What do you call "Four Color"?

[nexus]

I've been playing superhero games for awhile. And I still get tripped up on what exactly the definition is of a "four color" game. It seems to be, on some level, a personal thing. What makes a game Four Color to you?

[Magmarock]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

To me, Four Color means the heroes are heroes, plain and simple.

 

I don't equate Four Color to any of the 'ages' (i.e. Golden, Silver, or Iron Age; those ones trip me up). While settings such as Dark Champions may have heroic types running around, I don't consider it Four Color either.

 

 

Mags

[Blue]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Yeh, because four color generally applies to the printing process used for making really old comics it tends to be about absolutes, and to apply more to the older comics (Golden Age).

 

You can have a 4-color character in an "Iron age" game, but he's going to be sending a lot of friends to jail and stopping a lot of good guys from doing bad things.

[Pegasus]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

I think, while four color does seem to reflect a certain level of heroism, the dominating factor of four color is the level of fantasy. For example, in a four colr comic book, a radioactive spider bite grants super powers. In the more modern, grittier "realistic" books, cancer ensues.

 

It's the difference between "You will believe a man can fly," and "This highly expensive and technical bodysuit can allow a man to fly for a limited duration."

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

I've been playing superhero games for awhile. And I still get tripped up on what exactly the definition is of a "four color" game. It seems to be' date=' on some level, a personal thing. What makes a game Four Color to you?[/quote']

Clear cut morality, little attempt at realism (including power origins and the treatment of science), small scope, highly serial but "bouncy" continuity, generally unsophisticated. Generally hackneyed and cliched concepts.

[Blue]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

I'd give you more rep for that "man can fly" thing, but the boards won't let me

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Here are the elements I think are key in defining a world as "4-color"...

• Superhero Trappings: The PCs and their adversaries generally wear outlandish costumes, masks, and so on. The necessity of such things is rarely questioned.
  
• The Good Guys Are Good: Heroes don't "sink to the level" of villains. They don't use their powers to kill or to obtain personal wealth, etc. This doesn't have to mean that they're goody-goodies (Batman is still 4-color under this definition)... it just means that dividing line between heroes and villains is clear (usually very clear).
  
• Expanded Suspension Of Scientific Disbelief: Quasi-scientific babblespeak that sounds cool is much more important than actual plausibility. You say a bolt of lightning struck a shelf full of forensics chemicals, resulting in you being able to run at the speed of light? Sounds good!
  
• Expanded Suspension Of Societal Disbelief: Although some 4-color stories touch on the effects of superhumans on society, they're generally no where near as severe as such effects would be in reality.

Plus, of course, the kind of stuff they discuss in the Champions book...

[assault]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Generally hackneyed and cliched concepts.

 

As always, they weren't cliches the first time...

[rjcurrie]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

I think Derek pretty much hit upon my definition of "four color". Personally, I often run what I call "Five Color" Champions -- four color with a touch of gray.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

I think Derek pretty much hit upon my definition of "four color". Personally' date=' I often run what I call "Five Color" Champions -- four color with a touch of gray.[/quote']

I'm working on "six color"--4 color with shades of gray, and the occasional touch of the absurd(my opening run had sharks with laser beams attached to their heads).

 

Or "Justice League meets Adult Swim, as shown on HBO"

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

As always' date=' they weren't cliches the first time...[/quote']

By the Silver Age, there were already a number of cliche's from the Golden Age and pre-Comics pulps and strips.

[Pegasus]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

...Or "Justice League meets Adult Swim' date=' as shown on HBO"[/quote']

 

Am I the only one terrified by this concept?

[Pegasus]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Here are the elements I think are key in defining a world as "4-color"...

• Superhero Trappings: The PCs and their adversaries generally wear outlandish costumes, masks, and so on. The necessity of such things is rarely questioned.
  
• The Good Guys Are Good: Heroes don't "sink to the level" of villains. They don't use their powers to kill or to obtain personal wealth, etc. This doesn't have to mean that they're goody-goodies (Batman is still 4-color under this definition)... it just means that dividing line between heroes and villains is clear (usually very clear).
  
