Normal Characteristic Maxima

[Outsider]

I've never been entirely happy with NCM, as written, for Heroic games.

 

Having just a single break point at 20 (the "maximum", though really, it isnt, it is just when the stat starts costing double) doesnt seem to result in enough variation or specializatoin in stats. Especially in relatively high point fantasy.

 

So, I have been thinking about defining base stat ranges as follows :

 

10-15 Common

16-20 Unusual

21-25 Phenomenal

26-30 Legendary

31+ Impossible

 

and either

 

A) Charging double points for any stat pip bought in the 'unusual' level, a quadrupling for any bought to a 'phenomenal' level, and an octupling in the 'legendary' level.

 

Keeping the point costs standard (no surcharge on stats bought up to 20, pips after 20 cost double) but allowing characters to buy a limited number of stats past the 'common' level. Perhaps 2, or maybe more in a high point High Fantasy game.

 

 

Additional thoughts :

 

1) Decouple SPD from DEX, and reduce the cost of DEX to 2 points per pip. 3 SPD becomes 'common' max, 4 SPD 'unusual', 5 SPD 'phenomenal' and 6 SPD 'legendary'. SPD becomes a 'base' stat for A) and options above.

 

2) Figured characteristics in the 151% to 200% range of what they are for a 'base human (all base stats=10) count as 'unusual', 201% to 250% are 'phenomenal' and 251 to 300% are 'legendary' for purposes of buying them up. If option is in use, they do not count against the character's unusual stat limit unless the character actually spends points on the figured stat in addition to what he gets by figuring.

 

3) Decouple movement (run, swim) from SPD by doubling the character's base rate in each, but counting that as per turn movement. Divide the new number by the character's SPD to get his per phase movement. Halving the list point cost per inch of movement for additional movement per turn. If a person wants to run faster, he should be buying Running, not SPD.

 

 

 

Any feedback?

[Vondy]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

All of this is pheasible and workable - and appropos to a more cinematic style of play (in the sense that its not a hard normal characteristic maxima). Thats well and good.

 

I see three things I think you should consider before proceeding, however:

 

1) this will create a more work during character design.

 

2) this will make it difficult - if not impossible - for herodesigner to do the bookkeeping.

 

3) one you get to the tripling or quadrupaling stage several stats will become less than cost effective as a buy. A mathematically inclined player, a min/max guru, or someone who is simply concerned with basic efficiency, won't buy stats to that level at all.

[Outsider]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

1) this will create a more work during character design.

 

A little more work during character design doesnt bother me.

 

 

 

2) this will make it difficult - if not impossible - for herodesigner to do the bookkeeping.

 

I dont use herodesigner anyway. (maybe I should check it out, though)

 

 

3) one you get to the tripling or quadrupaling stage several stats will become less than cost effective as a buy. A mathematically inclined player, a min/max guru, or someone who is simply concerned with basic efficiency, won't buy stats to that level at all.

 

This is something I've thought of. The big advantage of base stats in HERO is that some of them, DEX and STR, especially, give significantly more value in benefits than they cost in points, and so they will -always- be bought up by minimaxers as far as allowed in a heroic game. Strength, even post NCM, is still a winner, benefit vs cost. One will sometimes see DEX or INT bought past the NCM, depending on how the player values the benefits/intangibles, but will rarely see CON, for example, bought up past NCM. By effectively lowering the NCM cap, what I am hoping to do is to encourage the PCs to specialize, picking what particular area they want to be good at, rather than having them spend all their points on generally beneficial base stats.

 

 

DEX (Counting OCV gained as just applying to a single attack (2 point level), rather than as an additional OCV to any attack (8 point level, limited to not allow adding damage as an option (call it 5 points, once limited)). Also Counting DCV gained as only applying vs either melee or ranged (3 point level) rather than applyng to both (5 point level))

1 pip =

+1/3 OCV (0.67 OR 1.67 points, depending on how you value)

+1/3 DCV (1.00 OR 1.67 points, depending on how you value)

+1/5 to all DEX based Skills (1 point)

+0.1 SPD (1 point)

====> (3.67 to 5.33 points of benefit for 3 points spent.

*one also gets the 'intangible' benefit of acting first in a segment, if one so chooses.

 

 

STR (And this is counting the damage benefit of high strength only as if it is STR in excess of the STR min of the character's chosen (melee) weapon. If the STR being bought is still applicable towards meeting the base STR requirement of a weapon the character might choose to use, then it might me more accurate to say that it is worth 2/5 of a DC (2 points))

1 pip =

+1/5 DC (1 to 2 points)

+1/5 REC (2/5 points)

+1/5 PD (1/5 point)

+1/2 Stun (1/2 point)

====> (2.1 to 3.1 points of benefit for 1 point spent)

*One also gets the 'intangible' benefit of increased lift, and reduced encumbrance.

 

 

INT

1 pip =

+1/5 to all INT based skills (1 point)

+1/5 to all Perception Rolls (0.6 points)

====> (1.6 points of benefit for 1 point spent)

*Additionally, one may get the 'intangible' benefit of being able to have more spells prepped for later release (Delayed Effect) if that rule is in use.

