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Code VS Killing Poll


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Guest bblackmoor

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Totally ignores the fact that I posted links showing you lifted my material

 

Don't feel too badly: I have positive proof that William Shakespeare plagiarized my screenplay of The Taming Of The Shrew. I'd sue him, but the sneaky bastard died in an obvious ploy to escape my righteous vengeance. :bmk:

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Guest Worldmaker

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Don't feel too badly: I have positive proof that William Shakespeare plagiarized my screenplay of The Taming Of The Shrew. I'd sue him' date=' but the sneaky bastard died in an obvious ploy to escape my righteous vengeance. :bmk:[/quote']

 

 

So not only are you a thief, you're an arrogant thief.

 

Nice combination.

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

So not only are you a thief' date=' you're an arrogant thief. Nice combination.[/quote']

 

I have stolen only hearts, as you have stolen mine, my beautiful, brown-eyed boy. :love:

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Arg' date=' CvK or no CvK, personal pet peeve of mine is the "treating as murder what is *clearly* self defense/defense of another" schtick.[/quote']

 

You have a good point. Murder is killing, but killing is not always murder. They are not one and the same. Our judicial system allows for this, and so should we in discussions like this. Self defense and defense of others is justified for laying out a devistating attack against a villain... but after the fact, the question we all come back to is: Was it necessary?

 

It occurs to me that in a good number of non-superheroic movies within the last two decades the main villain, and usually all of his henchmen, are slain by the hero of the story. Few are captured alive, is my point. I wonder if this has any influence on Players (and GMs) when it comes to how villains should be dealt with in rpgs? Narrowing the field to only superheroic games, and keeping in mind the roughly 30 supergenre movies (not counting traditional monster movie flicks like vamps, werewolves et all) that have been made, I wonder if all of our opinions aren't skewed a bit toward the lethal solution? My opinion is that we are. violence and death have been creeping upward in movies and TV for years. Its kinda sneaky, that way.

 

We all know this discussion (thread) would be entirely different if it happened, say, 20 years ago. ;) Not only have the comics changed, but the world has changed. Violence and lethal means are more acceptable now, although why I don't know. Maybe it's because the more people there are in the world, the less precious each life is? I know that's wrong from a moral standpoint, but what about in rpgs, or more specifically supergenre rpgs, where the morals are set by the GMs and by the PCs allowed into the game?

 

Mags

-just call me Ramblin' Mags

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I must say that this is bit confusing. And I'm a bit surprised that it came from you JmOz.

 

I might be inferring this incorrectly, but it seems to imply that the only times that a Supehero is "allowed" to kill is if he has remorse, or if it's in a war.

 

If I've inferred the proper implication here, I'm confused.

 

Why should Great Remorse be a requirement for allowing a Superhero to kill?

Why should War allow a Superhero to kill?

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

War is a different kettle of worms, I will not discredit characters such as Captain America who served in a war time enviroment and did kill the enemies, however as someone else posted: At this point the character has gone from being a Superhero (at least temperarily) to super soldier.

 

Sometimes a story will involve a super hero killing, but when it does it should be to delve into the soul of the hero in question, thus the remorse comment.

 

Characters like Wolverine slicing up Hellfire guards, or most Iron Age characters being "realistic" are not "Heroic" to me.

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Guest Worldmaker

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I have stolen only hearts' date=' as you have stolen mine, my beautiful, brown-eyed boy. :love:[/quote']

 

 

You know, if it weren't for the other three people (besides myself) who recognized my work in your posts and pointed it out to me, this would be nothing but a case of "he said she said".

 

Luckily, though, its not. So your innocent act really isn't fooling anyone.

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Thank you.

 

You've used the words "should not" and "in my opinion." That's a far cry from "superheroes don't kill" especially when you, yourself have stated several cases where superheroes do, in fact, kill.

 

Apparently we agree afterall. :)

 

 

I think the statement in the first post was meant as:

 

Superheroes don't murder.

 

Superheroes shouldn't kill.

 

The misunderstanding wasn't the use of don't or shouldn't... but rather in the definition of the word kill. Killing on purpose is murder and many thought that right off after reading the first post (me too). Others though of killing out of necessity (self defense, et all).

 

Arguing about 'who said what' means nothing if the subject was stated ambiguously.

 

 

Mags

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

You say that like being limited and childish is a bad thing... ;)

 

Honestly, it's exactly what it is, in the same way any fairy-tale is. The basic plot is something "evil threatens, goods stands against it, good prevails without committing anything remotely evil itself"

 

Without the threat of death, or the possibility of a hero to question his actions, or have his actions questioned by others, the story becomes a fable with capes and eye-beams.