• Expanded Suspension Of Scientific Disbelief: Quasi-scientific babblespeak that sounds cool is much more important than actual plausibility. You say a bolt of lightning struck a shelf full of forensics chemicals, resulting in you being able to run at the speed of light? Sounds good!
  
• Expanded Suspension Of Societal Disbelief: Although some 4-color stories touch on the effects of superhumans on society, they're generally no where near as severe as such effects would be in reality.

 

Bravo, well put! Four points for four color. I say we designate colors per each point and make this the official definition.

 

I'd forgotten number one, and I was just coming back to say something about number four.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

In Champions Aaron Allston discusses the term 'Four-Color'. He says it's "a designation often applied to Golden and Silver Age heroes" and that "A four-color hero typically stands for the "Truth, Justice and the American Way" sorts of ideals". The Golden/Silver Age Four-Color hero is contrasted with the Iron Age 'dark hero'.

[assault]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

By the Silver Age' date=' there were already a number of cliche's from the Golden Age and pre-Comics pulps and strips.[/quote']

 

The Silver Age has nothing to do with it.

 

Lots of cliches emerged during the Golden Age. And, yes, some were taken over from the pulps and strips.

 

But still, there was a distinct streak of originality there.

 

It's entirely possible to break down characters like Superman and Batman into a list of elements "borrowed" from other sources, but the combination is where the originality lies. So, while Batman was a standard pulp detective who happened to where a Superman-style costume, the combination was new.

 

More to the point, the whole set of four colour conventions didn't initially exist. Batman didn't originally have a code against killing. Neither did Robin. Nor, for that matter, did the concept of the teen sidekick really exist before the creation of Robin. All this stuff had to be invented.

 

Speaking of Codes against Killing: Captain America and Bucky didn't have them during WWII. They were quite happy to mow down Japanese and Nazis en masse....

 

And all this stuff was four colour. Literally.

[HeroGM]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

As much grief as the man gets, I think John Byrne's work is a perfect example of 4-color type stuff. There heos are heroes plain and simple. Even villian has a trap the hero actually has to think about.

 

And in 4-Color Batman is the worlds greatest detective, not some psycho ninja.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Clear cut morality' date=' little attempt at realism (including power origins and the treatment of science)[/quote']

 

The vast majority of dark Iron Age comics have a morality just as clear cut as that of the 50s. It's just that it's all shifted several steps to the left. The heroes ignore the law, the bad guys are psychopaths.

 

Millar's Authority are clearly viewed by the writer as being paragons of virtue (though many readers may disagree) while political leaders are portrayed as vile scum. While the positions are reversed from mainstream comics regarding real world authority, it's quite clear who the good guys and bad guys are.

 

The realism thing is more a matter of changing perceptions over time. 50 years from now, our depiction of nanotechnology and AI may be regarded as ridiculously naive. Just as we look upon the radioactive heroes of the 40s-60s.

[TheEmerged]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

I have to disagree with the automatic connection of four-color and the Golden Age. There *are* a lot of Golden Age books that were four-color -- but there were a lot that would fit just as nicely in an Iron Age mentality.

[McCoy]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

I have to disagree with the automatic connection of four-color and the Golden Age. There *are* a lot of Golden Age books that were four-color -- but there were a lot that would fit just as nicely in an Iron Age mentality.

I've always thought of Silver Age as the four-color archtype, the time when the Comics Code Authority dictated a difference between the stories told in the four-color comics and those told in the black-and-white magazines.

[McCoy]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Here are the elements I think are key in defining a world as "4-color"...

• Superhero Trappings: The PCs and their adversaries generally wear outlandish costumes, masks, and so on. The necessity of such things is rarely questioned.
  
• The Good Guys Are Good: Heroes don't "sink to the level" of villains. They don't use their powers to kill or to obtain personal wealth, etc. This doesn't have to mean that they're goody-goodies (Batman is still 4-color under this definition)... it just means that dividing line between heroes and villains is clear (usually very clear).
  
