Actung! Panzer!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

okay, here goes(this is off memory, so there's probably a little muffing up of terms):

with respect to the mechanical energy of objects in motion:

potential energy(PE) is equal to the mass times gravity(g, 9.8m/s^2) x the height of the object(distance from the ground plane)

 

Kinetic Energy(KE) is equal to the mass times the velocity (squared), times one half

 

To calculate how much potential energy a superstrong character can generate, take the listed lifting capacity for their STR rating, and apply the assumption that they can lift that weight 2 meters above the ground plane(if only for one second).

at 150 STR, the lift capacity is 25 million tons= 25 billion kilograms

25 billion times 9.8 times 2 = roughly 500 billion joules

 

Now, when we talk about projectiles, we're talking about kinetic energy.

 

So, the question is, how much of that potential energy can an untrained human being put into a punch? My guess--about 1/16th, based on leg strength being about 3 times arm strength, and the lift capacity based on all four limbs being used, and the amateur puncher being only able to put about half their arm strength into the punch.

This correlates pretty well with human martial artists being able to add up to 4d6 of damage, and a haymaker doing an extra 4d6 of damage--basically putting full body strength behind one blow.

 

So, 1/16 of 500GJ is about 33GJ--or about 1000 x the most powerful kinetic penetrators in military usage.

 

The one caveat is that in practice the punch might tend to push more than penetrate. Even then the vibratory impact might be devastating to the tank's occupants and internal components.

 

considering that 150 STR is in the Our Worlds At War Superman/Ultrapi**ed Hulk/Godzilla range, casual destruction of main battle tanks seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

It's hard to calculate how quickly the punch might be delivered. The average punch takes a half second or less to deliver, and a superhumanly strong punch might well be much faster than that.

Thanks. I even understood that.

 

As to "casual destruction of main battle tanks," perhaps amongst 150 STR bricks. But based on your formula, by the time you get down to much more typical 60 - 75 STR bricks tank busting is going to be a whole lot less casual. The kinetic energy from a STR 75 brick's punch is going to be several orders of magnitude lower. (BTW, I never doubted a STR 150 brick could break a tank. Or fold it in half and stick it in his wallet.)

 

I'm still looking for more data on the kinetic energy from an M1's APFSDSDU rounds. (Actually, since modern anti-tank weapons essentially burn their way through most armors in a few microseconds, I don't think it would be all that crazy to call many such attacks energy-based rather than physical attacks.)

[megaplayboy]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

Thanks. I even understood that.

 

As to "casual destruction of main battle tanks," perhaps amongst 150 STR bricks. But based on your formula, by the time you get down to much more typical 60 - 75 STR bricks tank busting is going to be a whole lot less casual. The kinetic energy from a STR 75 brick's punch is going to be several orders of magnitude lower. (BTW, I never doubted a STR 150 brick could break a tank. Or fold it in half and stick it in his wallet.)

 

I'm still looking for more data on the kinetic energy from an M1's APFSDSDU rounds. (Actually, since modern anti-tank weapons essentially burn their way through most armors in a few microseconds, I don't think it would be all that crazy to call many such attacks energy-based rather than physical attacks.)

well, technically, even a STR 48 brick could "stop" an m1 tank, just by pushing their STR and flipping it over (a STR 40 brick might even be able to lift off the turret with pushing).

 

But a STR 75 brick(c.16 MJ of potential energy--1 Megajoule in a straight punch) is probably the lowest threshold for even denting tank armor.

 

I think sabot rounds should still qualify as physical attacks, though HEAT rounds definitely seem like an energy attack to me.

[FPilot]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

Useless fact: 20 of an Abrams tank's 60 tons is in the turret.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

While HEAT would appear to be energy based and for years it was believed that the round burned a hole through the armor, HEAT is a kinetic penetrator, the round detonates forming the liner of the shaped charge into a projectile which penetrates the same way any other AP, APDS etc round would, the only differance is how it was formed and propelled. Some of the more recent cluster bomb munitions use this same principle to attack the top armor of vehicles, the bomblet has a sensor that tells the bomblet where the target is and then it fires a shaped charge forming a projectile.

 

12Mj is what I've seen listed for the 120mm L44 too. It shouldn't matter what round is used because that just determines how hard the penetrator is, how it is effected by range (drag etc) and the surface area impacted. Muzzle energy is based on wt and velocity so material and shape don't have much to do with it. Since the 120mm L44 only has APFSDS, APFSDSDU and HE I would guess this was based on one of the AP rounds, HE rounds are often lower velocity and muzzle energy since their purpose is to make a big boom not penetrate armor.

[LordGhee]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

Actually heat forms a plasma jet which burns through the target. ap round strike the target and seem to transfer the engery of the round to the target which melts it as it is pushed aside. the projectile is call a self forging warhead, it literlaly makes itself.

 

 

useless fact the 50 cal was the first at (gun) weapon adopited in 1929 by the U.S. Army. later in the late 30's the 50cal was notice to be obsolete so the German 37mm atg was Adopted. so our early atg was a german design shooting german armour.

 

 

Lord ghee

[Toadmaster]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

Actually heat forms a plasma jet which burns through the target. ap round strike the target and seem to transfer the engery of the round to the target which melts it as it is pushed aside. the projectile is call a self forging warhead, it literlaly makes itself.