 

Now please, before you have a cow, there's nothing wrong with this. If you like it that's fine, but I'll play in a different sandbox. I find this type of storytelling extremely limiting and not very entertaining.

 

Of course I want good to win, but I want good to work at it, make some sacrifices and question itself once in a while. That defines what a hero is to me, super or not.

 

I was not aware that the threat of death, etc., were eliminated by CVK. In fact, a hero with a code against killing psych lim is more endangered. He has to find less lethal ways to stop villainy than may be at his or her disposal. Often the hero put him- or herself in much more danger in protecting others from harm.

 

Plenty of heroes have questioned their actions. They wonder why they even try when they can't save everyone. They question whether they are abusing their power. They question their own motives. And they do question their actions when they have abused their powers. The CVK doesn't prevent this. It enables it.

 

And as to others' questioning their actions, that's also definitely going to happen thanks to the CVK. "Why didn't you kill him? He murdered my father! You coward!" "Your reckless antics in what you call heroism could have ended in many more deaths! You and your ilk are a threat to society!" Or when the CVK causes the hero to hesitate a second too long: "Why'd you let him kill her?! What were you thinking? You should have killed him when you had the chance!"

 

I really don't think we're that far removed from one another, but there may be a gap of miscommunication between us.

 

Cat

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Guest Worldmaker

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

You know, if it weren't for the other three people (besides myself) who recognized my work in your posts and pointed it out to me, this would be nothing but a case of "he said she said".

 

 

Heh.

 

I've just been informed through a private message that I should make it "the other four people".

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Of course one way to avoid this' date=' if you want the 4-color escaping villain, is to make sure he's like the traditional Riddler, a "simple" thief/mastermind who doesn't harm bystanders.[/quote']

 

But if we're prepared to kill murderers who will likely kill again, why not also kill other criminals who will likely get out and commit more crimes.

 

You know, come to think of it, jaywalking indicates disrespect for the law, so jaywalkers will probably commit more serious violations of the law...

 

The decision to act as judge, jury and executioner is a slippery slope.

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

A follow-up question: does the relative ruthlessness/implacability/irredeemability of the villain have an impact? the escapability of the prison system? a combination of the two(worst case: the Stronghold is a poorly-designed, poorly-run sieve, the villain has super-lawyers who give him time to elude authorities, and the villain gets worse and worse every time they get out)?

 

At some point, if the justice system actually isn't working properly, a principled hero may feel no recourse but to make an exception so that lives can be saved and justice can be done.

 

Plus, logically, if a villain were already under a death sentence, theoretically law enforcement might deputize a hero team to carry out said sentence against the villain, on the grounds that the state lacks the means to do so otherwise(and to expedite public safety, etc.).

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Plus' date=' logically, if a villain were already under a death sentence, theoretically law enforcement might deputize a hero team to carry out said sentence against the villain, on the grounds that the state lacks the means to do so otherwise (and to expedite public safety, etc.).[/quote']

 

That would be a grim duty. And I don't think I'd want to entrust that authority to anyone who actually wanted the job (which is also how I feel about most elected officials).

 

That sparks an idea for interesting, if dark, idea for a miniseries game:

 

The Executive Branch

 

The PCs learn that there is a small, secret government agency tasked with the unpleasant duty to carry out the sentences of villains who have been tried, found guilty, and sentenced to death, either in absentia, or who later escaped from custody. The agency "drafts" superheroes into performing this duty for a set time period (say, two months), and provides suport for them during that period. After the duty period is over, the superheroes are placed under a gag order preventing them from discussing the agency or anything the superheroes did while in its service.

 

It might be a good comic, but I do not think I'd want to play in it. :straight:

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Plus, logically, if a villain were already under a death sentence, theoretically law enforcement might deputize a hero team to carry out said sentence against the villain, on the grounds that the state lacks the means to do so otherwise(and to expedite public safety, etc.).

 

 

Now there's a campaign premise!

 

Deathsquad 2004

Your mission: To hunt down and kill supervillains that have been sentenced to death in absentia. Your Superhero is licensed to kill. Your title, Executioner.

 

Heh.

 

Mags

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Uh... your post was up before mine. ;) Actually I was still writing mine when your post went up. :( I type slow.

 

Nay, dear lady. I am clearly a Fiend and a Scoundrel, and have absconded with your Words in a Most Unseemly fashion.

