Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I think you should keep halving armor from FW and modified damage from hit locations seperate. Combining them as you have here is confusing the issue.

 

As others in this thread have pointed out, Find Weakness is not any one thing. One player could make his FW roll to notice gaps in armor plating against one character, fluctuating weak spots in a force field against another, and determining the pace of a third character, allowing the player to time his shot just right for better damage. Actually hitting a weak spot in armor, which seems to be the way you think of FW, is only one possible option. Remember, this is Find Weakness, which isn't necessarily the same as find gaps in armor, or find weak spots in force field. Though it could be, depending on the FX of the defender...

 

Since you asked for an example...

 

An attacker with a bow and FW makes his FW roll. He notices a tendency in the way his opponent with sectional defenses moves in combat, and can take advantage of this fact with his bow. So he attacks and hits his opponent with sectional defenses just as the opponent is moving towards the attack. This increases the amount of energy in the attack and decreases the effectivness of any armor against the attack. So even if the attacker hits the toe or finger, the movement towards the attack still causes any armor to be less effective.

I do appreciate your interest and I appologize to you ahead of time and anyone else I might be offending but...

 

I have already shown the flaw in a similar special effect description. I think you are about the 3rd or 4th person who has tried to make a power out of the Analyze Style skill which can give OCV/DCV bonuses which in turn could be used towards hit location penalties or increasing weapon damage directly. The important point is that increasing the energy of an attack and lowering the defenses against damage from the attack are two completely seperate things. Nothing about that special effect demands the use of Find Weakness if Hit Location rules are already being used.

 

Please read the entire thread.

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I personally do not believe FWeak requires any house rules for use with hit locations. You believe differently. The only reason I suggested additional options for FWeak is because of obvious interest in this thread, additional options with FWeakness would be nice. Not necessary however. It works perfectly fine with hit locations, and the house rule to correct the problem is extremely simple (no FWeakness) while the reverse is not true (Drain/Suppress Only Against Me).

 

I should mention, your work arounds methods of duplicating FWeakness with PSL vs HL rolls only work if the target actually has a weak hit location. With sectional defenses, it is possible to eliminate this making every HL very very similar. But even that unusual case aside, even if I do have +8 PSL vs HL, that doesn't help me all that much against an unknown opponent whose armor may be unusually distributed. I can't "find" his weakness with your model, only exploit it once I've found it through other means.

 

Further, I would like to mention that FWeakness is considered an Unusual Sense and subject to the normal rules for senses in that it can be flashed, etc. And I'm not even sure what GM in his right mind allowed FW at the -19 level. Might as well let them make it an OAF gun, +5 pts for second gun and MPA too, so they can quarter defenses every phase. Hmm, how about Autofire too? Or Area Effect? That's just rampantly stupid, although I can see an inexperienced GM letting that slip through. I know I missed many very abusive constructs when I started.

 

Conclusion: FWeakness is fine. It would be nice if it had more options so as to be more flexible. This would also, as a side effect, make it simplier to house rule in HL campaigns should the GM feel that is necessary. If not, just exercise a little GM fiat.

[sbarron]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I have already shown the flaw in a similar special effect description. I think you are about the 3rd or 4th person who has tried to make a power out of the Analyze Style skill which can give OCV/DCV bonuses which in turn could be used towards hit location penalties or increasing weapon damage directly. The important point is that increasing the energy of an attack and lowering the defenses against damage from the attack are two completely seperate things. Nothing about that special effect demands the use of Find Weakness if Hit Location rules are already being used.

 

Please read the entire thread.

 

I have read the entire thead, a couple of times actually. It was very difficult to figure out exactly what your point is in all of this. I thought I had distilled it down to the quote I used above, but I guess not. At first your position seemed to be that it was double dipping to have FW and hit locations (or could be). Then you said the effect of FW can be replicated by AP. Here you're saying you can get a similar effect out of analyze style.

 

It's interesting that you've had 3 or 4 people describe FW as a power that is similar to analyze style, except that it's more powerful. Analze style can get you what, +2 levels total? That is a long way from FW's Halving Defenses. So in a sense, I guess FW could be considered the powered up version of analyze style.

 

Do you see above how you lumped halving armor and damge that is modified by hit location into being the same thing again? They are not the same thing. FW is about making armor less effective. Why it makes it so is completely unrelated to hit locations. Attacks that have more energy, find weak spots in armor, or whatever, are just the special effects of how FW works.

 

And yes, you could have one character with FW who is very effective against bricks, and another character with a boat load of CSL that uses hit locations to beat bricks. You could even have a character with both. There are many ways to represent abilities in Hero. Here is a place with some overlap. I don't see the problem.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I have read the entire thead, a couple of times actually. It was very difficult to figure out exactly what your point is in all of this. I thought I had distilled it down to the quote I used above, but I guess not. At first your position seemed to be that it was double dipping to have FW and hit locations (or could be). Then you said the effect of FW can be replicated by AP. Here you're saying you can get a similar effect out of analyze style.

