Polishing The HERO System

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Does any of that stuff you suggested really make 30 STR seem stronger? Sure' date=' it gives smoother progression between 10 and 30, every point actually means something, and STR 11 is slightly different than STR 13. Now we traverse the distance between 10 STR and 30 STR in twenty 1 point steps, rather than four 5 point steps. But it is still a difference of 20 points.[/quote']

 

I think most games suffer from this problem to some extent. If STR 30 provided 16x the damage, it would be just as unworkable, as I think you already alluded to above.

 

The nature of games is that they map everything out n stat points,m bit those stats tend to have break points, so some points are more crucial than others. Looking to d20, how much SR doubles lift capacity from STR 10? Going from 10 to 20 only adds 5 points of bonuses. Going from 10 to 11 adds nothing, so is STR 11 "no stronger" than STR 10? In Hero, it's the infamous "CON always ends in 3 or 8" breakpoint.

 

If we flatten the curve, then we'll have complaints that Bricks have to bee too strong to emulate the lifting feats in the cmics (the less unreasonable ones, not pushing a planet out of orbit or towing the island of Manhatten around).

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

I think 30 STR feels 16x stronger than 10 STR. Absolutely. The STR system in HERO is log2 of STR/5. STR/5 is a convention for the point value of the STR.

 

In HEROIC games, points over 20 would be doubled, which introduces an artificial curve.

 

However, 6d6 vs. 2d6 in any contest of STR is going to be very clear, especially since casual STR will usually win. This effectively allows a 30 STR character to ignore a 10 STR character in any contest of STR, and seems fitting.

 

I have played a lot of GURPS, which has the graduation you seek, and I can tell you the STR system in HERO is much more cinematic for really strong normals. Even in GURPS 4e, 30 STR in HERO = 46 ST in GURPS (based on max lift). At that level, a punch from the 46 ST character would do 5d6, averaging 17.5 damage. That will cripple any limb, kill a man if to the skull, and if nothing else (chest) put him at -7 HP, knock him down and stun him. He is out and probably going to die. Take that same punch of 30 STR in HERO (6d6 = 21 STUN 6 BODY) the average normal (8 BODY 16 STUN) is KO, but only take 4 BODY. He will also recover in 2 phases.

 

Which is more realistic? Probably GURPS, but the HERO progression is much more fun.

 

In HERO +1 BODY or +1 DEF mean 2x as tough. That's why a heavy pistol does 2d6K and a heavy rifle does 3d6K (8x as deadly). That progression is what allows the system to adequately handle a range of powers and have them coexist manageably, and often with a lot of fun.

 

If you want stronger guys without letting the whole lift thing get in the way, buy:

 

+10 STR, No figured characteristics -1/2, Only to increase exert STR -1/2; Total cost: 5 points. This eliminates any lift STR, leaping, PD/ED, STUN etc. The "Only to increase exert STR" might really only be -1/4, but I leave that to your judgement. You end up with a stronger villain who can't lift any more than his regular STR dictates.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

If we flatten the curve, then we'll have complaints that Bricks have to bee too strong to emulate the lifting feats in the cmics (the less unreasonable ones, not pushing a planet out of orbit or towing the island of Manhatten around).

That is really the core issue here.

 

There are no right or wrong curves. There is just a trade off between working to differentiate various power levels and making things playable at a wide range of power levels.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

I have played a lot of GURPS, which has the graduation you seek

Did I say that I wanted a GURPS style progression? I don't think that you are really reading what I've said.

 

I can tell you the STR system in HERO is much more cinematic for really strong normals. Even in GURPS 4e, 30 STR in HERO = 46 ST in GURPS (based on max lift). At that level, a punch from the 46 ST character would do 5d6, averaging 17.5 damage. That will cripple any limb, kill a man if to the skull, and if nothing else (chest) put him at -7 HP, knock him down and stun him. He is out and probably going to die. Take that same punch of 30 STR in HERO (6d6 = 21 STUN 6 BODY) the average normal (8 BODY 16 STUN) is KO, but only take 4 BODY. He will also recover in 2 phases.

