Polishing The HERO System

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Well to jump on the band wagon I like the idea of using a different str chart for heroic and super heroic games....especially since I have a completly different set of house rules for champions than for everything else. The Hero system already acknowledges the difference between the two styles of play' date=' I don't believe having two str charts is really out of line with that philosophy.[/quote']

How about the fire arms table?

 

Hero is currently based on a very well thought out system, and one which is internally consistant along a number of lines. For example, the current fire-arms chart follows the pattern that each DC represents a doubling of kinetic energy (which is in line with the concept of each DC representing a doubling of STR).

 

Since you want change things so that strength no longer has to double for each DC, do you also want to change the way fire-arms work for each setting?

[Agent X]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Yes Agent X, that is exaclty my point. There are many Thing, Colossus, Doc Sampson STR level characters. Not so many "Superman" level STR characters.

 

If you were to make Colossus and the Thing,thier respective STR difference would be less than 5 pts accordig to current rules. What I am proposing by flattening the STR chart is a way for the STR to cater to the Bricks in the STR levels you mentioned. Not in the "Blue Moon" str level of a "Superman". A more gradual STR would promote more detail and I believe flesh out the character even more.

Even your cherry picking of my list doesn't work for you. Ever read the old Annual where the Thing and Colossus are arm wrestling? The Thing and Colossus aren't supposed to being wildly different in strength. How strong do you think Superman is? Do you think he can just vaporize any other superhero? Based on what I've seen written, including Marvel/DC crossovers, that isn't the way it would go down. And Doc Samson can get plenty strong depending on the writer and his hair length.

 

And Supes is the high end in DC for protagonists. Wonder Woman, J'onn J'onnz, and Captain Atom are all plenty strong but not quite as strong as Supes.

How many dice do you think Superman would throw down?

In my translation without changing the rules: Thing 90 strength, Thor 120 strength (without Odinpower or belt), Superman 130 strength and Batman 25 strength. It looks to me like there is plenty of differentiation between Batman and Superman. Batsy can roll base 5d6 and Superman can roll base 26d6.

[Agent X]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Well to jump on the band wagon I like the idea of using a different str chart for heroic and super heroic games....especially since I have a completly different set of house rules for champions than for everything else. The Hero system already acknowledges the difference between the two styles of play' date=' I don't believe having two str charts is really out of line with that philosophy.[/quote'] Why again? How much differentiation in damage do heroic level characters need?

 

Here's a suggestion: Check out the Ultimate Brick's optional damage rules for strength - there's more differentiation without changing scale: With it, you have d6, 1/2d6, d6-1, and d6+1.

[hyperion]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Even your cherry picking of my list doesn't work for you. Ever read the old Annual where the Thing and Colossus are arm wrestling? The Thing and Colossus aren't supposed to being wildly different in strength. How strong do you think Superman is? Do you think he can just vaporize any other superhero? Based on what I've seen written, including Marvel/DC crossovers, that isn't the way it would go down. And Doc Samson can get plenty strong depending on the writer and his hair length.

 

And Supes is the high end in DC for protagonists. Wonder Woman, J'onn J'onnz, and Captain Atom are all plenty strong but not quite as strong as Supes.

How many dice do you think Superman would throw down?

In my translation without changing the rules: Thing 90 strength, Thor 120 strength (without Odinpower or belt), Superman 130 strength and Batman 25 strength. It looks to me like there is plenty of differentiation between Batman and Superman. Batsy can roll base 5d6 and Superman can roll base 26d6.

 

Well that explains a big part of our difference of opinion. Using standard STR charts in CHampions I would place Thing at 55 str, Thor 60 str, and Superman 100 str. Remeber with the ability to "Push" they could increase thier lifting power and quadruple the amount they could strain and lift.

 

A 55 STR thing would place base lifting STR at 50 tons with pushing he could lift 200 tons. A 60 str THor would be 100 tons with pushing could lift 400 tons. And Supes 100 str 25 thousand tons with capability to lift 100 thousand tons. A 100 str in the standard rules is absurdly strong.

 

According to your examples. Thing could lift 6.4 Thousand tons. Thor, 400 thousand tons. And Superman, in the millions on tons. Not pounds...Tons. Absurd.

 

Even without pushing. You think The Thing can lift thousanads of tons? He is like a middleweight brick in MU. I think he could break 100 tons lifting if someone life or his own was depending on it, but a normal "deadlift" is well under that.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

A 55 STR thing would place base lifting STR at 50 tons with pushing he could lift 200 tons. A 60 str THor would be 100 tons with pushing could lift 400 tons. And Supes 100 str 25 thousand tons with capability to lift 100 thousand tons. A 100 str in the standard rules is absurdly strong.

 

Curiously enough, those numbers almost exactly mirror our local estimates.

