What am I missing, Instant Stand?

[Demonsong]

Ok, if a character is knocked down they must spend half a phase standing up. There is no skill that allows some one to stand up as a zero phase action. If you have flight or teleport you can spend 5 points for position shift and stand as a zero phase action, but characters with running can not buy position shift because it is not an extraordinary movement power. Is this correct or am I on drugs again?

 

What about character that have a character concept that it just makes since to have this power? Martial artist that can Kip-up, Cat (or other animal) based characters that should be able to jump up in a flash, Speedsters with insane amounts of running? Do you buy 1†in flight with position shift -0 only for standing?

 

Thanks

[Trebuchet]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

Breakfall allows standing as a 0 Phase action.

[Blue]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

Yup. And any time I knock my players down they LOVE pointing that out. Lousy players!

[Magmarock]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

I'd like to know what page (in FReD) I can find this rule. The description of the skill Breakfall (page 33) does not mention this use of the skill.

 

My brother tells me there is something like this in The Ultimate Martial Artist, but that is for martial arts oriented campaigns only. Besides, why would anyone pay 5 points for an adder if you could use a 3 point skill to stand up for 0 Phase?

 

 

Mags

[JJR]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

I'd like to know what page (in FReD) I can find this rule. The description of the skill Breakfall (page 33) does not mention this use of the skill.

The rule on page 33 states the character can make a roll to land on his feet after knockback or knockdown. If he succeeds he takes no damage and does not waste a half-phase getting up.

 

Besides, why would anyone pay 5 points for an adder if you could use a 3 point skill to stand up for 0 Phase?

Because skill rolls can fail and adders can put included with the power inside of power frameworks, basically making them free.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

I'd like to know what page (in FReD) I can find this rule. The description of the skill Breakfall (page 33) does not mention this use of the skill.

 

My brother tells me there is something like this in The Ultimate Martial Artist, but that is for martial arts oriented campaigns only. Besides, why would anyone pay 5 points for an adder if you could use a 3 point skill to stand up for 0 Phase?

Per the FAQ:

 

Breakfall

 

Q: If a character is prone for some reason other than falling, being Thrown, or taking Knockback (perhaps he was lying on the ground resting), can he still use Breakfall to get to his feet without taking a Half Phase Action?

 

A: Yes.

 

Q: Can a character, with a single Breakfall roll, halve the damage from a Throw and prevent himself from losing his footing?

 

A: No. The first Breakfall roll only prevents damage; it does not allow a character to keep his feet as well. He can, however, make a second, separate, Breakfall roll to get to his feet without using a Half-Phase Action; see UMA 113.

 

Q: If a character takes Knockback, and fails his Breakfall roll to avoid the damage, can he on his next Phase make a Breakfall roll to stand up as a Zero-Phase Action?

 

A: Yes.

[Magmarock]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

Per the FAQ:

 

Breakfall

 

Q: If a character is prone for some reason other than falling, being Thrown, or taking Knockback (perhaps he was lying on the ground resting), can he still use Breakfall to get to his feet without taking a Half Phase Action?

 

A: Yes.

 

Q: Can a character, with a single Breakfall roll, halve the damage from a Throw and prevent himself from losing his footing?

 

A: No. The first Breakfall roll only prevents damage; it does not allow a character to keep his feet as well. He can, however, make a second, separate, Breakfall roll to get to his feet without using a Half-Phase Action; see UMA 113.

 

Q: If a character takes Knockback, and fails his Breakfall roll to avoid the damage, can he on his next Phase make a Breakfall roll to stand up as a Zero-Phase Action?

 

A: Yes.

 

Ah, I see. It's in the FAQ, not in FReD.

 

The bit from the UMA, as I already mentioned, was only suggested for use in a MA campaign, not for your standard superhero genre where super powers are more prevalent.

 

Our group has not been using this rule, in fact I wasn't even aware of it, until my brother told me about the UMA reference. I am interested in hearing from other people about how using this rule has affected their games and especially their combat.

 

Mags

[lemming]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

I always allowed a seperate skill for getting up as a zero phase. I had talked Sam Bell into it since I didn't want a skill that allowed my brick to land on his feet, I wanted him to plow through whatever. I just didn't want to be slowed down getting back up.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

Our group has not been using this rule, in fact I wasn't even aware of it, until my brother told me about the UMA reference. I am interested in hearing from other people about how using this rule has affected their games and especially their combat.

