Should this be called Dark Champions?

[steriaca]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Why the title Dark Champions? Because it was avalable, and sounded better than "Modern Hero" or less wordy than "Let's Crame All The Modern Day Stuff Which Is Not Superheros Into One Genra Book Hero".

[JmOz]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Why Dark Champions?

 

Because the name had Name recognition as one of the greatest champions books ever

 

Problem is that they are (IMO) taking it to something it was not, and put simply it will confuse 9 people for every one it does not.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

The Harbinger may be on the cover, but he sure as hell doesn't *look* "superhero"ish.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

The Harbinger may be on the cover' date=' but he sure as hell doesn't *look* "superhero"ish.[/quote']

 

I thought that too. The cover really doesn't scream "superheroes" at me.

[ChuckB]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Steve's right on both counts regarding brand recognition and to the fact that he's the one who wrote the first book and he owns the company.

 

 

Dark Champions is a catchy name and, IMO, "Modern Hero" is a terrible name. Very blah.

 

Honestly, if you saw a book called Modern Hero, would it really catch your interest ?

 

A new Danger:International book might not be a bad idea down the road, it could incorporate espionage, real-world practicalities, etc.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Steve's right on both counts regarding brand recognition and to the fact that he's the one who wrote the first book and he owns the company.

 

I don't think either of those points are in question. Yep, he wrote it and owns the company. He could call it "The HERO Guide to Spam and Other Canned Meats" if he wanted to. Unfortunately, that title also fails to give a very clear idea of what's between the covers.

 

Dark Champions is a catchy name and' date=' IMO, "Modern Hero" is a terrible name. Very blah.[/quote']

 

Catchy it may be, but for some of us, misleading as well. As popular as HERO is, there are plenty of people with little familiarity with it. I've really only been interested for a year and a half or so, and I'm still learning new stuff all the time.

 

Honestly' date=' if you saw a book called Modern Hero, would it really catch your interest ?[/quote']

 

Probably not, but if I didn't already know what was in it, Dark Champions wouldn't either.

[Just Joe]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Ditto on everything Greatwyrm said (except for the autobiographical parts).

 

 

Honestly' date=' if you saw a book called Modern Hero, would it really catch your interest ?[/quote']

 

It would catch my interest, yes. Nevertheless, I suspect a name could have been found that was catchier than "Modern Hero" and less misleading than "Dark Champions".

[Metaphysician]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Action HERO??

[Geryon]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I really don't think the name is going to be that much of a problem. The cover says a lot, and what it says is most definitely NOT supers. Even people who go "oh, the word 'champions' is in the title" and assume that it is a superhero book will still probably read the back cover or possibly browse through the book. I'm sure after witnessing this thread Steve & Friends will be sure the back cover accurately explains all that DC is going to be.

 

Overall, I think NOT calling it Dark Champions (and thus getting all the name recognition, plus its just a much better name than action hero) would produce more problems than calling it DC. Neither solution is perfect but one is definitely much better than the other.

[KA.]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I hope that this works out well for DOJ, but I do see some real problems with it.

 

1) The Current Book - Lots of people will think this applies to Superheroes, and won't give it a look.

 

2) The Current Book - Lots of people who want to do a Military, Espionage, or Mystery campaign, will not realize that Hero has a great book supporting these genres.

 

3) Future Books - Even though there is some overlap between "Modern" and "Street Level Superheroes", they are two distinct things. If DOJ wants to do a "Street Level Superheroes" book at some point, what the heck are they going to call it?

 

And now the other side . . .

 

1) Not everyone shopping in the FLGS knows anything about the history of the Hero system, or what Dark Champions is "supposed" to be. It is a catchy name for a cool book with a great cover. It could sell.

 

2) If you want to do "Street Level Superheroes", what do you really need?

All the Powers are right there in Fred.

If you want general information on running a supers campaign, then you can get Champions.

And it sounds like all the Firearms, Forensics, etc. information you need, will be in the Dark Champions book.

So it isn't exactly "deceptive".

Dark Champions will have the necessary material to "darken up" a Champions campaign, as well as run several other genres. Not a bad deal.

 

3) If there are no plans of a "Street Level Superhero" sourcebook, why waste the name?