 

It's interesting that you've had 3 or 4 people describe FW as a power that is similar to analyze style, except that it's more powerful. Analze style can get you what, +2 levels total? That is a long way from FW's Halving Defenses. So in a sense, I guess FW could be considered the powered up version of analyze style.

 

Do you see above how you lumped halving armor and damge that is modified by hit location into being the same thing again? They are not the same thing. FW is about making armor less effective. Why it makes it so is completely unrelated to hit locations. Attacks that have more energy, find weak spots in armor, or whatever, are just the special effects of how FW works.

 

And yes, you could have one character with FW who is very effective against bricks, and another character with a boat load of CSL that uses hit locations to beat bricks. You could even have a character with both. There are many ways to represent abilities in Hero. Here is a place with some overlap. I don't see the problem.

The point or challenge to posters on this thread that I have made and have yet to see a valid argument against is the following:

Without the use of some

house rule

tied to the Hit Location rules it is not possible to explain the use of Find Weakness AND Hit Location rules at the same time vs. a target with sectional defenses

when not actually making a targeted shot

.

I have still not seen any description of an effect that deals with this without using a house rule to explain it.

[sbarron]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Without the use of some house rule tied to the Hit Location rules it is not possible to explain the use of Find Weakness AND Hit Location rules at the same time vs. a target with sectional defenses when not actually making a targeted shot.

I have still not seen any description of an effect that deals with this without using a house rule to explain it.

 

If you haven't seen it, I think it's because you are looking for the wrong thing. As I stated above, Find Weakness is not just finding gaps in armor. From your posts, I get the impression you see FW as finding a weak (hit?) location in armor and then targeting that weak location. Which does seem very similar to hit locations. So in your mind targeting the unarmed or lesser armed hit locations, or just targeting the head or vitals, is the same thing as FW. But I think that's the wrong way to look at it.

 

Finding a weakness could mean anything. A disadvantage in the way your opponent moves, the fluctuation in his force field, or as above, weak spots in his armor. Try stepping back from looking at the armor actually defending the opponent. It's not important for FW, other than to help describe the FX of the weakness. FW allows its user to makes his opponents armor less effective. How it does this in game will probably depend on the type of armor, or lack there-of, that it is being used against. But again, that is just FX.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

If you haven't seen it, I think it's because you are looking for the wrong thing. As I stated above, Find Weakness is not just finding gaps in armor. From your posts, I get the impression you see FW as finding a weak (hit?) location in armor and then targeting that weak location. Which does seem very similar to hit locations. So in your mind targeting the unarmed or lesser armed hit locations, or just targeting the head or vitals, is the same thing as FW. But I think that's the wrong way to look at it.

 

Finding a weakness could mean anything. A disadvantage in the way your opponent moves, the fluctuation in his force field, or as above, weak spots in his armor. Try stepping back from looking at the armor actually defending the opponent. It's not important for FW, other than to help describe the FX of the weakness. FW allows its user to makes his opponents armor less effective. How it does this in game will probably depend on the type of armor, or lack there-of, that it is being used against. But again, that is just FX.

I am looking at your choice of words to describe each effect and in each case the specific choice already implies a special effect that I have described.

• opponent moves: This has already been covered.
  
• force field: This would not usually apply to the sectional defenses test case I have presented since I have never heard of sectional a sectional coverage Force Field, but I suppose you could buy FF with sectional coverage but then the argument is exactly the same as the orginal test case I have presented.
  
• weak spots: If the word spot does not equate to location in your mind I don't know what else I can possibly say?!?
  

If the sectional and overall weakness are 2 different things. if you allow sectional defenses you can't find an overall weakness in those defenses since they are by definition NOT uniform overall.

 

If you define the characters ability as an enhancement to his attack that makes his attack reduce what ever defenses it applies to you then have the Armor Piercing advantage! This can easily be built as a naked advantage and applied to different attacks.

 

Let me restate for the record once again. I am not opposed to the use of Find Weakness in games. I am only against using it in a game that already uses Hit locations.

 

Edit: to further my earlier suggestion that Find Weakness might better be described as a Super-Skill take a look at this post on another thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=340454&postcount=27

 

I am not 100% positive that there is not a special effect description that meets the test case but no one has put one forth yet.

[sbarron]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

If the sectional and overall weakness are 2 different things. if you allow sectional defenses you can't find an overall weakness in those defenses since they are by definition NOT uniform overall.