 

Which is more realistic? Probably GURPS, but the HERO progression is much more fun.

There are other options besides Hero or GURPS.

 

If we used a system where 10 points double rather than 5 points, a character who can lift 16X as much as a 10 STR would have a 50 STR.

 

And 10d6 damage would still not be enough to kill a normal (it would be an average of 8 BODY after subtracting 2 PD).

 

edit: OK it might kill a guy with a BODY of 8.

 

In HERO +1 BODY or +1 DEF mean 2x as tough. That's why a heavy pistol does 2d6K and a heavy rifle does 3d6K (8x as deadly). That progression is what allows the system to adequately handle a range of powers and have them coexist manageably, and often with a lot of fun.

 

If you want stronger guys without letting the whole lift thing get in the way, buy:

 

+10 STR, No figured characteristics -1/2, Only to increase exert STR -1/2; Total cost: 5 points. This eliminates any lift STR, leaping, PD/ED, STUN etc. The "Only to increase exert STR" might really only be -1/4, but I leave that to your judgement. You end up with a stronger villain who can't lift any more than his regular STR dictates.

As has already been discussed, buying extra STR that way would screw with the pattern. If damage happens at +1DC per doubling, then a character who can lift 16X as much should only do an extra 4DCs.

 

In order to be consistent these changes must be made consistently across the board. If +10 STR doubles then it should be +2DCs per doubling. And everything should be changed along those same lines. As I've already stated, a .44 Mag would then do 3d6+1 RKA, and a .50 cal HMG would do 5d6+1 RKA

[OddHat]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

A side point, but in my "realistic" games I double all body damage. The 6d6 punch will kill a normal person, and even three or four full force 2d6 punches from a fit adult male will put any normal without combat training in the hospital. The power of KAs is kept down by seting the stun multiplier to always default to 2, with placed shots increasing or decreasing it.

 

It makes for much deadlier combat, and that STR 30 does feel like much more than a STR 15.

 

Just a house rule for one type of game, not a propossed system change.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

A side point, but in my "realistic" games I double all body damage. The 6d6 punch will kill a normal person, and even three or four full force 2d6 punches from a fit adult male will put any normal without combat training in the hospital. The power of KAs is kept down by seting the stun multiplier to always default to 2, with placed shots increasing or decreasing it.

 

It makes for much deadlier combat, and that STR 30 does feel like much more than a STR 15.

 

Just a house rule for one type of game, not a propossed system change.

That is a good point. There are ways in which a 30 STR can be made to feel as though it is far greater than a 10 STR.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

If damage is the main issue, then I would go with the suggestions above. x2 seems a bit much, but x1 1/2 would work well I think. Leave the STUNx alone, as I think there is already enough there (sometimes I think I see too much STUN flying around).

 

x1.5 would make for x3 BODY head/vitals. I would also only apply that after knockback, otherwise you get more on more.

 

I agree Warp9 that having more levels in between would be nice, especially since I really dislike half-dice. If I understand the +10 STR per doubling and +2 DC, what you propose doesn't change the dice mechanics (+5 STR = +1 DC) just the value that represents. This means an olympic weightlifter (STR 20-23 now) would have to be STR 30-35. I'm certainly not against that, but I think it would create the same situation at a different level, as well as making game play at heroic levels much deadlier (not necessarily a bad thing).

 

Running a supers game with this system would make things somewhat tedious however. I dislike rolling 14d6 damage and would dislike rolling 28d6 even more. Not to mention at that level damage would be incredibly normalized and rarely extreme. I think then you would have to come up with some diceX mechanic to compensate (e.g. never roll more than 7-10 dice, picking the lowest dice possible and setting a multiplier: 28d6 = 7d6x4).

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

I agree Warp9 that having more levels in between would be nice, especially since I really dislike half-dice. If I understand the +10 STR per doubling and +2 DC, what you propose doesn't change the dice mechanics (+5 STR = +1 DC) just the value that represents.

That is what I had in mind.

