Marchwarden Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 I realize that it may have been an inside joke to create a mutant with no angst whatsoever, but does anyone else think that Sapphire comes across as too flighty? I don't require all my heroes to be steeped in doom and misery, but I at least like to see them either achieving their heroic status through some act of diligence or at least seeming to appreciate the seriousness of the job. Sapphire was born beautiful, born talented, achieved overnight success as a pop star without apparent effort, sprouted mutant powers overnight and seems to regard superheroism as just another kind of stardom. It's one thing to have natural talents, but to be naturally talented at everything you'd want to succeed at, and never need to try hard at anything, just doesn't seem very heroic, and neither does the "With great power comes photo ops!" attitude. I could easily handle any one of those traits in a character, but pile them all together and you're left with someone who's really hard to respect. Just cranky, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamashii2000 Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 Hmm.. Maybe, but I think it would (with the proper player) make great roleplay when reality comes and smacks her upside the head. Sooner or later, something bad is going to happen to her to make her realize that being a superheroine is far more serious then it seems she's taking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 Out of the Fifth Ed Champions, Sapphire is my least favorite (Nighthawk has grown on me). However, I still like some things about her. When I read her first, and realized "It's a non angst mutant!" my first thought was THANK THE LORD! I loved the X-Men (And think the Dark Phoenix Saga ranks up there with great literature) but after 20 years of "We have these great powers, and 90% of us are good looking, how could we POSSIBLY be happy for more than two pages." I got a bit sick of the mutant pity party. It was often well done, but eventually even well done is overdone. I can see how Sapphire might get on some folks nerves, but if she'd been an angst bunny I'd have chucked her out of the group faster than Defender could say "Recruiting time!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 To me, she seems like Christina Aguliera with superpowers--specifically, Quantum's superpowers. While I wish that whoever had created the character had put a little more thought into its conception, I do uderstand where that person is coming from--a hero I used to write stories about had a girlfriend who strongly resembled a Playboy Playmate I once had a crush on. I also feel that not enough thought was put into the conception of Witchcraft, at least lookswise. She seems too much like a swipe off of Solitaire to intrigue me any; my thought is they should have based her look on Albert Deschesne's drawing of the spellcastress on pg. 192 of the FREDBook. But if they did that they'd have to change Sapphire's hair, and then she'd really look like Christina. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marchwarden Posted March 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 Sapphire doesn't bug me that much because, well, all heroes aren't meant to be perfect. Plus, she does do her job out of responsibility and obligation to help people. She gives to charity. She may try and look good while fighting Mechanon with her teammates, but she's still Fighting Frelling Mechanon! Then again, it might be the bare midriff distracting me. I must concede that she does use her gifts for the benefit of others. Can't fault that. I also checked the CU timeline and noticed that she is noticeably younger than her teammates. The junior team member is often the happy-go-lucky one. I have to admit, I thought that Witchcraft's initial writeup went a bit too far to portray her as timid and inhibited. Then she was featured in quite a few art pieces in CU and CKC, and they depicted a more resolved and defiant Bethany. It developed the character in my mind. Perhaps we'll see either text or art that brings Corrie onto sharper relief, and presents her more as carefree than as careless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 Funny thing, over at the Sentinels VS Champions show down, they have a poll for most popular Champions (no, I didn't put it up) Here's how it breaks down: Results (total votes = 60): Defender 19 / 31.7% Ironclad 5 / 8.3% Nighthawk 13 / 21.7% Witchcraft 9 / 15.0% Sapphire 14 / 23.3% As you can see, Sapphire is dong pretty well. Compared to an earlier poll I did on Nato's boards, in which she came dead last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 A dark haired britney spears with superpowers? I'll pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acroyear Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 I won't go into it like last time... but, yes, I hate Sapphire to a great degree. Hermit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted March 31, 2003 Report Share Posted March 31, 2003 Amongst my players, Sapphire is quickly becoming the New Seeker (the one everyone picks on) for some reason only one of them can explain (she triggers his character's vulnerability). Then again, Witchcraft didn't make the transisition and Nighthawk got reconned into NightSeeker, so my players don't have an opinion on them I think it's the whole "Jennifer Lopez with Brittney Spear's personality and insufficient defenses" thing myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted March 31, 2003 Report Share Posted March 31, 2003 I guess I'm strange because Sapphire happens to be my favorite Champion. The idea that a rockstar might have superpowers is not uncommon. Dazzler is the template for the mold, and there are not many male players out there who have not designed a rocker character with his guitar focus at one time or another. Defender and Nighthawk might be the most dedicated of the Champions (for different reasons), but Sapphire is the "people person" in the group. She is the most accessible to the fans, both music and superhero. Besides that, it's nice to see a celebrity super who isn't all angst-ridden; and who does what she does because she wants to help people without regrets. I can respect a hero who does it to simply to help people, because if I had superpowers that is what I would be doing. No Spider-man/X-men angst for me. Sapphire also appeals to a new generation of gamers who are familiar with Britney, Christina, and Pink just as many in our generation are familiar with The Boss, REM, and Madonna. Could you imagine what type of superheroine Madonna would have been when she was 19? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted March 31, 2003 Report Share Posted March 31, 2003 Originally posted by TheEmerged I think it's the whole "Jennifer Lopez with Brittney Spear's personality and insufficient defenses" thing myself. I know you probably didn't realize this, but Sapphire has the second highest defenses in the Champions, right after Ironclad. Defender: 20/20 Ironclad: 25/28 Nighthawk: 18/16 Sapphire: 21/24 Witchcraft: 14/17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 I just like sapphire for some diversity. Frankly, personal character histories I make are always fairly heavy. The characters have deep hidden problems or strong ulterior motivations for what they do. I like to think that people are driven to help others as a means of helping themselves. "Blue" is just my latest example. I think every player character I've ever had a real attachment to was like that. If they weren't, they were barely used. I generally don't have such problems. But then I don't want to play a character like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 /* Dangerously close to a rant here but... Originally posted by Monolith I know you probably didn't realize this, but Sapphire has the second highest defenses in the Champions, right after Ironclad. Defender: 20/20 Ironclad: 25/28 Nighthawk: 18/16 Sapphire: 21/24 Witchcraft: 14/17 I realized it perfectly. In My Opinion, most of the rest of the Champions (and, frankly, most of the DOJ Champions Universe) have insufficient defenses. In my campaign world, Sapphire and Defender are still at risk of taking BODY damage from the standard police sidearm (not on an average roll, but it can happen). The fact that she has more than other people means little when they're all too vulnerable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Well, yeah, but if that's a problem with ALL the Champions now, why should it count against Sapphire ? (I agree though, I have kept 'average' Defenses for 5th about 5 pts higher than than listed in FRED) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Originally posted by TheEmerged In my campaign world, Sapphire and Defender are still at risk of taking BODY damage from the standard police sidearm (not on an average roll, but it can happen). I understand that your world is different, but within the real of 5th Edition "standard," Sapphire and Defender can get hit in the face with a .44 magnum (more powerful than standard police sidearms) and not take a point of BODY, even if the weapon rolls maximum. I do not believe it is fair to say a hero is not up to your standard when they were not designed for your standard, but the official standard. The fact that you have chosen to up the damage of the weapons means that you need to up the defense of the characters as well, just to achieve the same resistance effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Orange Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 Fighting Frelling Mechanon! I really like it that Frell has made it into folk's vocab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Actually, sometimes I think I would have prefered to have an 'old guard/premier' team for the signature team of the Champions Universe. The mega-point monsters as sort of the archetypes of various character types. Heck, I would have been happy for the 4th Ed Champions with some mods fill that role in fifth edition. Even if it meant having Seeker around. Which is not to say the Champions book couldn't have had some starting 350 pt character examples, but I would have liked all CU references out of the Champions book and had some generic characters with disad space left in for psych lims and hunteds so that players could fill in the backgrounds of the characters themselves. Generic example brick, blaster, martial artist, mentalist, magician and speedster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Well, one PBEM I'm in has the Champions more established and spreading out. Our group is "Champions Southwest". If one wanted to tweak things a little, one could always bring back the fourth edition Champions (in updated, slightly altered ways perhaps) and have them elsewhere. Heck, you could have the 5th Ed team in Millenium City, the 4th Ed team in NYC, and even earlier edition versions (The Guardians I believe, only call them Champions:Gold) in California. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcorp Man Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Yeah, she always came off as J Lo with powers, and I don't like J Lo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormhole Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Come on Starcorp, there's always room for J Lo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Sapphire ... First off, someone has to die from that pun. I must admit, I don't like *any* of the new Champions as much as their 4th Edition Counterparts (I suppose Defender didn't change much, but I preferred his old armor!). Seeker had more personality in his non-resistant-PDed pinky than Nighthawk. The concept of someone using their powers simultanously both for good and for fame isn't too common, though, that I'm aware of (Public ID in a world with Mechanon BAD ). Besides, if you want to punish her for vanity, just let her get hit in the face with a Killing Attack or something. Or create a new magic weapon, The Ugly Stick (Hand Attack with linked COM drain). Then find out if she's just in it for the fame, or if she's serious about it. PLOT HOOK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkmanDan Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by Starcorp Man Yeah, she always came off as J Lo with powers, and I don't like J Lo... Don't look at how much Force Field that I got, 'cause I'm still Sapphire from the block . . . If she is actually J Lo with powers, I'm rooting for Mechanon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Can't wait til she maries Ben Affleck and they have vapid, soulless children! I'm already writing the related adventure based on prophsized real-world events. Fish rain from the heavens, The seas boil, Ben & Jen get married. And once you scrub the three sixes off of their first-born, I'm sure he won't be all that evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Re: Does Sapphire bug anyone else? Amongst my players' date=' Sapphire is quickly becoming the New Seeker (the one everyone picks on) for some reason only one of them can explain (she triggers his character's vulnerability). Then again, Witchcraft didn't make the transisition and Nighthawk got reconned into NightSeeker, so my players don't have an opinion on them [/quote'] Ah, that would explain it. In the campaign I'm playing in, Nightduck was retained in all of his (nonexistent) glory, and as such, everybody picks on him. Seriously. The first time our team met the Champions, I had my character break down in a giggle fit at his hat. He was... not amused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Re: Does Sapphire bug anyone else? /* Dangerously close to a rant here but... I realized it perfectly. In My Opinion, most of the rest of the Champions (and, frankly, most of the DOJ Champions Universe) have insufficient defenses. In my campaign world, Sapphire and Defender are still at risk of taking BODY damage from the standard police sidearm (not on an average roll, but it can happen). The fact that she has more than other people means little when they're all too vulnerable How frickin' high did you amp the killing damage?! You *do* realize that 4d6 RKA is supposed to be light artillery, right?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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