 

That's just it. Who said that FW only finds an overall weakness in one type of armor? Or only uniform types of armor? FW finds weaknesses in opponents, and those weaknesses might be his armor, it might be the way he fights, it could be any one thing, or could be several things at once. FW is the ability to find and exploit weaknesses. How that actually happens will vary from opponent to opponent.

 

That's why saying you've covered each of the examples I gave earlier misses the point. FW can and does do all of those things at once. It can have the effect of AP, by describing it as taking advantage of some flaw in the armor. It could be similar to analyze style, in that you take advantage of the way your opponent moves. It could be similar to hit locations, in that you target a weak spot. FW gives the character the ability to notice all of those things at once. He finds the weakness.

 

You're sectional armor example is no different. By making his FW roll, the PC might notice weaknesses in the armor plating that Sectional Man is wearing. He also might notice that Sectional Man moves in a way that can be taken advantage of to half his defenses, even if he is hit in the hand where he has no armor. And if Sectional Man has a partial coverage Force Field, then the PC might notice fluctuations that can be exploited in that, too. The weaknesses he actually finds are up to the GM and the player. But FW is the ability to find those weaknesses, whatever they might be.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

That's just it. Who said that FW only finds an overall weakness in one type of armor? Or only uniform types of armor? FW finds weaknesses in opponents, and those weaknesses might be his armor, it might be the way he fights, it could be any one thing, or could be several things at once. FW is the ability to find and exploit weaknesses. How that actually happens will vary from opponent to opponent.

 

That's why saying you've covered each of the examples I gave earlier misses the point. FW can and does do all of those things at once. It can have the effect of AP, by describing it as taking advantage of some flaw in the armor. It could be similar to analyze style, in that you take advantage of the way your opponent moves. It could be similar to hit locations, in that you target a weak spot. FW gives the character the ability to notice all of those things at once. He finds the weakness.

 

You're sectional armor example is no different. By making his FW roll, the PC might notice weaknesses in the armor plating that Sectional Man is wearing. He also might notice that Sectional Man moves in a way that can be taken advantage of to half his defenses, even if he is hit in the hand where he has no armor. And if Sectional Man has a partial coverage Force Field, then the PC might notice fluctuations that can be exploited in that, too. The weaknesses he actually finds are up to the GM and the player. But FW is the ability to find those weaknesses, whatever they might be.

What exactly is the special effect of your cover every possible angle version Find Weakness then exactly?

 

If you could describe a specific special effect you would have convinced me already. But you appear to be avoiding any attempt at doing this.

 

Also,

Have you actually thought through a combat? FWMan decides he is going to attack Sectional Man. FWMan makes his FW roll. This takes place before he has even made an attack roll let alone a Hit location roll. What SPECIFIC DEFENSE is he halving? Oh wait, we have to wait until we roll Hit location before we answer that.

 

Let's add another wrinkle. Let's make Sectional Man's armor have built in Lack of weakness for its defenses (it has hardened too)., The special effect is quality workmanship and materials, no magical conveyance to the rest of his defenses. Now, if we repeat the combat example above we can't even determine if the FW roll is a sucess until we roll to hit or roll hit location? This make absolutely no sense whatever!!

 

However if I change the attack to Armor Piercing it is simple to half any defenses that are not hardened and use the hardened portion normally!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Hmmm. Interesting as the discussion has been to read I'm not sure you are arguing about a wide application power (that was once a skill) that is not conducive to detailed applications - kind of like affect desolid.

 

Perhaps you want to allow people to buy find weakness only if they define the special effects in advance (and also buy lack of weakness only with a special effect).

 

Personally I don't like to use them together except when I change the rules of the Find Weakness. When I use Find Weakness with hit locations I rule that each successful application of Find Weakness allows the attacker to modify the to hit roll be 1. To me that means that the Find Weakness allows the attacker to better apply the effects of any hits that he scores - vitals rather than leg etc etc.

 

Doc

[BNakagawa]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Why does Find Weakness work on defenses with invisible power effects?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

There is the idea that find weakness hits all the locations, you see every weakspot, and then you hit which weak spot presents itself (i.e. the leg can be hit, so you hit the weakspot on the leg).

 

Also it is the special effect of hit location. You don't fire and "whoops I was just shooting and hit the hand"; you are shooting, and the hand is the only target that you can actually hit (special effects wise), taking an opportunity to hit what is available. That is why the hit location penalties are so high, it's not the size of the target, it is the fact you have to get through thier combat defenses to get to that shot.

 

I've used hit locations, sectional defense, and find weakness together in my FH game (albiet not very often) and I have never had an imersion disconnect or a "huh?" reaction to the combination, and never really saw a problem.

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

What exactly is the special effect of your cover every possible angle version Find Weakness then exactly?

 

If you could describe a specific special effect you would have convinced me already. But you appear to be avoiding any attempt at doing this.