 

This means an olympic weightlifter (STR 20-23 now) would have to be STR 30-35. I'm certainly not against that, but I think it would create the same situation at a different level, as well as making game play at heroic levels much deadlier (not necessarily a bad thing).

 

Running a supers game with this system would make things somewhat tedious however. I dislike rolling 14d6 damage and would dislike rolling 28d6 even more. Not to mention at that level damage would be incredibly normalized and rarely extreme. I think then you would have to come up with some diceX mechanic to compensate (e.g. never roll more than 7-10 dice, picking the lowest dice possible and setting a multiplier: 28d6 = 7d6x4).

I agree with what you have said here.

 

There are probably no perfect answers, every curve is going to have advantages and disadvantages.

 

I don't really feel all that strongly about the changes I'm proposing, I'm just exploring some alternatives to the current scale.

 

It seems that the current scale is designed for a comic book style game, and IMO a universal system should not focus too much on a single genre. So I thought that a 10 points per doubling scale might be a better compromise between a supers style and a more "realistic" style.

[Resartus]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Running a supers game with this system would make things somewhat tedious however. I dislike rolling 14d6 damage and would dislike rolling 28d6 even more. Not to mention at that level damage would be incredibly normalized and rarely extreme. I think then you would have to come up with some diceX mechanic to compensate (e.g. never roll more than 7-10 dice' date=' picking the lowest dice possible and setting a multiplier: 28d6 = 7d6x4).[/quote']

 

Funny you should mention that, GURPS does the same thing with all of it's high end damage. Anything after 24d6 becomes 4d6-8d6 times a mulitplier, so 142d6 becomes 6d6x24, 28d6 becomes 4d6x7, 54d6 becomes 6d6x9, etc. It keeps the dice rolls smaller which is helpful sometimes but you end up using a calculator for some damage rolls.

 

My biggest issue with the current doubling of damage is the lack of granularity you get with KAs, you can't tell them apart at high levels.

[Vondy]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Problem: Big skill rolls in superhero games

 

The rant: For better or worse, the background of Champions has long established that a superhero or supervillain pretty much will have an above average DEX and CON in order to stand up in combat to his peers. DEX below 18 is rare, even more rare than DEX above 26. CON below 18 is also rare, with the Goodman values of 23 being very common. It has a strange effect on skills. Acrobatics, for example, can be bought as a familiarity (1 pt, 8-), perhaps a general skill (2 pt, 11-), or a full blown skill (3 pt, typically 14-). The jump from 11- to 14- seems pretty cheap compared to the cost of the next +1 to the skill (typically 2 pts).

 

Solution: Make the skills less dependent on stats (by making them 11 + STAT/10) or lower in general (as above, 6 + STAT/5). Perhaps make bonuses purchased through skill levels less expensive relative to stats.

I've considered making all skills general skills. The only issue I've been wrestling with is the fact that it makes intelligence all but useless with the exception of perception. I'm contemplating the idea, really.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

A side point, but in my "realistic" games I double all body damage. The 6d6 punch will kill a normal person, and even three or four full force 2d6 punches from a fit adult male will put any normal without combat training in the hospital. The power of KAs is kept down by seting the stun multiplier to always default to 2, with placed shots increasing or decreasing it.

 

It makes for much deadlier combat, and that STR 30 does feel like much more than a STR 15.

 

Just a house rule for one type of game, not a propossed system change.

 

Double the body damage? I always thought heros body damage was very realistic when you look at the guns, then look at their average damage, and look at the hit location rules. (Shoot someone in the head, they probably die, while it is hard to kill someone by shooting them in the foot).

[OddHat]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Double the body damage? I always thought heros body damage was very realistic when you look at the guns' date=' then look at their average damage, and look at the hit location rules. (Shoot someone in the head, they probably die, while it is hard to kill someone by shooting them in the foot).[/quote']

 

As I said in the original post, your game, your version of "realistic."