Lord ghee

 

You are correct that it forms a plasma jet but it doesn't burn through the armor it uses kinetic energy, the penetration is based on velocity and mass just like a "normal" AP round, not heat like a cutting torch. Here is a website I found that probably gets into far more than most of us would care to know, but is cool because it is talking about the worlds largest shaped charge.

 

 

http://www.llnl.gov/str/Baum.html

 

You are also correct that the self forging warhead is not actually a HEAT round but I mentioned them because they are related.

 

[Beast]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

if you are thinking of thew added skirts on a panzer IV H

it would be added armor only vs shape charge weapons ie(bazooka's,panzerfausts,panzersheriks,& recoiless rifles etc)

these are weapons that rely on the shaped explosive warhead to penatrate the armor as opposed to the kenitic energy poisoning generated by the volocity of the shell

 

the skirts predetonate the shape charge so that the real armor is beyond the focus of the jet created by the shape charge so the damage is spread over a larger area of the armor

 

 

sorry the wargaming geek got ou

 

 

I was thinking that the best way to do it is to reduce the armor DEF versus modern guns. Sort of like how you can have ancient armor have 0 DEF versus guns and the like. Another is to give WWII tanks AP rounds' date=' and no Hardended DEF (although the shields they put on some Panzers may count), while modern tanks get Hardended DEF versus these sorts of attacks. The problem is that HERO doesn't quite allow for this sort of breakdown of attacks and the like. GURPS does, but then GURPS has things like 10d6x100 attacks...[/quote']

[Beast]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

HEAT rounds have a copper liner in them that when moving (at about 25k fps)the armor is more akin to water and is pushed out of the way

 

also 1 of the lovely properties of du is that it does not mushroom upon striking the armor like steel

it fractures still leaving a sharp point to apply the remaining energy so the cavity created is smaller so less energy is needed to penatrate through a given distance of armor

 

well, technically, even a STR 48 brick could "stop" an m1 tank, just by pushing their STR and flipping it over (a STR 40 brick might even be able to lift off the turret with pushing).

 

But a STR 75 brick(c.16 MJ of potential energy--1 Megajoule in a straight punch) is probably the lowest threshold for even denting tank armor.

 

I think sabot rounds should still qualify as physical attacks, though HEAT rounds definitely seem like an energy attack to me.

[AaronD]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

if you are thinking of thew added skirts on a panzer IV H

it would be added armor only vs shape charge weapons ie(bazooka's,panzerfausts,panzersheriks,& recoiless rifles etc)

these are weapons that rely on the shaped explosive warhead to penatrate the armor as opposed to the kenitic energy poisoning generated by the volocity of the shell

 

I've heard that the armored skirts were originally developed to protect against russian anti-tank rifles which could penetrate the hull sides of most german tanks at the time. The thin plate would distort and deflect the small ATR bullet. It was later found to be just as effective against shaped charges and was, thus, used throughout the war. Later skirts were wire mesh which were only for shaped charge weapons.

 

I'm not 100% sure the anti-atr theory is correct but it makes sense considering they were originally fielded in Russian in 1943 where there wasn't much hollow-charge stuff around.

 

 

Aaron

[tgrandjean]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

Just as an aside, and admittedly not realistic, for differentation between modern and WWII and earlier tanks, seperate PD/ED. Have modern weapons target ED. Earlier vehicles have lower ED than PD.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

I've heard that the armored skirts were originally developed to protect against russian anti-tank rifles which could penetrate the hull sides of most german tanks at the time. The thin plate would distort and deflect the small ATR bullet. It was later found to be just as effective against shaped charges and was, thus, used throughout the war. Later skirts were wire mesh which were only for shaped charge weapons.

 

I'm not 100% sure the anti-atr theory is correct but it makes sense considering they were originally fielded in Russian in 1943 where there wasn't much hollow-charge stuff around.

 

 

Aaron

 

I've seen this argued quite effectively as well, since the skirts appeared before a weapon with a heat round was a real threat while the Soviet 14.5mm AT rifles and British Boys .55 AT rifle were available and were a real threat to the rather thin side and rear armor of German tanks.

 

The idea of spaced armor vs HEAT is it detonates the round outside of its ideal stand off distance greatly reducing its effectiveness. It also works well against AP rounds since it can decap them (many have a hardened nose which the spaced armor can knock off before it hits the main armor), or cause them to yaw (turn sideways increasing the area the energy is applied against greatly reducing penetration (ex a 1" x 4" projectile with 100,000 J of energy striking point first will apply 100,000 J per square inch, while one hitting sideways will only apply 25,000J per sq inch).

 

The wire screens were found to be effective and reduced weight, I've heard they work against AP and HEAT similar to the solid panels but not certain about the solid AP, you might notice a similarity with the current bar armor being used against RPG's on the US Strikers in Iraq.

[LordGhee]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

One thing this post has me thinking is about the "universal tech system" sort of a chart (or something ) that will tell you the differance in weapons. Here is some info form The strageypage.com that makes a point of the changes from WWII to present. If your do a WWII game I feel it should work if you bring it forward or back.

 

Check out the stite great for mil history and gamers.

