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Is bumping into something considered Targeting?


Hyper-Man

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It has been mentioned in another thread that there appears to be a gray area in the targeting rules with regards to the "Touch" sense group.

 

If a character with no extra sensory powers is Flashed in both the Sight, Hearing (and heck, Smell too!) categories and then bumps into something or somebody is there a game mechanic for him to "target" the object or person?

 

According to the rules Touch is NOT targeting so I am curious what others think about this.

 

There is a Telekinetic Touch writeup in the Online USPD:

http://www.herogames.com/USPD/telekinetic.htm

but it specifically has targeting as part of the power.

 

I am curious what it means when it is not targeting. I am guessing that Helen Keller could wander on her hands and knees and find things. Is it being assumed that she had "targeting" on her sense of touch like the Telekinesis writeup above as a compensation for being blind and deaf? Does that mean that if the power goes out tonight due to this Huricane that I won't be able to find something without a flashlight!? eek!! :eek:

 

comments and opinions welcome.

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Re: Is bumping into something considered Targeting?

 

Well the second last paragraph on p. 226 in FREd states that to use touch you must already have found the target. To my mind, that statement combined with a little common sense tells me that 'by accident' is a perfectly valid method of finding a target where touch is concerned.

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Re: Is bumping into something considered Targeting?

 

Well the second last paragraph on p. 226 in FREd states that to use touch you must already have found the target. To my mind' date=' that statement combined with a little common sense tells me that 'by accident' is a perfectly valid method of finding a target where touch is concerned.[/quote']

I agree that is probably the only good answer for a combat situation but what about a non-combat one where "searching" for something is involved?

 

How do we resolve the 'by accident' when I am trying to help the process along in an organized fashion? Going back to my huricane example (which I may be able to put to the test in less than 24 hours btw!) If I am effectively blind I can still find something by orienting myself to a 'familiar' wall or piece of furniture. Now I know the first response to this for HERO will be that combats are rarely in such 'familiar' settings which I would agree with. But, what if I am applying a 'pattern' to my search on my hands and knees in unfamiliar territory? It seems like common sense that I should be able to eventually build a mental picture of the landscape via this method to nudge the randomness in my favor just a little bit. "Concentraton" would probably be required but not points spent on a power or skill.

 

In retrospect I am picking a pretty obscure example but it is definitely a 'hole' in the rules.

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Re: Is bumping into something considered Targeting?

 

I agree with Mark. Touch may not be an official Targeting sense, but it only stands to reason that if you touch an invisible character (accidentally or deliberately) you've got a pretty good idea where he is unless he moves before you can attack. In fact almost this exact situation came up in our last Champions game about two weeks ago. Our team was fighting a powerful invisible mage, and we were having a tough time with him. Finally one of our characters determined via magic that the evil mage was about 7 feet above the roof of a nearby building. By coincidence (Well, not entirely. We knew he was in that general direction because of who he was attacking and line of sight) my character Zl'f (Down 12 BODY from the fight and so prudently staying out of the way) and our team's brick Silhouette were on the roof at one end of that same (large) building. Zl'f decided to assume he would be most likely hovering just above the peaked roof, and so she sommersaulted down the length of the roof. When she'd gone about 15" she bounced off an invisible object about seven feet above the roof. Silhouette, who had a held action and knew what Zl'f was doing, promptly made a Move By on that hex and hit the bad guy. Stunned but not quite unconscious, the bad guy dropped the magic item he was holding. A Triggered Teleport spell enabled him to get away, but we stopped him from destroying all technology on Earth.

 

So in essence Zl'f used her whole body as a blind man's cane. :)

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Re: Is bumping into something considered Targeting?

 

Here's how I would resolve it:

 

PC has been sight flashed/blinded, must recover object (a Focus) from the ground, and knows it is somewhere in his immediate vicinity.

 

1. Roll any Luck the PC has. Apply each success as a +3 bonus to the next roll:

 

2. PC makes PER Roll at -4 penalty. If the PC is successfull, he has found the object immediately!

 

3. If the PC fails the roll, calculate how much he failed by, call that number T. For example, a character with a PER Roll of 14- and no Luck rolls with a -4 penalty. He rolls a 13, modified to 17. He missed the roll by 3.

 

4. Move T down the Time Chart, starting from Instant. In the example, this would mean moving down three levels, to 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12). This tells us how llong it takes the PC to find the object. So, in the example, the PC finds the object on Post-Segment 12.

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Re: Is bumping into something considered Targeting?