I already suggested one, but rather than accepting it, you choose to find a different way to build it, one that required an unusual limitation, to describe it mildly. I'm sure you could find alternate ways of building just about any power anyone could care to name. That doesn't argue for the removal of a power. Otherwise we'd better get rid of everything except Transform.

 

Also,

Have you actually thought through a combat? FWMan decides he is going to attack Sectional Man. FWMan makes his FW roll. This takes place before he has even made an attack roll let alone a Hit location roll. What SPECIFIC DEFENSE is he halving? Oh wait, we have to wait until we roll Hit location before we answer that.

Whatever defense he has targeted with FWeakness. Check out the FAQ and search on "counterpart". That's the Q&A you want. So if he targets Normal defenses, all normal defenses, no matter in how many sections, are affected.

 

Let's add another wrinkle. Let's make Sectional Man's armor have built in Lack of weakness for its defenses (it has hardened too)., The special effect is quality workmanship and materials, no magical conveyance to the rest of his defenses. Now, if we repeat the combat example above we can't even determine if the FW roll is a sucess until we roll to hit or roll hit location? This make absolutely no sense whatever!!

You know immediately whether FWeak worked or not. The LoW penalty applies to the roll when he makes it. If a LoW defense is being affected by FWeakness, it penalizes the roll. If FWMan targets a defense with LoW he gets penalized, period. If he doesn't, he doesn't.

 

However if I change the attack to Armor Piercing it is simple to half any defenses that are not hardened and use the hardened portion normally!

True, except it isn't the same effect.

1. No Skill Roll required (could be added, sorta)
   
2. Not cumulative (impossible to duplicate with AP)
   
3. Halves more defenses than FWeakness since you must target Normal and Resistant defenses separately
   
4. Does not require a separate action to "activate" the AP (can work around too)
   
5. AP would apply to all targets, not just one on whom you'd made a SR
   
6. Even if you add a SR to AP, failing it doesn't prevent you from trying again
   

 

You don't want FWeakness in your campaigns, fine, don't use it. I don't see any good arguements from you that I should remove it from mine.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I already suggested one, but rather than accepting it, you choose to find a different way to build it, one that required an unusual limitation, to describe it mildly. I'm sure you could find alternate ways of building just about any power anyone could care to name. That doesn't argue for the removal of a power. Otherwise we'd better get rid of everything except Transform.

 

 

Whatever defense he has targeted with FWeakness. Check out the FAQ and search on "counterpart". That's the Q&A you want. So if he targets Normal defenses, all normal defenses, no matter in how many sections, are affected.

 

 

You know immediately whether FWeak worked or not. The LoW penalty applies to the roll when he makes it. If a LoW defense is being affected by FWeakness, it penalizes the roll. If FWMan targets a defense with LoW he gets penalized, period. If he doesn't, he doesn't.

 

 

True, except it isn't the same effect.

1. No Skill Roll required (could be added, sorta)
   
2. Not cumulative (impossible to duplicate with AP)
   
3. Halves more defenses than FWeakness since you must target Normal and Resistant defenses separately
   
4. Does not require a separate action to "activate" the AP (can work around too)
   
5. AP would apply to all targets, not just one on whom you'd made a SR
   
6. Even if you add a SR to AP, failing it doesn't prevent you from trying again
   

You don't want FWeakness in your campaigns, fine, don't use it. I don't see any good arguements from you that I should remove it from mine.

Again, let me repeat!

I am not against the use of Find Weakness, only its use in COMBINATION with Hit Location rules!!

 

 

 

The FAQ makes no mention of sectional defenses so explain how the following example makes sense WITHOUT A HOUSE RULE:

 

Sectional Man forgot his suit today. All he has with him is his Helmet that provides 8 resistant defenses, hardened and 8 points lack of weakness only for the locations it defends (-1.5). A hit location roll MUST be made before FW.

 

Are you saying that I can't take a limitation on Lack of Weakness? There is no mention of it in the FAQ.

 

 

 

 

Let's use the same example without using Hit Location rules:

 

Activate

Man's Helmet provides 8 defense hardened and 8 points lack of weakness and ALL OF IT is on an activate roll (8-?, 6-, 5- the number does not matter). Regardless of whether FWman chooses to target resistant or normal defenses, the determinaton of whether my helmet works against his roll can't be determined until MY activate roll is made.

 

 

Yes this sounds clunky but is perfectly legal within current rules, but forcing me to make a hit location roll for an attack that has not even been fired yet does not make sense.

 

 

Every other defense allows for the use of activate rolls with no problem. Are you now going to argue that Lack of Weakness is the lone exception to this?