 

 

CON

1 pip =

+1/5 REC (0.4 point)

+1/5 ED (0.2 point)

+2 END (1.0 point)

+1/2 STUN (0.5 point)

====> (2.1 points of benefit for 2 points spent)

*Additional benefit : harder to stagger the character.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I don't see why you would need to jump through all those hoops. If you are playing high fantasy game (maybe 250pt characters) simply increase the NCM for PC's and important NPC's to 30. Any increase beyond this should come from magical/mystical sources. This will likely create more variation in the characteristic ranges of your PC's.

[Eosin]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

IMC I don't have a "hard limit" on characteristics but charge double for ability scores above 20 and triple for those above 25. The only way to get higher stats is generally to include some magic (or perhaps be a really strong race). DEX is the only stat which has a hard cap in my games and that is at the "Legolas Level" from the movies which I place in the 28-29 range. So far no known PC or NPC exceeds a 26 DEX though and the character who has a 26 DEX is modeled off of Achellies (Mythologic & Hollywood).

 

I think I need to update my chart now that I think about it.

[sbarron]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

The big advantage of base stats in HERO is that some of them' date=' DEX and STR, especially, give significantly more value in benefits than they cost in points, and so they will -always- be bought up by minimaxers as far as allowed in a heroic game. Strength, even post NCM, is still a winner, benefit vs cost. One will sometimes see DEX or INT bought past the NCM, depending on how the player values the benefits/intangibles, but will rarely see CON, for example, bought up past NCM. By effectively lowering the NCM cap, what I am hoping to do is to encourage the PCs to specialize, picking what particular area they want to be good at, rather than having them spend all their points on generally beneficial base stats.[/quote']

 

I think maybe you should consider a different approach. I agree that players will raise base stats to take advantage of the benefits in doing so. But in my experience, only to a point. After the player has taken advantage of the easy points to be had before NCM, then they will focus in on what they want their character to do or be specialized in. But you have to get to that point, which an unusual high level in high point heroic games.

 

What you would like to see, I think, is for your PCs be unique and specialize in different things. If you give your players enough points, I think this happens. But all the PCs will, as you rightly pointed out, have at least a 20 STR and 20 DEX. Its cost effective to do so. I think that can be ok. The PC who wants to be "fast" will have to go beyond 20, though, because he's not faster than the other PCs unless he does. The strong PC will also have to go past 20 for the same reason. Heck, he may have to go to 30 or higher, but he will do it, because that is his concept. Relative party relationships are what are important here. The specializations will happen in higher point games, but they will happen at a higher level than you're used to. Having PCs that have stats all in 20s is ok so long as everyone is doing it. They are, after all, High Fantasy characters, right? Let them run with it.

 

Given that, I'd recommend raising the cost of STR to 2/1 (because 1/1 is just too damn cheap), and leaving the NCM at 20. Yes, you'll end up with PCs that have several stats at or around 20 (and higher), and that idea may take some time getting used to. But I'd be surprised if the PCs didn't find a way to specialize their characters once they've taken advantage of the pre-NCM cost benefits. Which, in Hero, means spending your points differently than the other guy. That happens at all point totals. It's just going to happen at higher level in high point games.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

These threads always seem to include decoupling DEX and Speed, and reducing DEX to 2 points per. I love that - esppecially if I have a DEX drain, DEX transfer, DEX aid, etc.

 

IOW, changing the base costs of stats changes the efficiency of adjustment powers, something that should be considered in any such modifications.

 

To me, DEX is the only stat with figured char that actually works - -1/2 is precisely the right limit for "DEX no figured".

[Outsider]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

These threads always seem to include decoupling DEX and Speed, and reducing DEX to 2 points per. I love that - esppecially if I have a DEX drain, DEX transfer, DEX aid, etc.

 

IOW, changing the base costs of stats changes the efficiency of adjustment powers, something that should be considered in any such modifications.

 

To me, DEX is the only stat with figured char that actually works - -1/2 is precisely the right limit for "DEX no figured".

 

It probably comes up so much because a lot of people are uncomfortable with having the two tied together in heroic games. Having SPD represent the gross physical fastness of a character works fine in a supers game. Fast characters there actually do do everything, even repetitive/mindless actions, faster. Like projecting a 24 frame/second film at 48 frames/second. In a heroic game, though, it isnt such a good fit. Many people may consider SPD in such a game to represent not so much (or at all) the gross physical fastness a character, but instead how many times in a given period they are able to make decisions about what they are doing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

It probably comes up so much because a lot of people are uncomfortable with having the two tied together in heroic games. Having SPD represent the gross physical fastness of a character works fine in a supers game. Fast characters there actually do do everything' date=' even repetitive/mindless actions, faster. Like projecting a 24 frame/second film at 48 frames/second. In a heroic game, though, it isnt such a good fit. Many people may consider SPD in such a game to represent not so much (or at all) the gross physical fastness a character, but instead how many times in a given period they are able to make decisions about what they are doing.[/quote']

 

I've never seen a character, Heroic or otherwise, who didn't pay the freight to round his SPD up, but I can see where you'd buy that 21'st DEX point for Arnold the Archer and not want him to be at the top end of the Speed chart for the campaign.