 

ATTRITION: Why American Tactics Really Frighten the World

 

 

July 15, 2004: Combat continues to become more of a distant, but deadlier, experience. The recent campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq have reminded military commanders world wide that these trends of the last three centuries are continuing, and accelerating. Three hundred years ago, in the early 18th century, gunpowder (in muskets and mobile cannon) had extended the range of weapons beyond what any army had ever seen before. That was just the beginning, as over the last three centuries, weapons have achieved longer range, and greater accuracy. This has forced armies to spread out. By a century ago, it was often necessary for armies to spread out over many kilometers of frontage. For thousands of years before that, a few hundred meters of front was the most two armies would encounter. But with rifles and artillery able to hit with increasing accuracy, at every longer ranges, troops had to spread out, and keep their heads down. No more standing tall and marching into battle.

 

In World War II, the average tank engagement was about 700 meters, but it took an average of 18 shots to knock out another tank. During the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, the average range was about a kilometer, and it only took two shots to destroy the target. But by the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the average range was over two kilometers, and it took a little more than one shot per kill. The wars in Kuwait, Israel and Iraq were unique, however, in that they were fought in a generally flat, desert like terrain (meaning there was little vegetation.) A large part of World War II was fought in urban or wooded areas, where the longest shot you could get, under any circumstances, was about half a kilometer. However, the increased accuracy of modern tanks makes their gun more lethal no matter what the range. But longer range means that enemy crews with less training, and less capable fire control equipment, are less likely to get off an accurate shot. And increasingly, the first shot is the one that will kill you.

 

Bombing accuracy has also made enormous gains. During World War II, you had to drop about nine thousand bombs, from an altitude of 10,000 feet, to guarantee a hit on 60x100 foot target. You had to stay that high to avoid most of the anti-aircraft fire. Back then, accuracy (Circular Error of Probability, or CEP) was one kilometer (meaning that half the bombs dropped would fall into the one kilometer circle.) By the Korean war (1950-53), CEP had improved to 330 meters, meaning it only took 1,100 bombs to hit the target. A decade later, during the Vietnam war, CEPs of about 120 meters were achieved. This meant only 176 bombs, were needed. By the 1991 Gulf War, the average CEP was 60 meters, and 30 bombs, were needed. In 2003, the CEP was less than ten meters, and one bomb, and one aircraft, was all it took. During World War II, it required over 500 aircraft to get the hit, which is why back then, most of the bombing was either with hundreds of bombers, or a much smaller number of bombers coming in very low (and very likely to get shot down if the target was heavily defended).

 

In the last two decades, the U.S. Army has emphasized marksmanship. This means that infantry, machine-gunners and tank crews are much more accurate than they have been in the past. This is a major reason why anyone fighting American troops takes such high casualties. While most opponents fire wildly, American troops fire back with deadly accuracy. All of these changes, and the American dedication to marksmanship, has greatly upset the leaders of many foreign armed forces. The highly accurate tanks and bombs require money. Not just for the equipment, but for the cost of wear and tear on equipment, and ammo used, for lots of training. Most nations keep defense costs down by not using their weapons a lot, and not firing off a lot of ammo. But this has increasingly led to catastrophic defeats at the hands of more accurate and better trained troops like the Americans (or British, or troops of any army that train a lot.)

 

For decades, the Soviet Union built weapons that were not sturdy enough to be used a lot for training. These tanks, guns and other weapons were meant to be taken care of until there was a war, then they were used a lot, in the hope that a quick victory could be achieved. Now that the Soviet model has been, well, disgraced, many generals, and admirals, are being forced to rethink over half a century of accepted wisdom.

 

Now for the charts work coming.

[Susano]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

PANZERKAMPFWAGEN V "PANTHER" MODEL D

(Sonderkraftfahrzeug 171)

Val	CHA	Cost	Notes
5	SIZE	25	3.2" x 1.6"; -5" KB; -3 DCV
54	STR	19	Lift 44 tons; 10 1/2d6 HTH Damage
10	DEX	0	OCV: 3/DCV: 3
19	BODY	4
13	DEF	33
2	SPD	0	Phases: 6, 12
Total Characteristics Cost: 81

Movement:	Ground: 12"/24"
Swimming: 0"/0""

Cost	Abilities and Equipment
Propulsion Systems
21	Motorized Tracked Military Vehicle: Ground Movement +13" (19" total); Only On 
Appropriate Terrain (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge (easily-obtained fuel; 4 hours; -0)
-2	Ground Vehicle: Swimming -2"

Tactical Systems
97	75 mm KwK 42 L/70 Cannon: RKA 5d6+1, Indirect (can be arced over some 
obstacles; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), 82 Charges (+1); OIF Bulky (-1), 
Real Weapon (-1/4) plus +2 OCV, +2 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
52	7.92 mm MG 34 Machine Gun: RKA 2d6+1, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased 
Stun Multiplier (+1/4), 4,200 Charges (+1); OIF Bulky (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +3 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
2	Armored Body: +1 DEF; Limited Coverage (front & sides; -1/4)
3	Armored Nose And Turret: +2 DEF; Limited Coverage (forward 60 degrees; -1)
8	60 Degree Sloped Rear And Side Armor: +6 DEF; Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited 
Coverage (rear and sides; -1/4), Only Versus Physical Projectiles (-1/2)
15	35 Degree Sloped Front Armor: +8 DEF; Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited Coverage 
(forward 60 degrees; -1), Only Versus Physical Projectiles (-1/2) plus +8 DEF; 
Activation Roll 11- (-1), Limited Coverage (forward 60 degrees; -1), Only Versus 
Physical Projectiles (-1/2), All DEF Shares The Same Activation Roll (-0)
8	Heavy: Knockback Resistance -4" (-9" total)