[sbarron]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I'm going to agree with Zanthis, the FAQ does clear this up somewhat. I obviously need to read the FAQ more often. It deals pretty well with Sectional Defense guy that has Lack of Weakness on resistant defenses, but gets hit in his undefended hand.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I'm going to agree with Zanthis' date=' the FAQ does clear this up somewhat. I obviously need to read the FAQ more often. It deals pretty well with Sectional Defense guy that has Lack of Weakness on resistant defenses, but gets hit in his undefended hand.[/quote']

 

Please point out what part of the FAQ mentions sectional defenses?

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Again' date=' let me repeat![/color']

I am not against the use of Find Weakness, only its use in COMBINATION with Hit Location rules!!

And my point is, do what you will in your own campaign. I'm fine with FWeak and Hit locations. Not only that, I'm also fine with you not using FWeak with hit locations in your campaigns. I am not fine with your suggestion the two should official be disallowed in conjunction across the board.

 

The FAQ makes no mention of sectional defenses so explain how the following example makes sense WITHOUT A HOUSE RULE:

{{{EXAMPLE SNIPPED}}}

Are you saying that I can't take a limitation [protects only a specific location] on Lack of Weakness? There is no mention of it in the FAQ.

Actually, there is, albeit indirectly. And the answer is No, you can't take that limitation. And the reason is because Find Weakness does not use hit locations (it's a special/sensory power) and as a result that limitation isn't limiting. In Sectional Man's case, any Find Weakness roll against Resistant Defenses will have to get through the -8 LoW from his Helmet; no hit roll is required.

 

Activate Man's Helmet provides 8 defense hardened and 8 points lack of weakness and ALL OF IT is on an activate roll (8-?, 6-, 5- the number does not matter). Regardless of whether FWman chooses to target resistant or normal defenses, the determinaton of whether my helmet works against his roll can't be determined until MY activate roll is made.

You treat it like you would any other power with that limitation. Activate Man rolls to activate his LoW each phase he wishes to use it. If he succeeded in his last roll then he gets to apply it against the FWeakness attack. Otherwise he doesn't. If you are handling "covers limited areas" SFX Activation Rolls on a per hit bases, then you'll need to house rule the situation, but since you're already using house rules at that point, I don't see the problem. I'd recommend: Roll the activation as soon as the FWeakness attack is declared (assuming the LoW in question covers the defense targeted by the FWeakness) and if it succeeds then the FWeak roll is penalized, otherwise it isn't.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Okay, I give up. I just got off work and my eyes hurt, so for now I'm just gonna skip the previous page or so of posts. So here's hoping I don't turn into a donky or something...

 

Here's what I see (not yet looking at the FAQ, which I find confusing): The mechanics of Find Weakness and Hit Locations aren't mutually exclusive. It's only when you start applying SFX to Find Weakness that there seems to be a problem. The problem would be the SFX being used.

 

At this point, it's becomes a matter of reasoning from effect, and the Find Weakness would need to be built differently (either with Modifiers, or with other Powers).

 

As for proving the functionality of combinging Find Weakness with Hit Locations (with or without Sectional Defenses), that's easy. If the attacker makes his roll, the target's defenses are halved. He rolls to hit. If successfull, he rolls hit location, and the defenses of that location are halved. No problem.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have any examples of Find Weakness in a game that used Hit Locations and Sectional Defenses, but I can probably come up with one (I'm co-running such a campaign, all I need to do is add Find Weakness). There is a ninja character in my Champions game with Find Weakness defines as a spell he uses to allow his physical attacks to partially ignore a target's defenses. I suppose this particular SFX wouldn't have any conflict with sectional defenses, but I haven't tested it in such a situation.

 

Now... Have I missed anything?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

 

Actually, there is, albeit indirectly. And the answer is No, you can't take that limitation. And the reason is because Find Weakness does not use hit locations (it's a special/sensory power) and as a result that limitation isn't limiting. In Sectional Man's case, any Find Weakness roll against Resistant Defenses will have to get through the -8 LoW from his Helmet; no hit roll is required.

I did not build Sectional Man's Lack of Weakness with an activate roll, I built it as part of the focus that only affects the defenses it provides to the character. By default the Hit Location IS its activate roll.

 

 

You treat it like you would any other power with that limitation. Activate Man rolls to activate his LoW each phase he wishes to use it. If he succeeded in his last roll then he gets to apply it against the FWeakness attack. Otherwise he doesn't. If you are handling "covers limited areas" SFX Activation Rolls on a per hit bases, then you'll need to house rule the situation, but since you're already using house rules at that point, I don't see the problem. I'd recommend: Roll the activation as soon as the FWeakness attack is declared (assuming the LoW in question covers the defense targeted by the FWeakness) and if it succeeds then the FWeak roll is penalized, otherwise it isn't.

nope, I am not doing anything that is a house rule effect.

 

read the FAQ's:

 

Q: If a power only functions when another power makes its Activation Roll, does the second power qualify for a Linked Limitation (for the standard or reduced value)?