 

Mags

It's a rule I've found quite useful. Most character in my campaign that have this skill are either martial artists, trained in HTH combat or are gymnasts or acrobats as part of their concept.

 

As far as the mechanics go, it works quite smoothly. Somebody gets knocked down. If they have Breakfall, they roll. If they succeed, they stand up and have a full phase. If they fail, they stand up and have a half phase. If they only fail by one, I'll give them the option of standing up, or remaining prone and having a full phase, but that last part is just my own rule, not official.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

Ah, I see. It's in the FAQ, not in FReD.

 

The bit from the UMA, as I already mentioned, was only suggested for use in a MA campaign, not for your standard superhero genre where super powers are more prevalent.

 

Our group has not been using this rule, in fact I wasn't even aware of it, until my brother told me about the UMA reference. I am interested in hearing from other people about how using this rule has affected their games and especially their combat.

The first and third FAQs I posted still pretty much answer the original question even if one's campaign doesn't use optional/expanded rules from UMA. It is still quite clear Breakfall can be used to stand as a 0 Phase action, no matter what the cause of the character being prone.

[Magmarock]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

The first and third FAQs I posted still pretty much answer the original question even if one's campaign doesn't use optional/expanded rules from UMA. It is still quite clear Breakfall can be used to stand as a 0 Phase action' date=' no matter what the cause of the character being prone.[/quote']

 

I think the initial spirit of the Breakfall skill was to allow the roll to be made at the time that a target is knocked back and only then. If that roll is successfull then fine, the target is left standing (or oriented, if flying). But if that roll fails, then the target must spend a 1/2 Phase to stand (or orient) on their next action.

 

Here's what I meant by asking for feedback on how it affects combat:

 

At one point, back in the day, someone suggested using the Acrobatics skill to be able to flip onto one's feet for 0 Phase action... amazing how suddenly every character took that skill even if it wasn't in concept. This option was dropped pretty quickly after that short-term experiment, once we discovered how it messed up the game balance in combat. No target stayed down after getting hit and so attacks were created more hideous to compensate. Combat got bloodier. The result was not worth the "cool factor" of being able to stand at 0 Phase. Part of the risk of combat is getting knocked down or knocked back... and being vulnerable as a result of the knockback.

 

Breakfall is already a mainstay in almost every PC built. Maybe I'd think differently about it if it were only justified for HtH combatants, but in all reality, Breakfall is powerful enough as it is.

 

Mags

[Trebuchet]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

I think the initial spirit of the Breakfall skill was to allow the roll to be made at the time that a target is knocked back and only then. If that roll is successfull then fine, the target is left standing (or oriented, if flying). But if that roll fails, then the target must spend a 1/2 Phase to stand (or orient) on their next action.

 

Here's what I meant by asking for feedback on how it affects combat:

 

At one point, back in the day, someone suggested using the Acrobatics skill to be able to flip onto one's feet for 0 Phase action... amazing how suddenly every character took that skill even if it wasn't in concept. This option was dropped pretty quickly after that short-term experiment, once we discovered how it messed up the game balance in combat. No target stayed down after getting hit and so attacks were created more hideous to compensate. Combat got bloodier. The result was not worth the "cool factor" of being able to stand at 0 Phase. Part of the risk of combat is getting knocked down or knocked back... and being vulnerable as a result of the knockback.

 

Breakfall is already a mainstay in almost every PC built. Maybe I'd think differently about it if it were only justified for HtH combatants, but in all reality, Breakfall is powerful enough as it is.

That's a problem with the campaign's players and GM, not the system. It's only abusive if it's misused. In our group out of 8 PCs only our two MAs have Breakfall.

 

Players have to recognize that certain design decisions have consequences. If every character buys Missile Deflection, then all the villains are going to end up buying attacks that are non-deflectable such as Entangle or AE attacks. But if only one character has it then there is no need for compensation. Same with Find Weakness. One PC with it is irritating, every member of the team means every villain will have Lack of Weakness. Breakfall or Acrobatics are no different. That's why character concept should trump mere mechanics.

[Magmarock]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

That's a problem with the campaign's players and GM, not the system. It's only abusive if it's misused. In our group out of 8 PCs only our two MAs have Breakfall.

 

Players have to recognize that certain design decisions have consequences. If every character buys Missile Deflection, then all the villains are going to end up buying attacks that are non-deflectable such as Entangle or AE attacks. But if only one character has it then there is no need for compensation. Same with Find Weakness. One PC with it is irritating, every member of the team means every villain will have Lack of Weakness. Breakfall or Acrobatics are no different. That's why character concept should trump mere mechanics.