• Expanded Suspension Of Scientific Disbelief: Quasi-scientific babblespeak that sounds cool is much more important than actual plausibility. You say a bolt of lightning struck a shelf full of forensics chemicals, resulting in you being able to run at the speed of light? Sounds good!
  
• Expanded Suspension Of Societal Disbelief: Although some 4-color stories touch on the effects of superhumans on society, they're generally no where near as severe as such effects would be in reality.

Plus, of course, the kind of stuff they discuss in the Champions book...

All of the above, plus

• PG-13 no profanity, and romance beyond holding hands takes place off panel.
  
• Every problem can be solved by violence It's all a matter of finding the right person to hit.
   
  

[Doug McCrae]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

It seems to me that DC characters, particularly those of the early Silver Age, and probably the post 1939 Golden Age are the most 4-colour.

 

Marvel not so much, in any era. They're too hot headed or selfish for the most part. Very early Batman and Superman were outlaws. Late Silver Age DC started to become a bit closer to Marvel.

 

Which leaves us with late GA/early SA DC as the exemplars of 4-colour.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

The Silver Age has nothing to do with it.

 

Lots of cliches emerged during the Golden Age. And, yes, some were taken over from the pulps and strips.

 

But still, there was a distinct streak of originality there.

 

It's entirely possible to break down characters like Superman and Batman into a list of elements "borrowed" from other sources, but the combination is where the originality lies. So, while Batman was a standard pulp detective who happened to where a Superman-style costume, the combination was new.

 

More to the point, the whole set of four colour conventions didn't initially exist. Batman didn't originally have a code against killing. Neither did Robin. Nor, for that matter, did the concept of the teen sidekick really exist before the creation of Robin. All this stuff had to be invented.

 

Speaking of Codes against Killing: Captain America and Bucky didn't have them during WWII. They were quite happy to mow down Japanese and Nazis en masse....

 

And all this stuff was four colour. Literally.

 

Not sure why this is such a hot button for you, but just because there were some combinations of ideas into a "new idea" or "firsts" doesnt mean that there also werent reused cliches. One doesnt prevent the other.

 

A lot of the basic ideas were cliched. The basic idea of the comic book super is just a costumed version of Pulp heroes, and grew directly out of that genre. A lot of the storys were retellings of basic pulp ideas with the introduction of super powers.

 

On another note, Batman wasnt really a superhero originally; he was a detective with a gimmick. He first appeared in Detective Comics, was of the same archetype as the pulp character The Spider, and his more comic-book-hero aspects were spliced on later. The idea of a detective wearing a costume wasnt new, the Shadow had his mask and the Spider used makeup to create a scary image to frighten criminals -- just like Batman used the bat motif.

 

 

As far as Superman, he was essentially a Doc Savage rip off.

 

Further, bringing Batman or Superman into a discussion of Silver Age Comics is basically flawed since both are Golden Aged characters to begin with. Superman #1 is pretty commonly regarded as the end of the pulp era and the begining of the Golden Age afterall.

 

 

CvK's are more of an out growth of the Comics Code Authority than anything else. A crack down on comic book violence in the future could potentially lead to CvK coming back again. Not a major defining element of Silver Age in and of itself, but part of the general "heroes dont do ANY bad things" morality line forced upon comics by the anti-comic hysteria of the day.

 

 

Finally, just because a lot of the ideas in Silver Age comics were recycled doesnt mean they werent good or enjoyable. If anything, some of the success of the SA era doubtlessly stemmed from the refinement of old ideas and the addition of some new spins here and there. Cliched does not equal bad, it just means that in a Silver Aged game, there are certain cliches that will be repeated and its ok because its part of the genre.