 

KA. (Who has looked at life from both sides now.)

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

3) Future Books - Even though there is some overlap between "Modern" and "Street Level Superheroes"' date=' they are two distinct things. If DOJ wants to do a "Street Level Superheroes" book at some point, what the heck are they going to call it?[/quote']

 

That has already been answered, it's on the 2005 release schedule:

 

Dark Champions: The Animated Series: The first subgenre book for Dark Champions takes a look at the less grim side of vigilante crimefighting: caped crusaders with vigilante attitudes but an unwillingness to kill; low-powered superhumans who fight street crime instead of world-threatening supervillains; "theme" villains with clever costumes but psychotic minds. It's a perfect blending of Champions and Dark Champions!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

The Animated Series

 

Probably just me, but this is a total turn-off, for me. It sounds campy and silly, and is not at all what I would consider buying... though it sounds like it is supposed to be addressing the Nightwing/Daredevil type genre... I'd never pick it up.

 

The Animated Series makes it sound like this Teen Titans GO! crap which I can't stand. (Or the Power Puff Girls, which I really like, but would never try to play as an RPG.)

 

To each their own, but I'd have a tough time buying anything with that subtitle.

[JmOz]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Exactly:

 

If I was running the show I would handle this problem as follows:

 

Name the setting something that will get attention, probably Action Hero from everything I have heard (I like the XXXX Hero nameing scheme)

 

 

Dark Champions would be a duel sub genre book for both Action Hero & Champions.

 

Danger International would be half Setting half sub genre on spys

 

Pulp Hero would be the pulp book

 

Justice Inc would be a setting book

[zornwil]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Probably just me, but this is a total turn-off, for me. It sounds campy and silly, and is not at all what I would consider buying... though it sounds like it is supposed to be addressing the Nightwing/Daredevil type genre... I'd never pick it up.

 

The Animated Series makes it sound like this Teen Titans GO! crap which I can't stand. (Or the Power Puff Girls, which I really like, but would never try to play as an RPG.)

 

To each their own, but I'd have a tough time buying anything with that subtitle.

I agree with this in terms of general perception of the book, although I like the Batman and other such "Animated Series" enough I'd want this book on those merits - but I would go into it assuming it was light and nothing at all like Daredevil-level or (low) Punisher-level or MOST SPECIFICALLY Wild Dog level. I really liked Wild Dog as I think it best represents the true street-level superhero.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I'm still trying to see how someone could look at the cover and *not* think this is action-adventure. I mean, the guy on the front looks like a decked out special forces guy on first glance.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Probably just me, but this is a total turn-off, for me. It sounds campy and silly, and is not at all what I would consider buying... though it sounds like it is supposed to be addressing the Nightwing/Daredevil type genre... I'd never pick it up.

 

The Animated Series makes it sound like this Teen Titans GO! crap which I can't stand. (Or the Power Puff Girls, which I really like, but would never try to play as an RPG.)

 

To each their own, but I'd have a tough time buying anything with that subtitle.

Whereas the first thing it brings to mind for me is Batman: The Animated Series.

[JmOz]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Which is still a far cry from the grittier Batman stories, Punisher, Daredevil, etc... That it sounds like it is suppose to cover...

[Toadmaster]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I'm still trying to see how someone could look at the cover and *not* think this is action-adventure. I mean' date=' the guy on the front looks like a decked out special forces guy on first glance.[/quote']

 

He looks like the Punisher with a bad attitude, but it is alot better than having the old Harbinger on the cover. Special forces guys rarely wear capes (ok, maybe its just a trench coat).

 

The point is if DoJ really wanted to do all it could to get the message out that this is not the old (mostly just for supers) DC they should have put something on the cover to show that, I think that everybody who has been around HERO for awhile instantly recognized the Harbinger even with his new duds. Yes its a great picture but it doesn't say "realistic" campaigns inside, it says bad a**, no code vs killing superhero roleplaying. I mean we see people on the boards weekly saying they didn't know what Dark Champions was going to be. I'm tempted to start a poll under the general discussions area but I don't want to stir this up further, there isn't anything to be done now. My guess is we'll get DC and all the non super supplements we are waiting for will just dribble out like StarHERO has due to "lack of interest".