Operation Systems
4	Radio: Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group); OIF Bulky (-1), Affected As 
Hearing Group As Well As Radio Group (-1/4)
208	Total Abilities and Equipment Cost
289	Total Vehicle Cost

Value	Disadvantages
25	Distinctive Features: Nazi Germany Wehrmacht Tank (NC, Extreme)
15	Physical Limitation: Suffers From Frequent Mechanical Problems (F, G)
25	Total Disadvantage Points
50	Total Cost (249/5)

Description:

Just about every book on World War II armored warfare states the Panzer V "Panther" to be the best all-around tank of the war. Avalon Hill's game Panzerblitz stated it was the best tank in the world up until the mid-1950s. What made it such a great tank? Several factors.

 

When the Germans entered into the Second World War they did so with a number of well-designed light and medium tanks, but no heavy tanks. In fact, in a one-on-one encounter, many German tanks were outclassed by the heavier French Char B tanks. The reason the Germans did so well was due to having radios in all their tanks and to superior tactics and training. Over on the Eastern front, the Russians countered the German armored advance with new tanks of their own, by introducing the highly effective T-34. Combining well-sloped armor, wide tracks, and a large-caliber high-velocity cannon, the T-34 ran rampant over Germany's panzer divisions. This caused General Heinz Guderian (creator of Germany's tank army) to launch an investigation into armored warfare on the Eastern Front. The result was a request for a medium to heavy tank incorporating elements of the T-34.

 

The Panzer V is the result of several different vehicles developed as far back as 1938. The first true Panzer V prototypes appeared in early 1942, with production starting in May of 1942. The Model D, the tank depicted in this write-up, went into mass production in November of 1942, and finally saw combat on July 5, 1943, as part of "Operation Citadel," the push to surround Soviet forces in Kursk. Because of the speed with which the Panzer V was developed, it was overweight (42.3 tons compared to a target of 34.4 tons) and suffered from various suspension and transmission problems. This resulted in a staggering loss of 56 percent of the new Panthers in one day, and by July 6, a mere 20 percent of the 250 Panthers fielded were still in action.

 

Undaunted, the Germans set to correcting the various problems inherent in the tank's design. They abandoned the Model D for the revised and improved Model A, correcting the gearbox and transmission problems. The Model G incorporated many features of the abandoned Panther II project. including a redesigned hull. All in all, the Germans built 600 Model D tanks, 1,768 Model A's, and 3,740 Model G tanks in 1944 alone.

 

Combat-wise, the Panther was to be feared. It quite capable of defeating the American Sherman, British Churchill and Cromwell, and Russian T-34 tanks, and was the equal of (or better) of the improved T-34/85 when it showed up in 1944. The Panther's 75mm gun is described as able to destroy any enemy tank in existence from 1943-44 at ranges of 2,000 meters (Which happens to be the maximum range of the gun as it is written up!). Because of it's high muzzle velocity, I gave it an extra damage class, and if using armor-piercing rounds it should be around a 3 1/2d6 RKA (and remember, there is no Hardened DEF in W.W.II!). Note this model has no hull or coaxial machine gun, but later models corrected that omission.

 

Readers may note that attacks to the front of the Panzer V may encounter as much as 32 DEF. This might seem a bit much true, but reports indicate that the Panzer V could take hits from a 90mm cannon (at ranges of 1000 meters or greater) and survive. About the only way to take the Panther down was to flank it, and even then, the sloping armor on the sides and rear provides excellent protection. One final note -- all this DEF should be for naught in an encounter with more modern tank guns. At some point (don't ask me when), modern high-velocity tank guns will blow right through a Panzer V, sloped armor or no. The trick is to try and find a balance between armor of the Second World War, Korea, Vietnam, the Six-Days War, and the Gulf War(s). But that's beyond the scope of this write-up.

 

A Panzer V Model D is 22' 7" long, 11' 3" wide, and 9' 8" tall. It weighs 42.3 tons, has a top speed of 29 mph on the road, 15 mph off, and carries a crew of five.

