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Posted

Okay, any ideas on just how one could use Dark Champions in the Champions Universe 'present day' (i.e., when all the metahumans are running around), aside from the whole masked vigilante sub-genre?

 

Myself, I'd like to do something like a 'parallel campaign' in which regular PCs at times play a group of MARS cops or PRIMUS/UNTIL agents who clean up the messes the heroes either don't know about or can't be bothered with. Think like Harry Turtledove's two viewpoint characters in 'Guns of the South' -- General Lee on the high end and a regular trooper at the bottom, both viewing the same event but from very different viewpoints.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

Have the Four-Colour stuff occur in the news, and contrast that with the low-down dirty world the Dark Champions characters occupy.

 

Have the occasional four-colour threat make its way into their world. In the Dark Champions game I'm probably not going to run again, I had one of the captains of a particular Mafia family be a full-on Brick, who had started his career as a minor supervillain, then decided to reinvent himself after one to many stays in Stronghold. It was going to make for an interesting surprise if any gunplay occurred with regards to that particular family...

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

Sure it can work I tend to call this "street level champions" Super exist, and heros may well have powers, but basicly its crime and grime, not glitz and photo-ops. The whole "killing" issue needs to be thought out though...for some any use of force has to be sanitised and decidedly "non-lethal" or it is just Not superheros for them...need to work that sort of thing out Ahead of time......

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

It would probably take some work to make the Hudson City setting "fit" the Champions U, if you want some degree of consistency. I doubt it will be too much effort, though, once you've decided on some gimmick for why HC has such a different tone, with no overt superhumans ( weird ancient magic artifacts underneath the place is an easy one ). Obviously, the more strictly action adventure material can readily be applied to things like SWAT teams, soldiers, police, and such, and even some types of super campaign elements like agents and such.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

The easy answer to that question is simply that Hudson City does have it's own superhumans, they're just less flashy then superhumans in other cities and thus don't get as much press.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

No, that's a cop out. That's a non explanation.

 

Obviously metahumans raised in a city as violent as Hudson City is are going to be less flashy then superhumans in other cities. After all the flashier they are the more attention they draw to themselves and the more psychos they're liable to attract. That leads to a greater likelyhood of those psychos discovering secret IDs and such and endangering familes and what not.

 

However if they're sneaky and low key, it leads to greater safety. If they're viewed as 'just another vigilante' the badguys might not take as much trouble to discover secret IDs and such.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

No' date=' that's a cop out. That's a non explanation.[/quote']

 

Actually, I brought this up in another thread: Super Powers in Hudson City, and 'convergence of mystical forces' was one of the best answers I got.

 

Metaphysician, as I understand it (although I'm open to being corrected), Hudson City DOES exist in the Champions Universe. If I remember correctly, at this point in time DoJ doesn't publish settings that are not part of their official timeline.

 

One idea I had would be something like the Comedian in Watchmen. If you think about it, most supers heroes have pretty cut and dry morality. So, if the government (such as UNTIL) wants someone eliminated, not just arrested, they might have to turn to a covert ops. Imagine 'dirty' UNTIL agents, who have some compunctions (don't kill kids, so forth), but are black ops soldiers who don't shave every day. Super armor, super guns, but not strong enough to take on real villains. Instead, they drop into a VIPER base and plant some C4 and sneak out. Just a thought.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

Imagine 'dirty' UNTIL agents' date=' who have some compunctions (don't kill kids, so forth), but are black ops soldiers who don't shave every day. Super armor, super guns, but not strong enough to take on real villains. Instead, they drop into a VIPER base and plant some C4 and sneak out. Just a thought.[/quote']

 

Um...in the real world, UNTIL agents will do just that (asuming VIPER and UNTIL exist in our world, and thay do not, so my point is moot). And asasinating 'evil dictators', killing drug dealers and stealing there stuff, ect...

 

Which reminds me of the up and comming FPS video game NARK (based loosly on the arcade game of the same name in the mid 80's), where you play a police officer, and CAN acualy steal and sell the drugs you conficate from your oponents. And you can use them also...if you have the guts.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

Here is another fun explanation: Imagine that Hudson City has some REALLY POWERFUL Hero, that is either semi retired or so active with his team that he is rarely home, but MOST villains know that you start doing the flashy villain thing it will draw his attention and you will be in a green bubble going to jail real quick. However as he is so busy he leaves the normal crimes to the PD (and the vigilantes).

 

I ripped this idea off of somewhere else...

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

Except that the guy disappears when an ordinary earthquake strikes the city. . .