 

Touche', Trebuchet.

 

But as Steve has said, if you dont' like a rule then don't use it. We don't. And we won't, even though it has been brought to our attention by this thread (and our newest Player). Our game hasn't been hurt by not using this latest definition of Breakfall. I would rather allow anyone who wants it, the option to buy the Breakfall skill in our game and ignore this FAQ declaration (that interestingly enough wasn't deemed important enough to include in the skill description) than to tell people they can't have Breakfall unless they are running a martial artist. In our game Breakfall, as it was originally intended, is a generally accepted superhero skill. I don't think we are ready to designate it a MA skill only.

 

Mags

[Trebuchet]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

Touche', Trebuchet.

 

But as Steve has said, if you dont' like a rule then don't use it. We don't. And we won't, even though it has been brought to our attention by this thread (and our newest Player). Our game hasn't been hurt by not using this latest definition of Breakfall. I would rather allow anyone who wants it, the option to buy the Breakfall skill in our game and ignore this FAQ declaration (that interestingly enough wasn't deemed important enough to include in the skill description) than to tell people they can't have Breakfall unless they are running a martial artist. In our game Breakfall, as it was originally intended, is a generally accepted superhero skill. I don't think we are ready to designate it a MA skill only.

I wouldn't categorize Breakfall as a MA Only skill either. But in our group only the MAs have a character concept that would make Breakfall appropriate. So regardless of the expanded version presented by UMA, we had Breakfall for these two PCs long before UMA was available (Well, for Zl'f anyway. Eagle Eye was designed after 5e UMA came out, but before the player ever saw it. He still purchased it. Now we use some of the UMA rules and maneuvers.) Since virtually every martial art teaches one how to fall and avoid injury, I would think Breakfall is pretty much a given skill for almost any type of MA. (Perhaps not Boxing.) But certainly I could see other character concepts that would justify Breakfall; such as almost any type of speedster or combat teleporter (SFX of instantly popping to his feet.).

 

I happen to think being able to instantly regain one's feet is a pretty cool ability, much seen in kung fu movies and the like. But it's your game, and I'm not going to say you're doing it wrong. As long as you're all comfortable with how you're doing Breakfall that's OK.

[Magmarock]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

"Maybe this will be added when 6th Ed comes out, but I hope not. It should stay an optional rule IMO." -Mags

 

Ah well. Steve did answer. Sort of. In a round about way. Although he didn't answer my question specifically, he did say he created the rule for 5th Ed. Perhaps it will be included officially in 6th Ed... which should make a lot of you guys happy.

 

Damn. Now I'm going to have to limit the use of Breakfall in my campaigns... because with this new ruling, it is too useful compared to other skills and for such a cheap cost. Either that or I could make it cost more.

 

Mags

[Dust Raven]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

Damn. Now I'm going to have to limit the use of Breakfall in my campaigns... because with this new ruling, it is too useful compared to other skills and for such a cheap cost. Either that or I could make it cost more.

 

Mags

Makes me wonder what your opinion of Acrobatics is. It grants you OCV and DCV bonuses in combat.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

"Damn. Now I'm going to have to limit the use of Breakfall in my campaigns... because with this new ruling' date=' it is [i']too[/i] useful compared to other skills and for such a cheap cost. Either that or I could make it cost more.

You can limit it just by requiring a good rationale for any character who wants it. Make any character who wants it justify it.

 

Keep in mind it's still only a Skill. Breakfall is peachy for MAs and speedsters because they typically have the high DEX to make it work. But a typical brick with a DEX 23 will only have a 14- roll; or about a 90.7% chance of making the roll successfully. Even assuming there are no penalties to the roll (and some suggested penalties are given in the Breakfall writeup) it's not a given they'll succeed. In typical melodramatic heroic fashion, it will probably fail when they most need it to work.

[Magmarock]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

Makes me wonder what your opinion of Acrobatics is. It grants you OCV and DCV bonuses in combat.

 

Acrobatics requires an really good roll to get those bonuses. In our group, it is rarely taken and rarely ever used, although our speedster used this skill just last session.

 

As opposed to Breakfall, which can be used every single time knockback is incurred, as long as the target doesn't hit anything. It is lot easier to make this roll, even with the minuses.