[Beast]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

with the way you have written up the armor activates why not give modern tanks skill levels vs that activate roll

or 1 step down per tech level difference to the activate roll

[Susano]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

JAGDPANZER V JAGDPANTHER

(Sonderkraftfahrzeug 173)

Val	CHA	Cost	Notes
5	SIZE	25	3.2" x 1.6"; -5" KB; -3 DCV
54	STR	19	Lift 44 tons; 10 1/2d6 HTH Damage
10	DEX	0	OCV: 3/DCV: 3
19	BODY	4
13	DEF	33
2	SPD	0	Phases: 6, 12
Total Characteristics Cost: 81

Movement:	Ground: 12"/24"
Swimming: 0"/0"

Cost	Abilities and Equipment
Propulsion Systems
21	Motorized Tracked Military Vehicle: Ground Movement +13" (19" total); Only On 
Appropriate Terrain (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge (easily-obtained fuel; 4 hours; -0)
-2	Ground Vehicle: Swimming -2"

Tactical Systems
73	88 mm PaK 43/3 L/71 Cannon: RKA 5d6+1, Indirect (can be arced over some 
obstacles; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), 60 Charges (+3/4); OIF 
Bulky (-1), Limited Arc Of Fire (forward 60 degrees; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +2 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
41	7.92 mm MG 34 Machine Gun: RKA 2d6+1, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased 
Stun Multiplier (+1/4), 600 Charges (+1); OIF Bulky (-1), Limited Arc Of Fire 
(forward 60 degrees; only on same horizontal level; -3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +3 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
3	Armored Nose: +2 DEF; Limited Coverage (forward 60 degrees; -1)
8	60 Degree Sloped Rear And Side Armor: +6 DEF; Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited 
Coverage (rear and sides; -1/4), Only Versus Physical Projectiles (-1/2)
15	35 Degree Sloped Front Armor: +8 DEF; Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited Coverage 
(forward 60 degrees; -1), Only Versus Physical Projectiles (-1/2) plus +8 DEF; 
Activation Roll 11- (-1), Limited Coverage (forward 60 degrees; -1), Only Versus 
Physical Projectiles (-1/2), All DEF Shares The Same Activation Roll (-0)
8	Heavy: Knockback Resistance -4" (-9" total)

Operation Systems
4	Radio: Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group); OIF Bulky (-1), Affected As 
Hearing Group As Well As Radio Group (-1/4)
171	Total Abilities and Equipment Cost
252	Total Vehicle Cost

Value	Disadvantages
25	Distinctive Features: Nazi Germany Wehrmacht Tank (NC, Extreme)
25	Total Disadvantage Points
45	Total Cost (227/5)

Description:

Having developed the powerful 88mm Pak 43/3 L/71 cannon, the German high command needed a chassis strong enough to mount it. The Panzer V proved to be the only logical choice, as the Panzer III/IV chassis wasn't strong enough (unless the armor was too think to make it of any use in combat) and the Panzer VI (Tiger) chassis was too immobile. The first prototype was completed October 20, 1943 and went into production soon after. A very rare vehicle, only 392 were made, which is fortunate, as it was highly effective at its job -- one encounter saw three Jagdpanzers destroy 11 Churchill tanks in roughly two minutes.

 

Weighing in at 45 tons, the vehicle's powerful engine could propel it as speeds close to 30 mph. In addition, the wide tracks and interleaved read wheel suspension resulted lower ground pressure then the StuG III assault gun -- which weighed in at half that of the Jagdpanzer!

 

Although the Jagdpanzer's armor is fairly thin -- only 60-80 mm along the front, it is sloped at 35 degrees, and offers excellent protection. It is this same sloping profile that helps make the Jagdpanzer one of the most sleek and elegant-looking armored fighting vehicles of the war.

 

A Jagdpanzer V Jagdpanther is 22' 6" long, 10' 9" wide, and 8' 11" tall. It weighs 45.5 tons, has a top speed of 29 mph on the road, 15 mph off, and carries a crew of 5.

[Susano]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

JAGDPANZER JAGDTIGER

(Sonderkraftfahrzeug 186)

Val	CHA	Cost	Notes
6	SIZE	30	4" x 2"; -6" KB; -4 DCV
58	STR	19	Lift 75 tons; 11 1/2d6 HTH Damage
10	DEX	0	OCV: 3/DCV: 3
22	BODY	6
15	DEF	39
2	SPD	0	Phases: 6, 12
Total Characteristics Cost: 94

Movement:	Ground: 16"/32"
Swimming: 0"/0"

Cost	Abilities and Equipment
Propulsion Systems
16	Motorized Tracked Military Vehicle: Ground Movement +10" (16" total); Only On 
Appropriate Terrain (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge (easily-obtained fuel; 4 hours; -0)
-2	Ground Vehicle: Swimming -2"

Tactical Systems
72	128 mm PaK 44 L/44 Cannon: RKA 6d6, Indirect (can be arced over some 
obstacles; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range 
(11,205" or just under 14 miles; +1/2), 38 Charges (+1/2); Extra Time (Extra Phase; -3/4), 
OIF Bulky (-1), Limited Arc Of Fire (forward 60 degrees; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +2 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
41	7.92 mm MG 34 Machine Gun: RKA 2d6+1, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased 
Stun Multiplier (+1/4), 2,925 Charges (+1); OIF Bulky (-1), Limited Arc Of Fire 
(forward 60 degrees; only on same horizontal level; -3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +3 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
22	Armored Nose: +15 DEF; Limited Coverage (forward 60 degrees; -1)
15	Sloped Front Armor: +15 DEF; Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited Coverage (forward 
60 degrees; -1), Only Versus Physical Projectiles (-1/2)
11	60 Degree Sloped Rear And Side Armor: +8 DEF; Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited 
Coverage (rear and sides; -1/4), Only Versus Physical Projectiles (-1/2)
6	Heavy: Knockback Resistance -3" (-9" total)