 

The vigilante who saw his parents (or wife, or other loved one) killed. The human-looking alien with superpowers. Energy blasts that knock people out like a boxing glove rather than behaving like a focused burst of that type of energy really would. Athletes that are supposedly normal, but are regularly capable of stunts that no real world athelete could ever pull off. The idea that even in an age of advanced forensics, a simple mask and tights combo will protect a secret ID, and in fact it only really takes a small domino mask to accomplish this despite the facial recognition skills possessed by the average person. Characters that gained their powers via some event, but have "real person" names indicative of their powers, like Edward (E.) Nigma, Harley Quinn, Norrin Radd (he's a surfer -- thats totally rad-ical!), Dr. T.O. Morrow, Dr. Strange (magic is strange), Cpt. Adam (Captain Atom!), Ben Grimm (he's grim, get it?) Johnny Storm (fire storm, get it?), Reed Richards (he's bendy like a reed, get it?), and so on. Another cliche carried over from the golden age: anyone that deliberately TRIES to get REAL super powers is a villain; in order to be a hero you either have to get your powers by accident, or be "super" only some of the time.

 

The DIFFERENCE between the Golden and Silver ages in fact is that while they were mostly the same, and most of the well-worn bits of the Golden Age were carried forward, in the Silver Age heroes could actually have problems. As opposed to Golden Aged heroes who were "the whole package", Silver Aged heroes could have some minor flaws and the overcoming of those flaws was part of what made them "heroes" and not just "super".

 

 

Spiderman is to me the classic Silver Age character. He was sometimes conflicted about what was the right thing to do, and he had problems in his life other than dealing with super criminals. The superhero bit had been done before and was cliched right down to a typical "radiation accident"; it was the introduction of issues that couldnt be solved by a super-power or a good right hook that was novel and sparked the upsurgence of relevancy in comics. For the first time comic book characters werent just power trips -- you could identify with some of them.

 

YMMV, of course

 

And of course, both Golden and Silver Age comics can be "4 Color". There are just subtle shadings between the two.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

As far as Superman' date=' he was essentially a Doc Savage rip off.[/quote']Doc Savage was a source, sure (most notably the 'Fortress of Solitude' ripoff) but I wouldn't say he was the major one. Superman comes from a variety of sources, blended to make what in my view is an original concept.

 

Superman was waay stronger and fleeter than Doc S, and could bounce bullets off his skin.

Superman wore a colourful, tight-fitting costume, Doc S wore relatively normal clothes but had weird skin and eyes.

Superman had a secret ID, derived from Zorro principally.

Superman had a codename, Doc Savage was just a normal name (sorta).

[assault]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Further, bringing Batman or Superman into a discussion of Silver Age Comics is basically flawed since both are Golden Aged characters to begin with. Superman #1 is pretty commonly regarded as the end of the pulp era and the begining of the Golden Age afterall.

 

We're _not_ talking about Silver Age comics. We're talking about "four colour" comics, which covers Golden, Silver and at least some Bronze age material.

 

Of course, not everything published in any of those periods was exactly "four colour".

 

CvKs were imposed on Batman and Robin fairly early on in their careers, just not in the beginning.

 

From where I sit, the Golden Age began with Action #1, not Superman #1. Of course that is an arbitrary distinction, since Superman was still a very pulpish character. Bits of his concept had been used by Siegel and Schuster in their earlier, more pulpish work. Slam Bradley and Dr Occult are good examples of this. In fact, Slam Bradley pretty much was Superman, minus his superpowers - a bog-standard action tough guy.

 

But if you want to talk about Marvel Silver Age, you might want to consider the continuity between their superhero comics and their earlier horror/monster titles.

 

Ant-Man began as an unnamed non-costumed scientist, while the Hulk was a plain old misunderstood monster, like all the other misunderstood monsters.

 

I will refrain from mentioning "Captain America, Commie Smasher", since I've only seen images of the covers, not the material inside.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

All of the above, plus

• PG-13 no profanity, and romance beyond holding hands takes place off panel.
  
• Every problem can be solved by violence It's all a matter of finding the right person to hit.

Definitely agreed on the PG-13 rating (maybe even just PG). I'm not so sure about the "Every problem can be solved by violence" aspect, though. I think there have been plenty of 4-color stories that required the heroes to find creative, non-violent solutions. For example, Superman's confrontations with Mr. Mxyzptlyk almost never have violent resolutions. Supes must trick Mxyzptlyk in order to defeat him.