 

A: Yes. A power that can work only when another power succeeds with an Activation Roll should take Linked as per normal — the character makes the roll once for the base power, and if he succeeds the Linked power activates as well. The Linked power should not have an Activation Roll of its own unless the character needs to make a second, separate, roll to activate it when it’s possible to do so.

 

Q: How long does it take to make an Activation Roll?

 

A: Typically it’s a Zero-Phase Action, but in some cases (such as when a character checks to see if a Defense Power protects him from an attack) it’s an Action that takes no time.

Sectional Man's helmet has Lack of Weakness Linked to the Armor protection it provides. Nothing in the rules state that you can't put that limitation on that power. It is NOT a house rule!

 

Activate Man's similar special effect helmet has an activate roll on a defensive power. the FAQ clearly states that the activate roll is not made until an attack is made. NOT a house rule!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Sectional Man forgot his suit today. All he has with him is his Helmet that provides 8 resistant defenses' date=' hardened and 8 points lack of weakness only for the locations it defends (-1.5). A hit location roll MUST be made before FW. [/quote']

Ah...

 

This get's tricky... very tricky...

 

First, I won't go so far as to say a hit location roll MUST be make first. This is definately something not in the rules (anywhere I can find) and probably never anticipated. I don't think it requires rewriting the roll secquence. As an absolute rule, the Find Weakness roll must, absolutle, MUST be made before the attack roll. You can't even roll for hit location unless the attack hits.

 

Now, this isn't a rule, nor should it be, but here's how I'd handle this situation. I'm assuming that the Find Weakness has no Limitations, and that the Lack of Weakness applies to the defenses affected by the Attack and it only protects the defenses provided by the helmet, and not the natural defenses of the target's head. I'm also not giving a crap about SFX.

 

Your attacker decides to use Find Weakness. If the roll is successful, I check to see how much the roll was made by. If it would have succeeded with the penalty from the helmet, no worries (except for the target). If not, then only the helmet's defenses aren't halved (though those of the head would be). After taking a mental not of this (or writing it down), you determine hit location.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

....Now, this isn't a rule, nor should it be, but here's how I'd handle this situation. I'm assuming that the Find Weakness has no Limitations, and that the Lack of Weakness applies to the defenses affected by the Attack and it only protects the defenses provided by the helmet, and not the natural defenses of the target's head. I'm also not giving a crap about SFX.

 

Your attacker decides to use Find Weakness. If the roll is successful, I check to see how much the roll was made by. If it would have succeeded with the penalty from the helmet, no worries (except for the target). If not, then only the helmet's defenses aren't halved (though those of the head would be). After taking a mental not of this (or writing it down), you determine hit location.

I appreciate your input and insights Dust Raven,

 

I am curious to see your interpretation to the other parallel example I posted earlier (regarding Find Weakness when Hit Location rules are NOT being used):

 

Let's use the same example without using Hit Location rules:

Activate Man's Helmet provides 8 defense hardened and 8 points lack of weakness and ALL OF IT is on an activate roll (8-?, 6-, 5- the number does not matter). Regardless of whether FWman chooses to target resistant or normal defenses, the determinaton of whether my helmet works against his roll can't be determined until MY activate roll is made.

 

Yes this sounds clunky but is perfectly legal within current rules...

Let's also clarify the lack of weakness as being linked to the Armored 'helmet' which is the only power that took the activate roll limitation. The FAQ states that both powers are controlled by the single activate roll. Also, I did not define the special effect of Lack of Weakness in either example as only applying to the defenses of the armor itself. I want the armor to provide its FULL protection to the areas of my character's body that it covers. Am I asking for an effect that is too complicated?? I don't think so but it is in direct conflict with your interpretation of the Sectional Man example.

My 'special effect' for the armor in both cases is about as generic as I can think of. I have a helmet of outstanding workmanship and materials. It is not magical and

does not convey anything

to my character if it not between my character and any attack that hits him. Conversly, It gives

full benifit of ALL its powers and effects

when it is between my and an attack that hits him.

Tricky?

If this is not a clear example of what is redundant about using FW and HL rules together, then it is at least an example of how they are clunkier when used together than when not.

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I did not build Sectional Man's Lack of Weakness with an activate roll' date=' I built it as part of the focus that only affects the defenses it provides to the character. By default the Hit Location IS its activate roll.[/quote']

Although Hit Location acts somewhat like an Activation roll, it is not. In the case of Find Weakness, no Hit Location roll is necessary. Find Weakness is a sense, not an attack. When a character looks at someone, do you roll a Hit Location to see what body part they see? The act of using Find Weakness will affect some of the target's defenses. If Find Weakness is used against the Resistant Defenses of Sectional Man, his Helmet is automatically "activated" causing the Linked LoW to take effect.