Operation Systems
4	Radio: Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group); OIF Bulky (-1), Affected As 
Hearing Group As Well As Radio Group (-1/4)
185	Total Abilities and Equipment Cost
279	Total Vehicle Cost

Value	Disadvantages
25	Distinctive Features: Nazi Germany Wehrmacht Tank (NC, Extreme)
25	Total Disadvantage Points
51	Total Cost (254/5)

Description:

Keeping with the same pattern it had followed with the Panzer 38(t), the Panzer IV, and the Panzer V, the German Army decided to adapt the Panzer VI B chassis for use as a tank destroyer. The reason for this was simple: turretless tanks were cheaper and easier to produce than turreted combat tanks. Thus, the Jagdtiger was born. An immense vehicle, it is the heaviest German tank destroyer of World War II, and mounts the largest gun used on any German, operational, armored fighting vehicle.

 

The first prototype of the Jagdtiger appeared in October of 1943, just six months after the King Tiger had entered production. Based on the King Tiger design, the Jagdtiger was even taller, and lacked the sleek profile of the Jagdpanther. However, the Jagdtiger made up for any aesthetic shortcomings by mounting a 128mm main gun. Capable of firing both AP and HE rounds, the Pak 44 L/55 had a muzzle velocity of 920 meters per second (3,016 ft/sec), a maximum range of 22,410 meters (73,523 ft), could punch holes in 230 mm (9.1 inches) of armor plate at a range of 1000 meters (3,028 ft), and at 3,000 meters (9,842 ft) could penetrate 173mm (6.8 inches) of armor! Unfortunately, the 128mm shells were so large and heavy they meant the vehicle could only carry 38 rounds. As these rounds needed to be assembled before use, it also meant the Jagdtigers rate of fire was slowed considerably.

 

Defensively, the Jagdtiger sported 100mm to 250mm (9.8 inch) thick armor along the front and superstructure, with the rest of the vehicle's armor being a far more moderate 80mm thick. Set at a 75 degree slope, the front armor of the Jagdtiger was effectively invulnerable to any and all Allied tank and/or anti-tank cannon. Of course, hits to the side and rear were far more effective, and with a mere 30mm of top armor, artillery and bombing runs could destroy one of these monstrous vehicles with ease.

 

A highly rare vehicle, only 150 or so were produced, with at least 26 forced to mount the 88mm L/71 KwK 43 cannon (also used on the King Tiger) as the 128mm gun was in short supply. It was also slow, to heavy for any bridge in Germany, and drank fuel at an astonishing rate. The best use for the Jagdtiger was for it to be stationed hull down and act as a semi-mobile pillbox, using its 128mm cannon to wreck Allied armor.

 

A Jagdpanzer Jagdtiger is 25' 7" long, 11' 11" wide, and 9' 3" tall. It weighs 71.7 tons (heaviest armored fighting vehicle of the war), has a top speed of 24 mph on the road, 10.5 mph off, and carries a crew of 6.

[DrTemp]

Re: Achtung! Panzer!

 

Something urges me to point at the mising "h" in the title of this thread.

[Susano]

Re: Achtung! Panzer!

 

Something urges me to point at the mising "h" in the title of this thread.

 

Sorry. It's not my native language.

[DrTemp]

Re: Achtung! Panzer!

 

Sorry. It's not my native language.

 

No need to apologize. It was just one of my Psychological Limitations that made me write that.

[Susano]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

PANZERKAMPFWAGEN VI "TIGER I" MODEL E

(Sonderkraftfahrzeug 181)

Val	CHA	Cost	Notes
5	SIZE	25	3.2" x 1.6"; -5" KB; -3 DCV
56	STR	21	Lift 58 tons; 11d6 HTH Damage
10	DEX	0	OCV: 3/DCV: 3
20	BODY	5
15	DEF	39
2	SPD	0	Phases: 6, 12
Total Characteristics Cost: 90

Movement:	Ground: 16"/32"
Swimming: 0"/0""

Cost	Abilities and Equipment
Propulsion Systems
16	Motorized Tracked Military Vehicle: Ground Movement +10" (16" total); Only On 
Appropriate Terrain (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge (easily-obtained fuel; 2.5 hours; -0)
-2	Ground Vehicle: Swimming -2"

Tactical Systems
88	88 mm KwK 36 L/56 Cannon: RKA 5d6+1, Indirect (can be arced over some 
obstacles; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), 92 Charges (+3/4); OIF 
Bulky (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus +2 OCV, +2 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
41	7.92 mm MG 34 Machine Gun: RKA 2d6+1, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased 
Stun Multiplier (+1/4), 1,960 Charges (+1); OIF Bulky (-1), Limited Arc Of Fire 
(forward 60 degrees; only on same horizontal level; -3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +3 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
52	7.92 mm MG 34 Machine Gun: RKA 2d6+1, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased 
Stun Multiplier (+1/4), 1,960 Charges (+1); OIF Bulky (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +3 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
16	Smoke Dischargers: Darkness to Sight Group 4" radius; 6 Continuing Charges lasting 
1 Turn each (-1/4), OIF Bulky (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4)
5	Smoke Dischargers: Another Smoke Discharger (total of 2)
4	Armored Nose: +3 DEF; Limited Coverage (forward 60 degrees; -1)
8	Heavy: Knockback Resistance -4" (-9" total)

