Rage-Enhanced Strength

[tesuji]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

I see your points, tesuji, and they make a lot of sense. I agree that "self only" is too cheap for Aid, because "others only" (also -1/2) has unlimited "others" that it can be used on, but Self Only is just one person. Limited Characteristics makes more sense in some circumstances.

 

FWIW, another issue to consider is the built in "no figured characteristics" and frankly, the flat price for no figs at -1/2.

 

The difference between 30 pts of strength and 30 ap of strength bought -1/2 no figs is 10 cp. The loss in figs is worth 30 pts.

 

Do the same with con and we still have 10 cp left but the dif in figs is 31 cp.

 

Do the same with body, the price is still 10 cp dif but the figs are only 15 cp.

 

Do the same with dex, the dif in cost is 10 cp but the figs are only worth 10 cp.

 

It seems to me that the impact of (-1/2 no figs) varies from 10-30 pts of lost figs on the same ap balue of characteristic.

 

If -1/2 is right for dex no figs, then it looks like strength should be -1 or more.

 

Thats an interesting foray into the realm of the HERO notion of "fixed value limitations and modifiers" in general but lets be very specific as to how it applies here and not go all broader scope-y.

 

Adjustment powers provide attribute that are by default NO FIGS.

 

If i have 2d6 AID to INT, i get 2d6 INT. I get all the benefits of 2d6 INT.

if i have 2d6 ADI dtrength, i get 2d6 strength with NO FIGS.

 

Its a flawed process to set the amount of gain (or loss) from adjustment powers on the price of the characteristic (price set by the figs gained among other things) when the boosted points are not including figs.

 

These are just some of the reasons i try and avoid usinf adjustment powers for constructing "conditional characteristics" whenever possible. Its not just "self only" thats wierd, its not only "no figs" that off, but the underlying mechanic for figuring out how much you get is just plain wrong.

 

All this, i guess, IMO.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

FWIW, another issue to consider is the built in "no figured characteristics" and frankly, the flat price for no figs at -1/2.

 

The difference between 30 pts of strength and 30 ap of strength bought -1/2 no figs is 10 cp. The loss in figs is worth 30 pts.

 

Do the same with con and we still have 10 cp left but the dif in figs is 31 cp.

 

Do the same with body, the price is still 10 cp dif but the figs are only 15 cp.

 

Do the same with dex, the dif in cost is 10 cp but the figs are only worth 10 cp.

 

It seems to me that the impact of (-1/2 no figs) varies from 10-30 pts of lost figs on the same ap balue of characteristic.

 

If -1/2 is right for dex no figs, then it looks like strength should be -1 or more.

 

Thats an interesting foray into the realm of the HERO notion of "fixed value limitations and modifiers" in general but lets be very specific as to how it applies here and not go all broader scope-y.

 

Adjustment powers provide attribute that are by default NO FIGS.

 

If i have 2d6 AID to INT, i get 2d6 INT. I get all the benefits of 2d6 INT.

if i have 2d6 ADI dtrength, i get 2d6 strength with NO FIGS.

 

Its a flawed process to set the amount of gain (or loss) from adjustment powers on the price of the characteristic (price set by the figs gained among other things) when the boosted points are not including figs.

 

These are just some of the reasons i try and avoid usinf adjustment powers for constructing "conditional characteristics" whenever possible. Its not just "self only" thats wierd, its not only "no figs" that off, but the underlying mechanic for figuring out how much you get is just plain wrong.

 

All this, i guess, IMO.

Good points Tesuji on the NFC (No Fig Cha) but I think some of it might simply be expediancy; -1/2 takes into account the relative non penalty with DEX bought NFC as opposed to STR bought NFC.

 

But your way isn't any more complex when I think about it, however I might say:

 

DEX & BODY NFC -1/4

STR & CON NFC -1/2

 

rather than giving a bigger bonus to STR having NCM. If only because I don't want to hear from the "STR is too cheap" crowd

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

You could certainly make a case for the Limitation varying from characteristic to characteristic; but then you get into the issue of the relative value of one Characteristic compared to another, and whether a given Characteristic is "priced right" and how to "fix" it. That's a whole 'nother can of worms, with little concensus among HERO gamers. Going that route would also tend to complicate builds if you're going to buy multiple Characteristics this way, especially if they're derived from the same source, such as a Focus like powered armor. Come to think of it, that might have something to do with the "Defender Feat" of not applying Normal Characteristic Maxima to Characteristics bought as Powers; more details to keep track of.

 

I'm pretty sure detail is one of the reasons why all the Aided Characteristics don't affect Figured as the default. Constantly having to recalculate Figured Char. every time a Primary is Aided or Drained, plus factor in the Fade Rate, would really slow down play (which some people complain about already).

 

I think that any attempt to precisely point-balance all of these details will hit a point of diminishing returns; you need to decide where to smooth over some of the smaller inequities to facilitate the playability of the game as a whole. The game designer has obviously drawn his own line, but a GM can always move it if he prefers.

[tesuji]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

 

I'm pretty sure detail is one of the reasons why all the Aided Characteristics don't affect Figured as the default. Constantly having to recalculate Figured Char. every time a Primary is Aided or Drained, plus factor in the Fade Rate, would really slow down play (which some people complain about already).

You would not need to make aided/adjusted characteristics affect figs to address this problem.

 

All you would need to do is to apply the no figs lim, at an appropriate value, to the process.

 

There are TWO possibilities, one easy, the other easier.

 

EASy: Adjustment powers affect RP not AP of characteristics. AID strength generates 2d6 CP of strength, not 2d6 ap of strength. Since that strength is NFC (which for right now say is -1/2) that means 7 cp of aid strength gives you 10 ap of strength.

 

VERY EASY: Avoid in play math (even tho as every HERo guy knows HERo math is easy, right?) by applying the limitation to the AID itself in CHARGEN. AID strength automatically takes -1/2 (or whatever the right value for that is) for the fact that the strength is NFC. AID INT would not get that because INT has no figs.

 

Take a look at what the VERY EASY option does...

 

10 pts of int = 10 cp.

10 pts of NFC strength = 7 cp.

 

1d6 od AID INT with up to 10 ap of effect = 12 ap & 12 cp.

1d6 of AID strength (NFC) with up to 10 ap of effect = 12 ap & 8 rp after applying a -1/2 NFC lim to the aid.

 

Since all the "balancing" is applied in chargen, there is nothing to slow down play.

 

Similarly, the process could work the same for any adjustment power, apply the smallest NFC limit applicable, assuming the system decides to recognize the variance.

I think that any attempt to precisely point-balance all of these details will hit a point of diminishing returns; you need to decide where to smooth over some of the smaller inequities to facilitate the playability of the game as a whole. The game designer has obviously drawn his own line, but a GM can always move it if he prefers.

 

In a game where the lims go down to -1/4, i would not think the line of "precisely point balance" sacridice for playability would need to stretch this broadly. (I would of course be willing to consider that -1/4 is itself "too fine a comb" but as long as it remains the minimum benchmark...)