 

But we had similar ideas. Your's being one that could be dropped into an existing campaign' date=' with some tweaking.[/quote']

 

Maybe so. Personally, it'd be too dark for my tastes. I have a gruesome imagination, but as a player, I have a strong preference for upbeat games. Perverse, I know. :think:

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I think the statement in the first post was meant as:

 

Superheroes don't murder.

 

Superheroes shouldn't kill.

 

After some 15 pages, someone has finally hit the nail on the head.

 

Killing in self-defense, or in the defense of others, must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

 

Murder is certainly not (super)heroic. But there are cases where nothing less than a (hopefully swift and merciful) death sentence will do... hopefully by authorized persons. The recent thought of an "Executioner Squad" is in interesting one, though. IMO, you have to have a little darkness in your RPG's from time to time, and this is a nifty campaign idea.

 

As a side-note, I have found this board to be one of the more civil I have ever frequented. Until this thread. While I understand that this is issue raises serious questions, it is in the end just a game we're discussing. Again IMO, this is not the place to air personal grievances, vendettas, etc. The last couple of pages have been splattered with the worst kind of cr*p imaginable, on both sides of the argument. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that these personal attacks should be just that: personal and private.

 

Can we all loosen our sphincters just a notch and try to keep the flames to a minimum out of respect for everyone??

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

War is a different kettle of worms, I will not discredit characters such as Captain America who served in a war time enviroment and did kill the enemies, however as someone else posted: At this point the character has gone from being a Superhero (at least temperarily) to super soldier.

 

Sometimes a story will involve a super hero killing, but when it does it should be to delve into the soul of the hero in question, thus the remorse comment.

 

Characters like Wolverine slicing up Hellfire guards, or most Iron Age characters being "realistic" are not "Heroic" to me.

Ah, I now see the disconnect.

 

CVK (Very Common, Total) is not what you are talking about then. I thought that is what you were referring to. The book's description of this level is that the character will not kill under any circumstance and will actively try to stop others from doing so.

 

I doubt you are implying that Captain America had this particular CVK.

 

This particular CVK doesn't care if it's war or not. They will not kill.

 

I thought I was missing something, now it's clear I was. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

...As a side-note' date=' I have found this board to be one of the more civil I have ever frequented. Until this thread. While I understand that this is issue raises serious questions, it is in the end just a game we're discussing. Again IMO, this is not the place to air personal grievances, vendettas, etc. The last couple of pages have been splattered with the worst kind of cr*p imaginable, on both sides of the argument. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that these personal attacks should be just that: [b']personal[/b] and private...

Or it's time for people to make use of the "Ignore" list feature of this website again. Over time, any person who deliberately annoys people finds themselves talking to themselves, since no one sees thier posts anymore.

 

- Christopher Mullins

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

But if we're prepared to kill murderers who will likely kill again, why not also kill other criminals who will likely get out and commit more crimes.

 

You know, come to think of it, jaywalking indicates disrespect for the law, so jaywalkers will probably commit more serious violations of the law...

 

The decision to act as judge, jury and executioner is a slippery slope.

I'm surprised at that reaction, frankly.

 

I think it's unrealistic to assume in a "realistic" setting that if I (GM) turn loose deadly villains time after time - such that the PCs essentially are not affecting the world - that the PCs won't eventually react by saying "forget it, obviously this world is a cruel and hopeless place, the only way I can make a difference is killing these guys because nobody else will handle them."

 

While I certainly get the Batman storylines, as stated earlier, I think that has a LOT more to do with his personal demons.

 

As a cliche, let's face it, turning homicidal maniacs loose every other issue is just...a despondent setting. You may as well be playing one of the more maligned (rightfully or wrongfully) White Wolf settings.

 

And, moreover to the point, I think that this setting is so non-4-color that we aren't talking about traditoinal superhero comics - Batman notwithstanding (and even for Batman it wasn't until the Bronze Age this pattern became recurrent and unsettling).

 

But in any event, you're really going from one extreme to another. There's a massive difference between releasing a homicidal maniac and a klepto, and this particular slippery slope argument holds no weight I believe.

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

For the record: although I'm in the "heroes, super or otherwise, can kill when necessary" camp, I thought that the Punisher movie depicted not a hero, but a serial killer. Yes, those people had commited serious crimes, including murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Yes, they were likely to do so again. And yes, Castle had a very intense personal reason to desire their deaths.

 

None of this changes the fact that when he killed them, they did not pose a clear and present danger to anyone (well, the Russion did, but that's beside the point). This moves the killings from justifiable homicide to murder, in my mind.

 

Hmm...now I'm wondering about clear but non-present danger. Is that enough to justify killing, as in the Superman/Zod incident?