Operation Systems
4	Radio: Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group); OIF Bulky (-1), Affected As 
Hearing Group As Well As Radio Group (-1/4)
234	Total Abilities and Equipment Cost
324	Total Vehicle Cost

Value	Disadvantages
25	Distinctive Features: Nazi Germany Wehrmacht Tank (NC, Extreme)
5	Physical Limitation: All Turreted Weapons Must Point In The Same Direction (I, S)
15	Physical Limitation: Suffers From Frequent Mechanical Problems (F, G)
45	Total Disadvantage Points
56	Total Cost (279/5)

Description:

The Tiger is probably the most (in)famous German tank of World War II, and certainly seems to be the vehicle many people think of when the word "panzer" is mentioned. It was developed in response to losses suffered against Allied heavy tanks, such as the British Matilda II and the French Char 1B. However, initial progress was slowed with the appearance of the Panzer IV, which suited the needs of the German Army just fine.

 

Fighting on the Eastern Front brought the need for a working heavy tank back. The Russian T-34 and KV tanks were capable of destroying anything the Germans could throw at them. This lead to the development of the Panzer V ("Panther") and the Panzer VI ("Tiger") tanks. However, the Tiger's development was one of conflict between Hitler, who wanted a tank capable of mounting the 88mm AA cannon, and the German Weapons Department, who wanted to use a 60mm or 70mm tapered bore-gun in order to keep down weight. In the end, the 88mm design won out, and production of the Tiger I began in August of 1942, continuing until June 1944. All in all, over 1,350 Tiger I tanks were produced.

 

Formidable in combat, the Tiger I suffered from frequent mechanical problems, usually associated with its great weight. It was underpowered for its size, didn't do well in rough terrain, and consumed great quantities of fuel. In one example, in Italy, 16 Tigers were reduced to just four in only two days, with nine of the losses coming from mechanical difficulties, and only three from enemy fire. On the other hand, when the Tiger worked, it worked quite well, and in one case, five Tiger I tanks destroyed 12 T34 and T60 tanks in a single engagement. On the Western front, the British developed such a healthy fear for the Tiger (where it was used in static defensive positions to great effect), that they began to report Tigers all up and down the front, even though a mere 90 were in operation at any one time! British doctrine stated that five Shermans were needed to take out one Tiger, and you'd lose four doing it. There was some truth to this, as on June 13, 1944, a group of 13 Tigers (and one Panzer IV) smashed a British armor brigade, destroying 48 vehicles and inflicting 255 casualties, while losing just four Tigers and the Panzer IV.

 

A fearsome vehicle, the Tiger seems to be the epitome of the World War II tank. hard to stop, unless you hit it in the tracks or side, its mechanical problems may just do the job for you.

 

A Panzer VI Tiger is 20' 4" long, 12' 3" wide, and 9' 5" tall. It weighs 56 tons, has a top speed of around 24 mph on the road, 12.5 mph off, and carries a crew of five.

[Susano]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

PANZERKAMPFWAGEN VI MODEL B

"KING TIGER"

(Sonderkraftfahrzeug 182)

Val	CHA	Cost	Notes
5	SIZE	25	3.2" x 1.6"; -5" KB; -3 DCV
57	STR	22	Lift 15 tons; 9d6 HTH Damage
10	DEX	0	OCV: 3/DCV: 3
21	BODY	6
15	DEF	39
2	SPD	0	Phases: 6, 12
Total Characteristics Cost: 92

Movement:	Ground: 16"/32"
Swimming: 0"/0""

Cost	Abilities and Equipment
Propulsion Systems
16	Motorized Tracked Military Vehicle: Ground Movement +10" (16" total); Only On 
Appropriate Terrain (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge (easily-obtained fuel; 2.5 hours; -0)
-2	Ground Vehicle: Swimming -2"

Tactical Systems
112	88 mm KwK 43/3 L/71 Cannon: RKA 5 1/2d6, Indirect (can be arced over some 
obstacles; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range 
(at least 1,600", or 2 miles; +1/2), 84 Charges (+3/4); OIF Bulky (-1), 
Real Weapon (-1/4) plus +2 OCV, +2 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
41	7.92 mm MG 34 Machine Gun: RKA 2d6+1, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased 
Stun Multiplier (+1/4), 2,925 Charges (+1); OIF Bulky (-1), Limited Arc Of Fire 
(forward 60 degrees; only on same horizontal level; -3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +3 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
52	7.92 mm MG 34 Machine Gun: RKA 2d6+1, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased 
Stun Multiplier (+1/4), 2,925 Charges (+1); OIF Bulky (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +3 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
57	7.92 mm MG 42 Machine Gun: RKA 2d6+1, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), +1 Increased 
Stun Multiplier (+1/4), 400 Charges (+1); OIF Bulky (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) plus 
+2 OCV, +6 RMod; OIF Bulky (-1)
16	Smoke Dischargers: Darkness to Sight Group 4" radius; 6 Continuing Charges lasting 
1 Turn each (-1/4), OIF Bulky (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4)
5	Smoke Dischargers: Another Smoke Discharger (total of 2)
13	Armored Nose: +9 DEF; Limited Coverage (forward 60 degrees; -1)
10	60 Degree Sloped Rear And Side Armor: +8 DEF; Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited 
Coverage (rear and sides; -1/4), Only Versus Physical Projectiles (-1/2)
12	60 Degree Sloped Front Armor: +12 DEF; Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited Coverage 
(forward 60 degrees; -1), Only Versus Physical Projectiles (-1/2)
10	Heavy: Knockback Resistance -5" (-10" total)