 

I talked to my brother about it again today. We are going to open discussion regarding this new rule in our group, but judging from the opinions I've heard already, we'll probably make it a house rule that Breakfall stays as it always worked.

 

My brother also suggested that we allow the Position Shift Adder to be bought with any movement power, and then charge 10 points for it. Then, a PC can take a partial Lim: RSR based on their Breakfall (or Acrobatics) roll. The result is a 0 Phase "Instant Stand" that costs at least 3 points, but that cost is in addition to buying the Breakfall (or Acrobat) skill. Makes good sense to me. Much better than taking an already useful skill and making it a "must have" skill which, frankly, anyone can logically place into their PC's background.

 

Mags

[Magmarock]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

You can limit it just by requiring a good rationale for any character who wants it. Make any character who wants it justify it.

 

That's the problem. They do. Very clever people, these guys.

 

 

Keep in mind it's still only a Skill. Breakfall is peachy for MAs and speedsters because they typically have the high DEX to make it work. But a typical brick with a DEX 23 will only have a 14- roll; or about a 90.7% chance of making the roll successfully. Even assuming there are no penalties to the roll (and some suggested penalties are given in the Breakfall writeup) it's not a given they'll succeed. In typical melodramatic heroic fashion' date=' it will probably fail when they most need it to work. [/quote']

 

My Players have demon dice... I swear!. They always roll low to hit, and high for damage. My dice, are just the opposite. Well, except for my last session, which was freaky. Shamrock, helped a bit.

 

Mags

[Dust Raven]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

Acrobatics requires an really good roll to get those bonuses. In our group, it is rarely taken and rarely ever used, although our speedster used this skill just last session.

 

As opposed to Breakfall, which can be used every single time knockback is incurred, as long as the target doesn't hit anything. It is lot easier to make this roll, even with the minuses.

The thing is, you get worse penalties with Breakfall (in some cases). All you need to do is make your roll with Acrobatics and it's a +1 OCV and your opponent might not get a defensive action because he didn't see it coming. Alternately, you can make your roll each Phase as a 0 Phase Action and gain up to +3 DCV. Assuming you've got the DEX, that's like buy +3 DCV with an 8- Activation, only you can still get some if you roll a little highter and can still use it for OCV Surprise attacks. And backflips if you feel inclined to do so. Personally, I find that Acrobatics is far more useful than Breakfall. That is to say, it has far more uses. Breakfall just lets you get up quick, or keep yourself from going down, but it does those things very well.

[Magmarock]

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

 

The thing is' date=' you get worse penalties with Breakfall (in some cases). All you need to do is make your roll with Acrobatics and it's a +1 OCV and your opponent might not get a defensive action because he didn't see it coming. Alternately, you can make your roll each Phase as a 0 Phase Action and gain up to +3 DCV. Assuming you've got the DEX, that's like buy +3 DCV with an 8- Activation, only you can still get some if you roll a little highter and can still use it for OCV Surprise attacks. And backflips if you feel inclined to do so. Personally, I find that Acrobatics is far more useful than Breakfall. That is to say, it has far more uses. Breakfall just lets you get up quick, or keep yourself from going down, but it does those things very well.[/quote']

 

 

I see your point, but in my group we've always treated the 'surprise factor' as just that- it may work the first few times, but after that your roll had better be real good or it won't work. Another factor is whether the target perceives the attack happening. Also, the very character that would take Acrobatics, is the same type that one would expect such maneuvers from...

 

The thing is... if you look at all the combat-oriented skills, there is really only three which cost 3 points (a real value), Acrobatics, Breakfall, and Contortionist (I don't count Combat Piloting because those aren't used in HtH fighting). Of these, Contortionist requires a specific situation to be useful. We've discussed Acrobatics which is useful only a few times until your opponant get used to it and is, face it, entirely up to the GM's discretion on whether it'll work or not. That leaves Breakfall, a skill that can be used each and everytime your PC gets hit.

 

The other combat skills, like Defensive Maneuver or Rapid Fire to name a couple, all cost 5 points or more to buy. Two Weapon Fighting costs a whopping 10 points, hooboy! You see, the more useful a skill gets, the more expensive it should be. If "Instant Stand" is to be officially added to the Breakfall skill, it should cost more, IMO. But we may go with the option I posted previously, which is allowing the Position Shift Adder to be taken with any movement, not just Teleport and Flying (and bumping the cost up to 10 points).

 

Mags