 

GURPS 4h ed is due out any time now, it will be interesting to see what effect (if any) it has on this line, be nice to see DC come out strong but I'm not hopeful at this point. Don't get me wrong I think it will be a great book but I think sales to the non supers crowd will be weak. Hope I'm wrong.

[Storn]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Yes its a great picture but it doesn't say "realistic" campaigns inside

 

Does Die Hard fall under the perveiw of "realistic"? In some ways that movie is very realistic, in others, not so much. Realism in adventure fiction, movie, tv... gaming... is a really nebulous thing.

 

I thought I would speak up about the artwork and where my head was at when I did it. I did try and thread the needle between presenting an image of action, espionage, counter terrorism icon and a dark, avenging, vigilante icon. Yup, tried to get the image in between champions and danger international.

 

There are ONLY two things that make this cover have a superheroic bent. The angle. And a tiny little 1/2 moon on HoJ's mask UNDER nightvision goggles. Okay three... computerized coloring *might* say superheroes because it is the comic cover standard these days. but I tried to keep the colors muted.

 

Everything else that HoJo has has been researched by me. The p90, the vest, the rappel harness, the two Beretta 92s (yup, they be 92s under all that speed shooting paraphenalia... would da thunk it), the mark II gerber knife strapped to the calf. Fedora, overcoat? All this crap can be bought... some of it, probably would have to be black market... but the point is, that this is modern day equipment. It is realistic equipment.

 

There are no supervillians in the image...

 

To my mind I leaned heavily towards the Action, Modern Hero and stayed away from super vigilantes.

 

But it ain't my job to interpert.... it is the buying public's (if approved by the art director ). I just wanted y'all to know that I really sweated this one. I poured a lot of thought into it. And I took a lot of the earlier comments to heart, all the while, trying to maintain and match the mandate that came from Hero Games. I usually don't crow about my art publically, but I think I bridged several sub-genres pretty damn well.

[sbarron]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

While I would also like to see the name changed to maintain consistency in the Hero vs Champions lines, I don't think it will have much impact on sales. The cover is very dark and very cool, and the book is really thick. I think most gamers who play Hero will at least pick it up to look through, even if they don't think it will be of use for their non-Champions game. In doing so, they will either figure out what the book is about, or will see the gun list and (like the original) decide it is a must have for their modern action game.

 

As for pulling in non-hero gamers, I don't know. The cover should still help attract attention, even if the title confuses the unititiated.

[JmOz]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Does Die Hard fall under the perveiw of "realistic"? In some ways that movie is very realistic, in others, not so much. Realism in adventure fiction, movie, tv... gaming... is a really nebulous thing.

 

I thought I would speak up about the artwork and where my head was at when I did it. I did try and thread the needle between presenting an image of action, espionage, counter terrorism icon and a dark, avenging, vigilante icon. Yup, tried to get the image in between champions and danger international.

 

There are ONLY two things that make this cover have a superheroic bent. The angle. And a tiny little 1/2 moon on HoJ's mask UNDER nightvision goggles. Okay three... computerized coloring *might* say superheroes because it is the comic cover standard these days. but I tried to keep the colors muted.

 

Everything else that HoJo has has been researched by me. The p90, the vest, the rappel harness, the two Beretta 92s (yup, they be 92s under all that speed shooting paraphenalia... would da thunk it), the mark II gerber knife strapped to the calf. Fedora, overcoat? All this crap can be bought... some of it, probably would have to be black market... but the point is, that this is modern day equipment. It is realistic equipment.

 

There are no supervillians in the image...

 

To my mind I leaned heavily towards the Action, Modern Hero and stayed away from super vigilantes.

 

But it ain't my job to interpert.... it is the buying public's (if approved by the art director ). I just wanted y'all to know that I really sweated this one. I poured a lot of thought into it. And I took a lot of the earlier comments to heart, all the while, trying to maintain and match the mandate that came from Hero Games. I usually don't crow about my art publically, but I think I bridged several sub-genres pretty damn well.

 

And you did a wonderful job with it as usual (not my favorite of your work, but top 3). However as you said (and I BOLDED) you were dealing with a certain mandate, as such consider the complaints vs that mandate instead of your excelent work.