Operation Systems
4	Radio: Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group); OIF Bulky (-1), Affected As 
Hearing Group As Well As Radio Group (-1/4)
346	Total Abilities and Equipment Cost
438	Total Vehicle Cost

Value	Disadvantages
25	Distinctive Features: Nazi Germany Wehrmacht Tank (NC, Extreme)
25	Total Disadvantage Points
83	Total Cost (413/5)

Description:

Known as the Königstiger (King Tiger), Tiger II, or Royal Tiger, the Panzer VI B combined many elements of the Panzer V Panther with the Tiger I chassis. The result was a well-armed and armored vehicle that inspired more fear in the Allies than the Tiger I. A fairly impressive accomplishment considering a mere 489 of the tanks were ever made.

 

The King Tiger is a direct result of the need for Germany to counter the effectiveness of the Russian T-34 and KV tanks. The idea was to create a tank that outgunned anything the Russians had, and was bettor protected as well. Work began in August of 1942, with the Henschel and Porsche companies asked to produce prototypes. In January of 1943, Hitler requested the tanks to have 185mm (7.3 inch) front armor and 80mm (3.2 inch) side armor. The vehicle was also to mount the new long barrel 88mm Pak 43/3 L/71 cannon., which had a 19 foot barrel, itself longer than the Panzer III!

 

Production of the King Tiger started in January of 1944 and continued until March of 1945. They were sent to both fronts, and managed to wreck a great deal of havoc. The King Tiger's 185mm front armor was effectively invulnerable by anything the Allies had, and there are no records of a King Tiger's forward armor being penetrated by an Allied round. It's side armor could could be punched through at standard combat ranges, however, and the vehicle was often knocked out by shots to the side or rear, hits to the tracks, or strikes from artillery or aircraft. As with the Tiger I, most King Tiger losses were from mechanical problems or a lack of fuel. Offensively, the vehicle's contributions were modest. It's great weight inhibited its mobility, as did a lack of fuel, maintenance, and other factors. Like the Tiger I, the King Tiger worked best when used in a static situation, letting the enemy come to it, as opposed to going on the offensive.

 

A Panzer IV King Tiger is 23' 10" long, 12' 4" wide, and 10' 2" tall. It weighs 69.4 tons, has a top speed of around 24 mph on the road, 10.5 mph off, and carries a crew of five.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

IIRC, some of the Tigers and King Tigers carried a close quarters mortar or grenade launcher of some sort, which served the same purpose as the canister rounds on American tanks.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

IIRC' date=' some of the Tigers and King Tigers carried a close quarters mortar or grenade launcher of some sort, which served the same purpose as the canister rounds on American tanks.[/quote']

 

Many of the German vehicles had 9.2cm mortars mounted in the turret / superstructure roof. I believe it was early in 1944 that they started being equipped with them, Tigers, Panthers, Sturmgeshutz at least, I think the Panzerjager 4, Jagdpanther and Jagdtiger also had them. They had fragmentation and smoke rounds for this mortar.

 

The Tigers were the first equipped with them. Prior to late 1943, early 1944 the Tigers were equipped with S-mines, these were basically grenades that could be launched surrounding the tank (kind of like a 360' smoke discharger but with frag grenades instead of smoke).

 

First British and then American Shemans carried a 2" "mortar that had smoke rounds.

 

Both the German and British mortars were more like flareguns mounted through the armor and could be aimed roughly by pointing it in the right direction and adjusting for range, both could be reloaded from inside the tank although in theory it created a small hole through the armor when the breach was opened.

[Susano]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

IIRC' date=' some of the Tigers and King Tigers carried a close quarters mortar or grenade launcher of some sort, which served the same purpose as the canister rounds on American tanks.[/quote']

 

Having looked over some of my resources, I've come to the conclusion you could write a book as thick as the HSVS just on WWII German armor alone (and their options). Heck, just on German panzers and panzer variants!

[Toadmaster]

Re: Actung! Panzer!

 

Having looked over some of my resources' date=' I've come to the conclusion you could write a book as thick as the HSVS [b']just[/b] on WWII German armor alone (and their options). Heck, just on German panzers and panzer variants!

 

What do you mean could, several have.

 

I believe Spielburger (sp?) did a series on the various Panzers (1,2,3,4 Panther, Tiger) each book was just one series and its variants (Panzer 4, Jagdpanzer4, Brumbar, Wirbelwind etc), each book is about the size of the HSVS. You occasionally can find them at places like Borders or on ebay but they are not exactly in regular print.

 

Sadly none are as reasonably priced as HERO's products.