 

I know it has glitches, glad you caught the refrence

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

It never occured to me that there would be a problem. In all the games I have been involved in, it was assumed both did exist. It was just a matter of focus. Just like the local population interacts with the local Sheriffs department all the time but never really hears about the FBI or CIA except on TV. The FBI would definitely assist in stopping an assualt or mugging if they happened to be there, but they have bigger fish to fry and won't be looking for lower crimes. Not every city in Champs has a resident Super. The "Good" guys tend to gravitate to where the "Bad" guys operate. If there are no "Big bads" there, the "Big Goods" would be more than willing to let the DC style "Little Goods" take care of things. To explain the difference in perspective from Black and White to Grey. It isn't really that difficult. When you are impervious to "normal" damage you can afford to be a squeaky clean good guy. If the local thug can kill you dead with a .38, well you will tend to be a little more pragmatic. Hence the Dark Champs outlook. Hudson Bay may not have any of the "Big Guys" because none of the major Villians has decided to move in. I have been waiting for Hudson City to come out. I intend to use it for all of my "official universe" campaigns. Super, DC or normals. A city designed for DC or less tends to have a more realistic "feel", at least to me. And it can easily be stepped up by just having a Super Villian or two check in.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

Aside from the continuity issues of "how does a major city in a superhero world have no supers" I think the main issue is one of "Are the players willing to be second-stringers in a super hero world?"

 

Now, personally, I've always loved playing the super agent in a super hero world. I like the lower power level, martial arts type, rather than a super flying blaster man type. I think both can exist... but I also think that that means that certain threats would escalate out of their hands. If their battles against the underworld suddenly unleash a massively powerful demon or villain or whatever... they should be happy when Ultra Man comes along to fight it... allowing them to go back to taking on the thugs and the crime lord who unwittingly brought such destruction on the city.

 

Again, personally, I love playing the Metropolis SCU guy, much more than playing Superman. But that's just me. A good GM can make the fact of a big adventure taking place beneath a cataclysmic super fight really cool. Energy blasts raining down. Property destruction everwhere... screaming civilians... and you are the spec ops type doing the dirty work in the shadows that really counts. You get the tapes before they are destroyed, etc. I love that stuff... but it isn't for everyone. Your group needs to be comfortable with that, and many players aren't. They play Champions for the power fantasy... unbeatable, always win, black & white morality... all the stuff I consider really dumb... super-pets... gahhh... and they might not go for the deadly underbelly of the world, which I find much more interesting. Many players want to be the best of the best, and to have NPCs, even if they never interact with them, lighting up the night sky in godlike battles, that may bum them out. To me, it's a great backdrop.

 

YMMV

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

RDU...my feelings exactly...to quote an old character of mine "I fight Crime! You spandex wearing losers don't fight crime...you just fight each other!"...:)It can be very cool But the players need to be on board....

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

RDU...my feelings exactly...to quote an old character of mine "I fight Crime! You spandex wearing losers don't fight crime...you just fight each other!"...:)It can be very cool But the players need to be on board....

 

It's easier to bring them on board if you offer both.

 

Spandex Super Brick: Egad! If "Badly Dressed Evil MasterMind" is successful he will destroy the world!

 

Mega Understatment Man: We can't let that happen!

 

Mysterious Spandex Clad with tradmark Cowl Man: First we must find "beautiful innocent daughter" of "brilliant captive scientist" to find out what he was working on before "Badly Dressed Evil MasterMind" kidnapped him.

 

Mega Understatment Man: Can you do it "Mysterious Spandex Clad with tradmark Cowl Man"?

 

Mysterious Spandex Clad with tradmark Cowl Man: Yes, I will contact my sources in the city. If she can be found they will do it.

 

Enter the DarkChamps PC's. If the players keep two separate sets of PC's they can move from the super side to the DC side as the plot calls for it. Fun for all. :D

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

One thing I've used in the past that dosn't work so good in the current CU is that in the 4 color world magic is simply not an issue ,its bogus, or alien technology or an unsolved mystery.....I save all the mystical stuff for the street level supers so that each has their own schtick...in the offical CU magic is pretty much a given so this would require a big modification...Supers may know that magic is real but most of the magical stuff is "off stage" and back stage is where the street level heros thrive......

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

"Convergence of mystic forces" is the nice convenient excuse.

 

Maybe more of a "balance of mystic forces." If the world's going to have a bright, shiny Millennium City, it needs a dark, gritty Hudson City too. Fate or the universe or what have you subtly arranges things so four-color types flock to one and stay away from the other.

 

Champions-Dark Champions crossover idea: A powerful mystic villain sets out to make Hudson City a happier, shinier place, in order to upset the balance of he universe and wreak havoc.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

I enjoy dark champions as much as the next guy but the power differences really do not work with Hudson City being part of the champions universe. There is no reason a crime hunter like Nighthawk would have come to Millennium City when there was such a crime-ridden sewer as Hudson City just begging for help. The same goes for Shogushen and Nightwind. It seems just easier to consider Hudson City to be part of Earth-D rather than part of Earth-C.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

I enjoy dark champions as much as the next guy but the power differences really do not work with Hudson City being part of the champions universe. There is no reason a crime hunter like Nighthawk would have come to Millennium City when there was such a crime-ridden sewer as Hudson City just begging for help. The same goes for Shogushen and Nightwind. It seems just easier to consider Hudson City to be part of Earth-D rather than part of Earth-C.