 

I don't think post-Crisis Superman was 100 STR. I haven't read any Superman comics is a few years, though, so he may have gotten absurdly strong again.

 

According to your examples. Thing could lift 6.4 Thousand tons. Thor' date=' 400 thousand tons. And Superman, in the millions on tons. Not pounds...Tons. Absurd.[/quote']

 

Exceedingly.

 

I see no problem whatsoever with the current STR progression.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Well that explains a big part of our difference of opinion. Using standard STR charts in CHampions I would place Thing at 55 str, Thor 60 str, and Superman 100 str. Remeber with the ability to "Push" they could increase thier lifting power and quadruple the amount they could strain and lift.

 

And Superman, in the millions on tons. Not pounds...Tons. Absurd.

DC Heroes the RPG by Mayfair games (which came out post-crisis) placed Superman at 50. But that is NOT Hero 50 STR, that is DC 50 STR.

 

In DC an average person had a Str of 2, and every point over that doubled (not every 5 points like in Hero). You can get an exact str conversion DC to Hero by multiplying by 5.

 

Thus, to covert Superman based on what he could lift in the DC game, his STR in Hero terms would be 250. According to that value, Agent X's estimate is too low.

 

BTW Batman's STR was 5 in DC (which would be 25 in Hero terms). So that estimate was right on the money.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

DC Heroes the RPG by Mayfair games (which came out post-crisis) placed Superman at 50... In DC an average person had a Str of 2' date=' and every point over that doubled[/quote']

 

Hmm. So Superman would be able to lift 5.6 x 10^11 metric tons. Well, it's still less than the Moon.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Hmm. So Superman would be able to lift 5.6 x 10^11 metric tons. Well' date=' it's still less than the Moon. [/quote']

Yep. I believe that the moon required a 69 STR (in DC terms) to lift.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Hmm. So Superman would be able to lift 5.6 x 10^11 metric tons. Well' date=' it's still less than the Moon. [/quote']

You might also double check your math on that value for Superman.

 

I'd have put it at approximately 25 X 10^12

 

These are how I'd figure Hero strengths, every 50 point of Hero strength is approximately a factor of 1,000.

 

050 Hero STR (DC 10 STR) = 25 X 10^0 metric tons (or just plain 25 tons)

100 Hero STR (DC 20 STR) = 25 X 10^3 metric tons

150 Hero STR (DC 30 STR) = 25 X 10^6 metric tons

200 Hero STR (DC 40 STR) = 25 X 10^9 metric tons

250 Hero STR (DC 50 STR) = 25 X 10^12 metric tons

[OddHat]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Yep. I believe that the moon required a 69 STR (in DC terms) to lift.

 

What if we let him chalk up first, then use a belt and knee wraps?

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

What if we let him chalk up first' date=' then use a belt and knee wraps?[/quote']

Well it would have to be a lot of chalk

 

It would take one-half million STR 50 characters to lift a 69 weight object (all in DC terms of course).

 

And I should probably point out that they did try to lower Superman's STR even more later on. I believe that the new rating was 32 (160 in Hero terms). But the stuff in my source books comes from the original ratings (and there were some really cool DC source books, for example, I really like the Legion of Super Heroes books).

[hyperion]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Wow DC's system sounds horrible. What I was basing my numbers on for MU characters were those Marvel Encyclpedia issues they came out with in the 80's. About the same time Secret Wars was running.

 

My interest in comics took a nosedive after that, but I remember they had some hard numbers for lifting ability. If anyone has those issue or knows what I am talking about please ket me know I would love to pick them up again.

 

Regardless, it seems alot of people are happy with the ways things are and I just wanted to get others opinions on that game mechanic.

 

Incidenlty, no way Batman can lift 800kgs without pushing. Sorry, not buying it. I would think twice about using a game system like DC heros as Canon for my campaign, sounds like it is made for a younger crowd.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

You might also double check your math on that value for Superman.

 

Normal person can lift 100kg, right? (Maybe not, I don't have the book in front of me.) So if a normal person is 2, and it doubles with every point, and Superman is 50, then he can lift 100kg x 2^49. No?

[OddHat]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Incidenlty' date=' no way Batman can lift 800kgs without pushing. Sorry, not buying it. I would think twice about using a game system like DC heros as Canon for my campaign, sounds like it is made for a younger crowd.[/quote']

 

Current world record levels for Dead Lift in competition are right around 408kg. Much higher anecdotal DLs have been reported, up to around 500kg.

http://www.kraft.is/ymislegt/Records.htm

 

World record squats over 1000 pounds are more common, in part because grip strength is no longer a factor.

[Agent X]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Wow DC's system sounds horrible. What I was basing my numbers on for MU characters were those Marvel Encyclpedia issues they came out with in the 80's. About the same time Secret Wars was running.