 

Here's how I would resolve it:

 

PC has been sight flashed/blinded, must recover object (a Focus) from the ground, and knows it is somewhere in his immediate vicinity.

 

1. Roll any Luck the PC has. Apply each success as a +3 bonus to the next roll:

 

2. PC makes PER Roll at -4 penalty. If the PC is successfull, he has found the object immediately!

 

3. If the PC fails the roll, calculate how much he failed by, call that number T. For example, a character with a PER Roll of 14- and no Luck rolls with a -4 penalty. He rolls a 13, modified to 17. He missed the roll by 3.

 

4. Move T down the Time Chart, starting from Instant. In the example, this would mean moving down three levels, to 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12). This tells us how llong it takes the PC to find the object. So, in the example, the PC finds the object on Post-Segment 12.

That's very nicely reasoned. I'd change just one little detail: Since there are no actual Actions in Post-12, I'd move the discovery of the object in question to Phase 1.
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Re: Is bumping into something considered Targeting?

 

Here's how I would resolve it:

 

PC has been sight flashed/blinded, must recover object (a Focus) from the ground, and knows it is somewhere in his immediate vicinity.

 

1. Roll any Luck the PC has. Apply each success as a +3 bonus to the next roll:

 

2. PC makes PER Roll at -4 penalty. If the PC is successfull, he has found the object immediately!

 

3. If the PC fails the roll, calculate how much he failed by, call that number T. For example, a character with a PER Roll of 14- and no Luck rolls with a -4 penalty. He rolls a 13, modified to 17. He missed the roll by 3.

 

4. Move T down the Time Chart, starting from Instant. In the example, this would mean moving down three levels, to 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12). This tells us how llong it takes the PC to find the object. So, in the example, the PC finds the object on Post-Segment 12.

 

Nice solution, very similar to what I was about to propose which was basically to use a normal PER roll with a much longer base time than usual, say 5 minutes for a normal sized room, 20 minutes for a very large room and so forth. Then move up the time chart by a number of levels equal to the margin of sucess, or move down the time chart by a number of levels equal to the margin of failure.

 

Factoring in Luck is a nice touch which I hadn't thought of!

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Re: Is bumping into something considered Targeting?

 

In retrospect I am picking a pretty obscure example but it is definitely a 'hole' in the rules.

 

I'm not quite sure it's so much a hole in the rules as just one of these situations in which one has to concede that it's impossible for the rules to cover every possible eventuality that could arise in a game session. HERO System is pretty complete but no rule system can cover everything. When it comes to trying to cover everything, how far is too far? I'd say this one is pretty close to the line!

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I would say that touch is not inherently targetting, myself ... try this experiment. Close your eyes and walk towards someone (willing and aware of what you're doing, preferably). Now, after you bump into them, try to grab them by the upper arm, or poke them in the belly. You know *approximately* where they are, but not *exactly* ... especially if they decide to dodge.

 

Now, if you actually grab hold of a target, whether or not you're going to damage them (back to Champions ... don't hurt your friend, of course) depends on just what you're doing. If I have you in a bear hug or full nelson, and I'm squeezing for damage, then whether or not touch is targetting is irrelevant, because there's no To-Hit roll involved.

 

If you're trying to blast me with your eyebeams in the face while we're grappling, you still don't know *exactly* where my head is. I think there's a difference between the Touch sense and Grabbing the target, myself.

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Re: Is bumping into something considered Targeting?

 

I would say that touch is not inherently targetting, myself ... try this experiment. Close your eyes and walk towards someone (willing and aware of what you're doing, preferably). Now, after you bump into them, try to grab them by the upper arm, or poke them in the belly. You know *approximately* where they are, but not *exactly* ... especially if they decide to dodge.

 

Now, if you actually grab hold of a target, whether or not you're going to damage them (back to Champions ... don't hurt your friend, of course) depends on just what you're doing. If I have you in a bear hug or full nelson, and I'm squeezing for damage, then whether or not touch is targetting is irrelevant, because there's no To-Hit roll involved.

 

If you're trying to blast me with your eyebeams in the face while we're grappling, you still don't know *exactly* where my head is. I think there's a difference between the Touch sense and Grabbing the target, myself.

If you're using the Hit Location Chart, sure. But if all you need is a hit to any part of the body, a touch is probably good enough.
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Re: Is bumping into something considered Targeting?

 

isn't this covered under the rules for fighting an invisible opponent in hand to hand range?
Not exactly. Those rules cover fighting someone you can't see at arms length. Hyper-Man is wondering how that might differ from being unable to see the opponent but are still touching.
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