 

Of course, it COULD be posable that nobody outside Hudson City KNOWS it is such a crime infested sewer. With crooked polotitions wanting to be relected, and NOT have the FBI. Primus, and/or SAT invading the town and turning it into a war zone, thay might use there infulence to make certan reports unavalabul to the public.

 

Some goes for the local newspaper. Yes, thay report crime, but thay bury the most flamboiant on page five, writing it up to seam less flamoiant than it realy was. Besides, evey reporter knows if thay fiddel around to much into Charlemagne's buisness, thay will disapear forever.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

The Media perspective that Supers splashy front page news. While the Vigilantes are kept under wraps by Law Enforcement, Political(read secret government agency), and the Underworld.

 

I find DC Comics Batman(and Allies) books presents this real well). Marvel Comics tends to lean more towards Super Vigilantes (like the X-Men and District-X). Even the Avengers Low Powered Heroes or Trained Paranormal Operatives(Hawk Eye, Black Panther, Swordsman, etc...) occassionally solo in the Iron Age genre. Some like DareDevil(SPB), Iron Fist(SPB), Punisher(TPO), Spiderman(SPB), Luke Cage(SPB), etc...

 

The Iron Age also lends itself to the Supernatural (Mystic Horrors). The Supervillians and criminals are always more interesting anyway. Conspiracies are the spice of life.

 

Perhaps the most satisfying thing about the Iron Age setting is when you put the Bad Guys down there is an immediate sense of acomplishment, but now the GM has to scramble to keep the PC interested in continuing to fight the good fight.

 

The "Astro City" comic book story lines bring out a Dark Champions: Heroes of Vengence perspective that while challenging can be very reward for everyone.

 

Enjoy writing this one Steve!

 

QM

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

Like others who have already posted, I see it as a matter of scale. The Omega Force could effectively wipe out crime in the city, if only Mechanon and Doctor Destroyer weren't constantly implementing some earthshattering scheme. The Angels of Mercy don't have the firepower to take on the world-class baddies, but they can shut down the local crime lord.

 

The interesting part comes in when you have mid-level baddies that both types can come together to fight....

  • 4 weeks later...
Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

Okay, any ideas on just how one could use Dark Champions in the Champions Universe 'present day' (i.e., when all the metahumans are running around), aside from the whole masked vigilante sub-genre?

 

Myself, I'd like to do something like a 'parallel campaign' in which regular PCs at times play a group of MARS cops or PRIMUS/UNTIL agents who clean up the messes the heroes either don't know about or can't be bothered with. Think like Harry Turtledove's two viewpoint characters in 'Guns of the South' -- General Lee on the high end and a regular trooper at the bottom, both viewing the same event but from very different viewpoints.

I think everyone here who wants to run a Dark Champions game that does not eliminate the heroes in champions should read 'Hitman' by Garth Ennis. The comic was pretty good. The main character had superpowers (x-ray vision and telepathy) which he stopped using about four issues into the comic and you have these great street level characters. When big things would happen in the DC comics universe, he would have a little spill over but not much. Some good story ideas there. The sun is being blotted out by Takofanes and the champions are trying to undo it. Lot of opportunities for criminal behavior when the world is freaking out. And who is left to take care of the streets?

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

The 4e "integration" of DC and the normal CU didnt make any sense, but I put my trust in Steve to handle that better now that he has broader (much) control over both DC and 5e CU.

 

 

Hopefully it will be more of a scoping treatment. Bigger enemies draw full-blown supers, while the street level types are dealing with the sort of criminal the cape & cowl set cant seem to be bothered with. Its all about scale. Just like the Punisher and Spiderman exist in the same NYC as the Avengers, it's possible for street-level types to co-exist with full blown supers.

 

 

 

Also consider that if Hudson is such a hole that no serious "villain" in the comic book sense finds it worthy of their attention and leaves it to the mundane types of criminal, then its reasonably possible that supers of sufficient power to "join the big leagues" would also transition to other cities where powered villains were more common.

Posted

Re: Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

 

My Dark Champions campaign (Omega Team) was set in a universe where super-types generally did not exist (they were very rare). A few villians were beyond human but that just added to the challenge. I think that my next campaign (Conclave, still in planning) will probably follow the same mold although supernatural foes will be more common.

 

I didn't like the intergration of the original Champions and Dark Champs too well either. With some of the villianous threats running around in Hudson City it was hard to explain why true Superheroes did not get involved more often.

 

Man I can hardly wait for DC. The playtest version looks great so far.

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