 

Use the blow-through rules to avoid killing people by shooting them in the foot.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Well, either version is better than D&D, where 1st level mages die if you look at them funny, and high level warriors can fall from orbit and survive.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Problem: Big skill rolls in superhero games

 

The rant: For better or worse, the background of Champions has long established that a superhero or supervillain pretty much will have an above average DEX and CON in order to stand up in combat to his peers. DEX below 18 is rare, even more rare than DEX above 26. CON below 18 is also rare, with the Goodman values of 23 being very common. It has a strange effect on skills. Acrobatics, for example, can be bought as a familiarity (1 pt, 8-), perhaps a general skill (2 pt, 11-), or a full blown skill (3 pt, typically 14-). The jump from 11- to 14- seems pretty cheap compared to the cost of the next +1 to the skill (typically 2 pts).

 

Solution: Make the skills less dependent on stats (by making them 11 + STAT/10) or lower in general (as above, 6 + STAT/5). Perhaps make bonuses purchased through skill levels less expensive relative to stats.

As I've said before, Hero, as a generic system IMO should not cater too much to a specific setting. Changing the Hero system because of "Big skill rolls in superhero games" would be doing exactly that.

 

Your first solution (making skills 11 + STAT/10) doesn't do much besides hide the problem. A person with a high enough stat will still go from 11- to 15- at a cost of 1 point. The 6 + STAT/5 might work better, depending on how you implemented it.

 

The real problem is that STATS have nothing at all to do with skills at a 1 or 2 point level, and then suddenly kick in at a 3 point level. If having a high DEX helps me climb, then why should it have no impact at the 1 or 2 point level? And, if I have a 10 DEX why should I get exactly the same roll (11-) for 2 points that I get for 3 points?

 

My solution would be to make it so that, if a skill is based off of a STAT it should always be based on the stat, even at a 1 or 2 point level.

[JMcL63]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

One thing that I have mentioned before that I still think would be one of the best ways to polish HERO would be to dispense once and for all with inches. Make the basic hex 1m, and render all measurements in the game in metres, not inches.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

I've considered making all skills general skills. The only issue I've been wrestling with is the fact that it makes intelligence all but useless with the exception of perception. I'm contemplating the idea' date=' really.[/quote']

That is not a bad idea. My main concern here is that I do think that some skills should have some conection to DEX or INT.

[JMcL63]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

That is not a bad idea. My main concern here is that I do think that some skills should have some conection to DEX or INT.

Making all skills general, and removing the DEX, INT and PRE breakdown? Nah, I don't think that's a good way to go at all myself. Tying skills to stats is a strong mechanic that makes for more interesting characters. Removing them would be more scouring than polishing IMO.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

The problem is that in the hero rules, everything is based off of everything else, and changing most anything changes other things entirely.

 

Change cost of str, throw entire attack point balances out of whack.

 

Make all skills general, makes int nearly useless, pre much less useful, dex slightly less useful. Cut cost of pre by half to compensate, then all of a sudden it becomes way too easy to spend 30 points on a 70 PRE and use it as an attack form.

 

I think it is fine as is, people with incredible natural abilities pick up skills that utilize those abilities much easier and faster than those with average abilities. Which is why the PRE 10 guy would have to spend a lot more points to be as good at seduction as the 30 PRE guy.

[OddHat]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Making all skills general' date=' and removing the DEX, INT and PRE breakdown? Nah, I don't think that's a good way to go at all myself. Tying skills to stats is a strong mechanic that makes for more interesting characters. Removing them would be more scouring than polishing IMO. [/quote']

 

Agreed. I don't see linking skills to stats as a problem at all. As to the too-point-efficent first step from Everyman skills, make familiarities and everyman skills equal to 6+CHA/5 if it bothers you. Drop the 2 point step in the progression, 3 points gets you 9+ CHA/5. Or revamp the whole thing; Start with 6+CHA/5, +1 per 1 point.

 

Personally I leave this alone in my games.

[JMcL63]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

Agreed. I don't see linking skills to stats as a problem at all. As to the too-point-efficent first step from Everyman skills, make familiarities and everyman skills equal to 6+CHA/5 if it bothers you. Drop the 2 point step in the progression, 3 points gets you 9+ CHA/5. Or revamp the whole thing; Start with 6+CHA/5, +1 per 1 point.