[Storn]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

And you did a wonderful job with it as usual (not my favorite of your work' date=' but top 3). However as you said (and I BOLDED) you were dealing with a certain mandate, as such consider the complaints vs that mandate instead of your excelent work.[/quote']

 

Mandate is a bad word usage on my part.

 

There is ALWAYS a mandate when illustrating. That is why it is called illustration, instead of art. Illustration comes from the word: Illuminate, as in Illuminated lettering. Which SUPPORTS the written word. Illustration supports and/or sells. To do such, its got to meet criteria of some sort...

 

So, don't take my statement as me complaining aobut the mandate... far from it. While it was a tricky... it was a fun challenge.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

There is ALWAYS a mandate when illustrating. That is why it is called illustration' date=' instead of art.[/quote']

 

I don't care what you call it, Storn. You just rock!

[JmOz]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

Mandate is a bad word usage on my part.

 

There is ALWAYS a mandate when illustrating. That is why it is called illustration, instead of art. Illustration comes from the word: Illuminate, as in Illuminated lettering. Which SUPPORTS the written word. Illustration supports and/or sells. To do such, its got to meet criteria of some sort...

 

So, don't take my statement as me complaining aobut the mandate... far from it. While it was a tricky... it was a fun challenge.

 

I realise that (well not all of the gramerical, but that you always work from what they tell you), and did not take it as you complaining in the least

 

I don't think that it would be possible to have HoJ on the cover and still please me. This was a dissisiun made by Steve (I Beleive) that I just disagree with, as I disagree with the name of the book, do not take it as anything else. I thinik it is important that people can Intelegently disagree with things, and to realise the level of responsibility others have. I am not mad by the choice, I just feel it was the wrong one.

 

This has turned into a little bit of random rambling, but to sum up

 

I did not think you were upset with the mandate, I know you almost always have them in your line of work. I just think that if the picture was of someguy in a tank top it would be better (Die Hard type of thing)

[Toadmaster]

Re: Should this be called Dark Champions?

 

I realise that (well not all of the gramerical, but that you always work from what they tell you), and did not take it as you complaining in the least

 

I don't think that it would be possible to have HoJ on the cover and still please me. This was a dissisiun made by Steve (I Beleive) that I just disagree with, as I disagree with the name of the book, do not take it as anything else. I think it is important that people can Intelegently disagree with things, and to realise the level of responsibility others have. I am not mad by the choice, I just feel it was the wrong one.

 

This has turned into a little bit of random rambling, but to sum up

 

I did not think you were upset with the mandate, I know you almost always have them in your line of work. I just think that if the picture was of someguy in a tank top it would be better (Die Hard type of thing)

 

Well said, I agree that Storn did an excellent job of making the HoJ look as little like a street super as possible, but it is still the Harbinger. Storn this really isn't about your cover its been DoJ's attitude so far, the modern genre is being squeezed into a Champions supplement, the line following it is primarily of use to supers (or at least crime fighting), the first subgenre is again supers based (the animated series), there is not one DC product on the line up yet that is of no use to supers, yet we (modern genre players) are just supposed to believe that DC is going to magically leap out and let the modern genre players out there know its not just a champions supplement when we have past experience and current examples that this is not so (people keep showing up on the HERO website saying DC is the modern book? if they do that here I can imagine what happens on non HERO websites).

 

If I saw DoJ take one positive step towards enlightening customers that DC has had a major change and now is targeted towards non supers campaigns as well I'd be happy but even here on their own company website I have yet to see the company make any steps top get the word out. The only people doing this are cranks like myself. Its not just the title or the cover, its the lack of action to get the word out that bothers me, Dark champions with a very not super hero based cover, a subtitle so The COVER and not the back of the book tells shoppers about the change, even a non-super supplement following it up (Danger International maybe, its been almost 20 years) which could grab attention, "wow, a spy book, hmmm, what's this a Dark Champions source book? I thought that was superheroes, lets take a look at that too". Something to show Steve and DoJ were serious about supporting the non-supers side of DC.

 

Anyway I'm just starting ramble and whine.

 

Edited by Toadmaster for excessive grumpyness