 

Zeropoint

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

But if we're prepared to kill murderers who will likely kill again, why not also kill other criminals who will likely get out and commit more crimes.

 

You know, come to think of it, jaywalking indicates disrespect for the law, so jaywalkers will probably commit more serious violations of the law...

Gotta be a literary example (some dystopian work, I'd imagine), but all I can think of OTTOMH is Deadworld, the original homeworld of Judge Death and his pals from Judge Dredd. The Dark Judges there decided that since crimes were committed only by the living, that life itself was a crime (talk about heavy-handed;) ). A possible lit. example might be in some of Niven's future history works (eg, The Jigsaw Man); where, due to the demand for body parts as replacements for failing ones, trivial crimes (by current standards) are deemed to be capital crimes: Of course, there's no sense in wasting the good bits from the condemned's body :rolleyes::thumbdown
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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Ok, I have some more thoughts, and I wanted to share a few with you.

 

Regarding WM’s line “Superheroes don’t kill,†several people, including myself, misinterpreted the statement as a denial that it had ever happened. After further discussion, I think I understand better now that he meant (at the risk of interpreting another’s words) that “Superheroes never deem killing to be an acceptable option.†I agree with the sentiment, and I’m sorry about the snideness of my initial reaction.

 

Why hasn’t The Batman slain the Joker? It’s easy, really. It’s not his job. He has clearly defined his job as apprehension of the criminal element, especially when it comes to those that are beyond the normal capabilities of the police. He believes in the judicial system, though. Otherwise, he could not have partnered with commissioner Gordon for so long. He is not a jury, nor an executioner. He and Gordon need the system to work. That it fails so often must surely be his eternal torment, reminiscent of Job’s trials. Deep down he truly believes in Justice, and no matter how he is tested he will not lose faith in it.

 

The words “hero†and “the Punisher†should never be uttered in the same sentence unless they are used in the context of complete opposites. The man is a psychotic. (He used to shoot jaywalkers!) His “war†is nothing but a personal vendetta and bears none of the characteristics of upholding an ideal, or seeking justice, or protecting the innocent. (He used to gun down litter-bugs!!) He is an easily manipulated tool whose murderous tendencies were pointed in a more acceptable direction. (He once blew up a car parked where the meter was expired!) There is nothing heroic in him. He is revenge personified; mindless, unthinking, brutal, bloodthirsty revenge. He was created as a villain, and his numerous attempts to justify his war on crime appear as hollow arguments that reveal a truly disturbed mind. Unlike Batman, he relishes the role of judge, jury, and executioner.

 

The fact that the two are often named together to represent a genre or style is a farce.

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Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Wanderer' date=' I'm not going to deal with you until learn to tone down the sheer arrogance in your posting style. One of my major peeves is being talked down to. [/quote']

 

Sorry if you felt it personal, but it happened that your point was focused on one of my major peeves, too. I find extremely annoying when in discussions about ethics, conscience, and morality, either in RL or in geeky fictional worlds, one raises abiding to laws as an argument. Obeying to laws, and the dictates of one's conscience should ever be wholly separate issues. They interface in so many important ways, but laws should never ever be a substitute for conscience and morality.

 

As for my posting style being arrogant... sincerely sorry if it annoys you. There's only so much I can do about it if you feel it that way. I can only try to maintain and show respect for the people I'm discussing with at all times. Their ideas are a different thing (though they deserve free and equal expression at all times).

 

"I hate your ideas,

But I will fight till death so you can express them"

 

Voltaire

 

Call it a long standing impression. In my interactions with Wanderer, I've alway felt there was a pattern of condescension and quite a bit of attitude. I don't appreciate it and even if it is just me, the wise course seems to be avoid the situation.

 

Well, about condescension, I feel sorry about giving the wrong impression. I never deemed you, or any other poster on this board, as nothing else that a fully-equal peer and a companion to a mutual interest.

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I find extremely annoying when in discussions about ethics' date=' conscience, and morality, either in RL or in geeky fictional worlds, one raises abiding to laws as an argument.[/quote']

 

It may not make sense to you, but there are people to whom the law, in and of itself, is sufficient motivation for their behavior. It follows that some subset of superheroes would be among that group. Much like the preference that superheoes not kill, it is one thing to express a preference, and another to put blinders on and pretend that exceptions to your preference do not exist.

 

On the other hand, we should always remember that we are talking about a role-playing game. It is possible, if you are the GM, and if you are particularly heavy-handed, that you could restrict the game setting such that no one in the entire game world ever deviates from the particular ethos to which you yourself subscribe. Personally, I would not wish to play in such a game.

 

[edit: rephrased last sentence slightly]

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