 

Personally I leave this alone in my games.

A consensus! Meanwhile, the current basic skills cost progression is this: 1+2+2. I think that this is just fine for a stat-based skills system. It costs you the minimum 1pt to get the skill to a basic level that anyone can have with a bit of practice, +2pts to get the skill to a level where your natural talents (ie. your CHA) can make you better at the skill, and 2pts for each +1 thereafter.

 

If anything, I would suggest that there's an argument for reducing the +1 cost to 1pt, because this is not as great a gain as is going from 8- to a full roll (11- typically), and because the statistical value of each +1 decreases increasingly above 11- anyway. This woud certainly make high level skills a lot cheaper, but then I would suggest that skill levels are currently cost effecient enough that they are likely to be more in use than increased skill rolls themselves are, don't you think? If that were to be the case, then reducing the cost of +1 to each skill could make sense, especially since you could, perhaps, then consider unifying the skills system into a stat-based 1+2+1 points progression, thus getting rid of confusing 1+1+1 progressions in background and other skills.

 

Those are some of my thoughts on what could be done to skills to polish the HERO system.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

The real problem is that STATS have nothing at all to do with skills at a 1 or 2 point level, and then suddenly kick in at a 3 point level. If having a high DEX helps me climb, then why should it have no impact at the 1 or 2 point level? And, if I have a 10 DEX why should I get exactly the same roll (11-) for 2 points that I get for 3 points?

 

My solution would be to make it so that, if a skill is based off of a STAT it should always be based on the stat, even at a 1 or 2 point level.

 

The drawback to this could be 1 point now buying a decent skill roll for someone with high stats. Thius could be alleviated if we make the stat have less impact at low levels. For example, perhaps a familiarity, rather than being 8- is 7+ [stat/15], so while a normal stat still gets you an 8-, a 50 stat gets you a 10-. This prevents Mr. 50 PRE paying 1 point for each interaction skill and getting a roll of 17-, but still gives him a significantly greater chance of success than a 8 PRE person with the same familiarity.

 

A 2 point skill could then be 10 + [stat/10], so Joe Average has an 11-, but Mr. Impressive gets a 15- (a pretty good skill roll for 2 points, but he paid 40 for PRE). The 3 point skill might then be 10 + [stat/5] so Joe Normal gets a 12- (ie he's pretty competent even compared to the 11- he would have had) while Mr. Impressive gets 20- (not a huge improvement over the present 19-).

 

Skills one can use without training could then be broadened, and perhaps be 5 + [stat/20], so Joe Average has minimal likelihood of success, but Mr. Imnpressive stands a chance (8-) just because of his natural ability. Some skills would still require training (eg. an 80 INT wizard can't use a computer).

 

Sign me up, as well, for +1 to the roll costing 1 CP. This makes such additions a more viable option when compared to the price of skill levels. We could even go so far as to apply a NCM to such bonuses (maybe in NCM< campaigns, the price of +1 doubles after, say, +5).

[OddHat]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

The drawback to this could be 1 point now buying a decent skill roll for someone with high stats.

 

In most the Super Hero, Sci Fi and Fantasy genres, I don't see that as a problem. It would bring down the costs of skill heavy characters as compared to powers, perks and tallents heavy characters, which from a point-cost-should-reflect in-game usefulness POV may not be a bad thing.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

In most the Super Hero' date=' Sci Fi and Fantasy genres, I don't see that as a problem. It would bring down the costs of skill heavy characters as compared to powers, perks and tallents heavy characters, which from a point-cost-should-reflect in-game usefulness POV may not be a bad thing.[/quote']

I agree that it would not be a big problem.

[Warp9]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

The problem is that in the hero rules, everything is based off of everything else, and changing most anything changes other things entirely.

Good point.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Polishing The HERO System

 

One thing that I have mentioned before that I still think would be one of the best ways to polish HERO would be to dispense once and for all with inches. Make the basic hex 1m' date=' and render all measurements in the game in metres, not inches. [/quote']

 

That's the only thing anyone has said in this thread recently that I agree with.