 

My interest in comics took a nosedive after that, but I remember they had some hard numbers for lifting ability. If anyone has those issue or knows what I am talking about please ket me know I would love to pick them up again.

 

Regardless, it seems alot of people are happy with the ways things are and I just wanted to get others opinions on that game mechanic.

 

Incidenlty, no way Batman can lift 800kgs without pushing. Sorry, not buying it. I would think twice about using a game system like DC heros as Canon for my campaign, sounds like it is made for a younger crowd.

Let me give you a little data from a guy who isn't part of the younger crowd unless you are a geezer. I've been gaming since the early 80's. In two old Adventurer's Club articles (the old Hero Games magazine) they published conversion notes for Marvel and DC characters.

 

Using the old rating system in earlier editions of Hero, the Thing's Monstrous Rank Strength was rated in a range of 75-89 strength and Thor's Unearthly Rank Strength was rated 90-115 ion strength. If I'm off, it's by very little. I stared at this hard and decided I agreed roughly with the ranges given (not that you care.) Why? Because the OHOTMU's tonnage ratings made no sense considering what the characters have demonstrated the ability to do in comics. Here's an example: Black Adam in DC picked up Cleopatra's Needle (roughly 200 tons) and through it so hard it reached escape velocity. Now, I personally think a crossover with Thor vs. Black Adam would put them pretty much in the same weight class. Thor can lift far more than 100-200 tons. If you don't believe me check out the tables in the Ultimate Brick.

 

Now, on the conversion for DC, it was designed for 1st Edition and they did tone down the stats. A strict conversion would have given Superman a 250 strength. With the conversion it would give him a 150 str (2.5xAP +25)

 

With 2nd Edition DC and post-Crisis stats for Supes his strength was now expressed at 25 APs which would translate strictly to 125 strength. There's no need for the formula provided in the 1st edition conversion at this point.

 

The final element in my rationale: When I played earlier editions of Champions, I assumed the lift was what you could pick up over your head. So, on my old conversions I added 5 points.

 

Final Point: A 60 strength Thor, even pushing, cannot do the things he is portrayed as doing in the comics.

 

And where do you guys get the idea that the Thing is a middle-weight? Are they writing him differently now? My translations are from the mid-80s so who knows? But back then, he was one class lower than Thor, Wonder Man, Hercules, Hulk, and Sasquatch but one class higher than the Vision and American Eagle and the like.

 

I have to say this in bold: The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe uses tonnage that has no relationship with what things actually weigh.

[Agent X]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

And let's remember that strength in the game is measured as a lift just a little bit off the ground and a movement of a few feet. I bet world record deadlifts are based on "perfect form" and doesn't allow "cheats" that are perfectly acceptable in evaluating a character's ability to lift in game.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Wow DC's system sounds horrible.

It had both good and bad points.

Regardless, it seems alot of people are happy with the ways things are and I just wanted to get others opinions on that game mechanic.

Hey I'm willing to discuss it.

Incidenlty, no way Batman can lift 800kgs without pushing. Sorry, not buying it. I would think twice about using a game system like DC heros as Canon for my campaign, sounds like it is made for a younger crowd.

DC did acknowledge the fact that Batman had stats which were better than the best Olympic atheletes. They suggested that Batman had simply pushed himself to a level beyond the bounds of other people--the idea is supposed to be that even olympic atheletes are not truely at the limits of human potential.

 

I guess that it depends on whether you are willing to buy into that point of view or not.

[OddHat]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

And let's remember that strength in the game is measured as a lift just a little bit off the ground and a movement of a few feet. I bet world record deadlifts are based on "perfect form" and doesn't allow "cheats" that are perfectly acceptable in evaluating a character's ability to lift in game.

 

Generally true, depending on the federation.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Normal person can lift 100kg, right? (Maybe not, I don't have the book in front of me.)

Yes, a normal person can lift 100kg. (Both in Hero and DC)

So if a normal person is 2, and it doubles with every point, and Superman is 50, then he can lift 100kg x 2^49. No?

No.

 

50 DC STR would be 48 points over a normal person.

 

It would be 100kg X 2^48 or approximately 256 trillion times as much as a normal person.

 

Which is also approximately

 

256 X 10^12 X 100kg = 25.6 X 10^15 kg

 

Or

 

25.6 X 10^15 kg = 25.6 X 10^12 tons

 

You can also look at it from a base of 0. Which is the stat where Hero and DC are exactly the same. (0 Hero STR = 0 DC STR = 25kg lift)

 

50 DC STR = 25kg X 2^50

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

It would be 100kg X 2^48

 

Ah, of course. Duh.

[G.W.Lerose]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

How about the fire arms table?

 

Hero is currently based on a very well thought out system, and one which is internally consistant along a number of lines. For example, the current fire-arms chart follows the pattern that each DC represents a doubling of kinetic energy (which is in line with the concept of each DC representing a doubling of STR).

