I think that's probably a safe assumption).