 

nope, I am not doing anything that is a house rule effect.

I'd tend to disagree, either that or the rules in FRED page 181, second paragraph are extremely unclear. They read, to me at least, that rolls must be actively made whenever the character wishes to use the power, not when he gets hit. Note the use of Phase not Segment and in the FAQ Zero-Phase Action (which can only be performed during a Phase in which you are acting).

 

However, after reading the second question you quoted from the FAQ I can see it was an issue of the FRED being unclear. So you are using the Action That Takes No Time. Alright, no house rule needed then. Just FAQ rules .

 

Sectional Man's helmet has Lack of Weakness Linked to the Armor protection it provides. Nothing in the rules state that you can't put that limitation on that power. It is NOT a house rule!

Yup, not a house rule. But also not a situation that should be causing you this much stress. I explained above how it works.

 

Activate Man's similar special effect helmet has an activate roll on a defensive power. the FAQ clearly states that the activate roll is not made until an attack is made. NOT a house rule!

Got it. However, in Activate Man's case, you'll roll to activate his LoW as soon as FWeakness is used against him, assuming it is targeting the same type of defense the LoW is protected. This is different than Sectional Man's situation because Hit Locations and Activation rolls are not the same.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Although Hit Location acts somewhat like an Activation roll' date=' it is not. In the case of Find Weakness, no Hit Location roll is necessary. Find Weakness is a sense, not an attack. When a character looks at someone, do you roll a Hit Location to see what body part they see? The act of using Find Weakness will affect some of the target's defenses. If Find Weakness is used against the Resistant Defenses of Sectional Man, his Helmet is automatically "activated" causing the Linked LoW to take effect.[/quote'] I am not applying an activate roll directly to Lack of Weakness, I am linking it to another power that has a limited circumstance of when it applies, hit location or activate roll respectfully. The special effect is the same in both cases.

 

Whether Find Weakness is targeting normal or resistant defenses makes no difference in how the roll is resolved. The defenses provided by the helmet in my example apply to BOTH types so again your logic is flawed. If that doesn't convince you how about this, what if the helmet is a football helmet that provides only normal defenses, your argument breaks down completely then.

 

 

I'd tend to disagree, either that or the rules in FRED page 181, second paragraph are extremely unclear. They read, to me at least, that rolls must be actively made whenever the character wishes to use the power, not when he gets hit. Note the use of Phase not Segment and in the FAQ Zero-Phase Action (which can only be performed during a Phase in which you are acting).

 

However, after reading the second question you quoted from the FAQ I can see it was an issue of the FRED being unclear. So you are using the Action That Takes No Time. Alright, no house rule needed then. Just FAQ rules .

hey, I didn't starting bringing in FAQ rules until someone else did first, but they are considered to be part of the official rules.

 

Yup, not a house rule. But also not a situation that should be causing you this much stress. I explained above how it works.

Not causing me any stress at all. But your explaination is flawed, see my earlier clarification.

 

Got it. However, in Activate Man's case, you'll roll to activate his LoW as soon as FWeakness is used against him, assuming it is targeting the same type of defense the LoW is protected. This is different than Sectional Man's situation because Hit Locations and Activation rolls are not the same.

My special effect description for Sectional Man and Activate Man are EXACTLY the same since the activate roll and sectional coverage of armor are describing the same thing.

 

Your 'house rule' interpretation is in effect an attempt to force the FW mechanic to trump the completely valid Lack of Weakness mechanic ONLY when Hit Location rules are used which makes no sense.

 

Take the following common usage of FW:

The phase that the FW roll is made can be different than the phase in which the attack is made. This resolves fine for Activate Man but you refuse to accept that any attempt of FW vs. Sectional Man requires either early resolution of Hit Location before FW can be resolved or extreme record keeping into the future until the actual attack is made and Hit location is resolved. Very clunky compared to the simple activate roll resolution.

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

It seems clear to me from the rules, especially the FAQ on Find Weakness I mentioned earlier, that there is no conflict or problem with sectional defenses and Find Weakness.

 

Sectional Armor: Under normal circumstances armor with this limitation is "activated" through a Hit Location roll. When so "activated" all Linked powers are "activated" as well. Find Weakness is not an attack however, and does not use an attack roll. It is a sense. Targeting someone with Find Weakness will automatically "activate" all sectional armor of the type targeted (normal, resistant, power defense, mental defense, etc). This will result in Linked powers becoming available.

 

Activation Armor: Under normal circumstances armor with this limitation is activated by an activation roll made when the player would like a chance to apply the defense's effects. When targeted by Find Weakness, a player would presumably opt to try and activate their armor which has LoW Linked. Success allows the LoW to reduce the chance of success on the Find Weakness. Failure means the Find Weakness is not penalized by the Linked LoW modifier.