 

Since you want change things so that strength no longer has to double for each DC, do you also want to change the way fire-arms work for each setting?

 

Well to be perfectly honest, I can't rember the last time a PC used a standard firearm in my Champions campaign. What guns they use have almost always been super-techy multi-powers that work differently from normal guns anyways...

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Well to jump on the band wagon I like the idea of using a different str chart for heroic and super heroic games....especially since I have a completly different set of house rules for champions than for everything else. The Hero system already acknowledges the difference between the two styles of play, I don't believe having two str charts is really out of line with that philosophy.

 

Well to be perfectly honest, I can't rember the last time a PC used a standard firearm in my Champions campaign.

I thought we were talking about changing the STR chart for Heroic style games (it'd probably stay the same for Champions).

 

So if you change the chart for heroic games, are you going to change the way firearems work in heroic games too?

[Rene]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

I don't think Superman is a "once in a blue moon character". Superman is the most important superhero there is and one of the most important characters in Western culture. If a generic universal game system proposing to simulate all varieties of heroic fiction is unable to do Superman and the many heroes patterned after him, then the system is weak.

 

That is one of my problems with old GURPS (I'm not sure about the new edition yet). The beauty of HERO is that you can give Supes a 125 STR and have him doing the big but not absurd amount of 25 dice of damage. In GURPS you'd have to, what, give him ST 30.000 to represent his lifting amount? And then he could destroy the universe with the damage he does with his little pinky.

 

Not to mention other problems created by the "x2 non-combat element must be equal x2 combat element" that is well-meaning but ultimately disastrous. Like, making the Flash pretty much impossible to build too.

 

I believe that the game system must follow the genre. Not that the genre must be distorted to fit in the game system, so we'd have bricks and speedsters that are much weaker than the comics versions because the game don't support them.

 

Now, okay, Golden Boy is the strongest man on Earth on Wild Cards "low-level realistic gritty" superhero world and he can "only" do 11d6 with his 40-ton strength. 11d6 isn't impressive, you say. I say it is impressive, when you consider that most characters in Wild Cards and other realistic superhero worlds will have PDs on the 3-8 range, and thugs and minions should definetely have very low PDs on realistic games.

 

And in the Wild Cards stories Golden Boy had to take plenty of time to rip into a tank. In game terms, I think he resorted to haymakers.

[zornwil]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

I don't think Superman is a "once in a blue moon character". Superman is the most important superhero there is and one of the most important characters in Western culture. If a generic universal game system proposing to simulate all varieties of heroic fiction is unable to do Superman and the many heroes patterned after him, then the system is weak.

 

That is one of my problems with old GURPS (I'm not sure about the new edition yet). The beauty of HERO is that you can give Supes a 125 STR and have him doing the big but not absurd amount of 25 dice of damage. In GURPS you'd have to, what, give him ST 30.000 to represent his lifting amount? And then he could destroy the universe with the damage he does with his little pinky.

 

Not to mention other problems created by the "x2 non-combat element must be equal x2 combat element" that is well-meaning but ultimately disastrous. Like, making the Flash pretty much impossible to build too.

 

I believe that the game system must follow the genre. Not that the genre must be distorted to fit in the game system, so we'd have bricks and speedsters that are much weaker than the comics versions because the game don't support them.

 

Now, okay, Golden Boy is the strongest man on Earth on Wild Cards "low-level realistic gritty" superhero world and he can "only" do 11d6 with his 40-ton strength. 11d6 isn't impressive, you say. I say it is impressive, when you consider that most characters in Wild Cards and other realistic superhero worlds will have PDs on the 3-8 range, and thugs and minions should definetely have very low PDs on realistic games.

 

And in the Wild Cards stories Golden Boy had to take plenty of time to rip into a tank. In game terms, I think he resorted to haymakers.

But let's be fair here, the genre is also fictional story-telling from a singular viewpoint, and is not an interactive game. There's already a disconnect in that, aside from titles such as Justice League, X-Men, Mysterymen, and Avengers (as examples), the large majority of comics are oriented to a single character while the large majority of games are oriented towards a group of players.

 

Also, Superman has often been portrayed as this unbeatable force that many/most (in that incarnation) are uninterested in playing.

 

Bear in mind, to take the words you used, that the genre is distorted as soon as we turn it into an interactive game.

 

Now, all that being said, as I think you may have seen me say elsewhere, I'm not at all dismissing your comments/concerns, I do think that we ought to strive to be able to simulate the genre, ideally doing it "perfectly", but there's simply so many complexities in the media forms themselves, inherently, that I think we have to acknowledge that distortion is not only necessary and inevitable, practically speaking, but even desirable.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Bear in mind' date=' to take the words you used, that the genre is distorted as soon as we turn it into an interactive game.[/quote']

 

A point too-often overlooked, in my opinion.