 

I really don't find the situation overly complex or exotic. Careful reading of the rules and especially FAQ has cleared the situation up for me. I don't really know what else I can say at this point except to recommend you ask Steve using a short example like your Sectional Man and Activation Man. He seems to prefer yes/no questions and if you ask anything more complex you'll probably get a "see FRED page xx and/or FAQ".

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

It seems clear to me from the rules, especially the FAQ on Find Weakness I mentioned earlier, that there is no conflict or problem with sectional defenses and Find Weakness.

 

Sectional Armor: Under normal circumstances armor with this limitation is "activated" through a Hit Location roll. When so "activated" all Linked powers are "activated" as well. Find Weakness is not an attack however, and does not use an attack roll. It is a sense. Targeting someone with Find Weakness will automatically "activate" all sectional armor of the type targeted (normal, resistant, power defense, mental defense, etc). This will result in Linked powers becoming available.

 

Activation Armor: Under normal circumstances armor with this limitation is activated by an activation roll made when the player would like a chance to apply the defense's effects. When targeted by Find Weakness, a player would presumably opt to try and activate their armor which has LoW Linked. Success allows the LoW to reduce the chance of success on the Find Weakness. Failure means the Find Weakness is not penalized by the Linked LoW modifier.

 

I really don't find the situation overly complex or exotic. Careful reading of the rules and especially FAQ has cleared the situation up for me. I don't really know what else I can say at this point except to recommend you ask Steve using a short example like your Sectional Man and Activation Man. He seems to prefer yes/no questions and if you ask anything more complex you'll probably get a "see FRED page xx and/or FAQ".

Ok, I see what you are getting hung up on with senses.

 

Let's say Special Senses Man has a special N-Ray vision power he calls 'Wammo-vision'. Wammo-vision is only blocked by one substance: "Silly Putty".

example 1

A stupid villian decides to hide several bombs in a city and encase them in Silly Putty thinking this would hide them from Special Senses Man. It does just the opposite because now he can clearly see several similar sized objects that stand out against everything else via his Wammo-Vision.

example 2

A not so stupid villian later takes the same idea but build additional devices to cloak the presense of the Silly Putty. This is bought as IPE on the Silly Putty. Now Special Senses Man has no short cut to search the city and find the bombs as before.

Now back to Find Weakness and Lack of Weakness.

 

You are trying to make Lack of Weakness work like Silly Putty in example 1 and it obviously does not. It has to work like example 2. As a defensive power, Lack of Weakness has to be considered to have a built in IPE vs. Find Weakness. Find Weakness by itself does not give the ability to detect Lack of Weakness, it is instead trying to look for the weakness (or bomb in the example) that it is in turn hiding.

[sbarron]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Please point out what part of the FAQ mentions sectional defenses?

Here you go...

Q: When a character uses Find Weakness, does he halve all of the target’s defenses, or just specific ones?

 

A: Find Weakness works similarly to its counterpart, Lack Of Weakness. When a character decides to Find Weakness, he must choose which of these types of defenses he wants to Find Weakness in:

 

1. The target’s Normal Defenses (PD or ED, including Damage Resistance).

 

2. The target’s Resistant Defenses (such as Armor or Force Field). However, Find Weakness has no effect on Damage Reduction unless the GM specifically permits this.

 

3. At the GM’s discretion, any one of the target’s exotic defenses (such as Mental Defense and Power Defense).

 

So in the example we were using at the time, the one where Sectional Man had armor on parts of his body but not his hands and feet, obviously the PC with FW would use FW on either the resistant defenses (the armor) or the normal defenses (the hands and feet). If the PC halved the armor, but then hit the hands, the defense of the hands wouldn't be havled.

 

I think the subsequent example you came up, the helmet with FW, may be flawed. Lack of Weakness's description starts "a character with Lack of Weakness is tough - it's harder for an opponent to find a weakness in his defenses." Buying FW for specific pieces of armor might be taking FW and LoW too far. Finding weaknesses or having a lack of weaknessnes seems to deal in characters total resistant or total normal defenses, not in specific peices of armor. I think I would rule that you couldn't have sections of armor with LoW and others without. PCs either have LoW or they do not. The problems you are having with find weakness now are because you are trying to make LoW only apply to sections of armor, and only with an activation roll. If the character had LoW for all defenses, without an activation roll, there wouldn't be a problem. But that's me. I haven't seen an official ruling on this, so maybe you can have sections of LoW armor.

 

As a quick aside, having full suites of fitted armor have some LoW might be a good way to encourage PCs to not put together piecemeal suits of armor. But that is for another thread...

 

If you can have sectional LoW, then I'm going to agree again with Zanthis and also Dust Raven. I think you make the rolls when the FW is used, and just make a note of it.