 

So buy it as "Dex no figured" and avoid the enhanced effectiveness of adjustment powers on DEX. Same cost, same result, and no ripple effect out to adjustment powers.

[Outsider]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I've never seen a character, Heroic or otherwise, who didn't pay the freight to round his SPD up, but I can see where you'd buy that 21'st DEX point for Arnold the Archer and not want him to be at the top end of the Speed chart for the campaign.

 

So buy it as "Dex no figured" and avoid the enhanced effectiveness of adjustment powers on DEX. Same cost, same result, and no ripple effect out to adjustment powers.

 

 

I usually institute a blanket "No disads on your stats, base, or figured" rule. In my experience, doing otherwise invites many headaches from minimaxers and other sorts of rules exploitation intensive players.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I usually institute a blanket "No disads on your stats' date=' base, or figured" rule. In my experience, doing otherwise invites many headaches from minimaxers and other sorts of rules exploitation intensive players.[/quote']

 

And the wheel comes full circle. If I were trying to exploit your system, I would (as noted previously) use adjustment powers tuned to DEX. At 2 points per, rather than 3, these will be much more effective, with only 2d6 required to change CV by one point per shot. 2d6 Ranged DEX TRansfer sounds like a winner to me.

 

I've yet to see anyone take "no figured" on any stat to min/max. In any case, my approach has always been to avoid blanket prohibitions in favour of targetting specific abuses. That's always done OK for me, but I have a good group of players who aren't looking for ways to beat the system. I'd probably be more prone to blanket bans if I had a lot of players (no time to vet the characters closely), or players more inclined to rules rape.

[Old Man]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I usually institute a blanket "No disads on your stats' date=' base, or figured" rule. In my experience, doing otherwise invites many headaches from minimaxers and other sorts of rules exploitation intensive players.[/quote']

 

If you do not allow Limitations on stats then there are a few builds that cannot be done properly. Well ok, just 2.

 

Mr. Miagi, the old frail looking Okinawan man from Karate Kid. He didn't look impressive at all but wasn't afraid of anything. PRE only vs PRE Attacks (-1)

 

Various animals/characters with loud roars, flashes of light etc. PRE only for making PRE Attacks (-1)

[Old Man]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

NCM is a kludge. The real problem is that almost all of the primary stats are simply too cheap for heroic-level games. STR and DEX are too cheap in superheroic games. Probably the only stats whose cost I would not increase by at least 1 are Ego and Comeliness. STR I would increase to 3/1.

[Old Man]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

3/1 STR is pretty high. If the majority of stats also went up in cost, adjustment powers would be even less effective then they already are. Unless you just roll the dice and that is how many ability points are lost rather than looking at the cost.

[Outsider]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

And the wheel comes full circle. If I were trying to exploit your system, I would (as noted previously) use adjustment powers tuned to DEX. At 2 points per, rather than 3, these will be much more effective, with only 2d6 required to change CV by one point per shot. 2d6 Ranged DEX TRansfer sounds like a winner to me.

 

I've yet to see anyone take "no figured" on any stat to min/max. In any case, my approach has always been to avoid blanket prohibitions in favour of targetting specific abuses. That's always done OK for me, but I have a good group of players who aren't looking for ways to beat the system. I'd probably be more prone to blanket bans if I had a lot of players (no time to vet the characters closely), or players more inclined to rules rape.

 

 

Ah, but adjustment powers in a fantasy hero game are generally only available through the use of magic spells. A 2D6 DEX transfer, usable at range doesnt sound like an unambiguous winner to me.

 

It will have at least 45 active points. (-4 on the campaign rule required Magic Skill Roll)

It will cost 4 END to use.

It will require an attack action (a phase) each time it is used.

The attack action required might miss, especially if the caster relies on the Transfer Spell to get his OCV up to a competitive level.

It will cap out at 12 points of effect (6 DEX, +2 CV to the caster, -2 to the target) and fade at a rate of 5 points/turn (2.5 DEX) unless even more advantages/adders are paid for, pushing the spell (possibly well) above 45 active points.

 

As to people taking No Figured Characteristics, or, more commonly, other power disads on their stats in the interest of minimaxing or otherwise raping the rules, I've seen a fair amount. A few examples :

 

A player tried to buy extra SPD, Not useable for physical actions (-1). Of course, his character concept included psionics...

 

Another player tried to buy extra SPD, only usable for defensive actions (-1), and tried to argue that the NCM price doubling for exceeding 4 SPD didnt apply, since he was buying the extra limited speed as a power.

 

Yet another player wanted to buy DEX, Provides No Figured (-1/2), Provides no DCV (-1/2), Does not help with Dex Based Skills or DEX Rolls (-1/2), Does not help the character act earlier in a phase (-1/4). Effectively, he wanted to buy OCV applicable to all attacks, melee or range, for ~3 points per.

 

Yet another (or maybe the same guy on another occasion... memory blurs, after a while) wanted to buy his DEX with "Takes END to start" (-1/4), figuring (initially) that he could just 'turn on' his DEX first thing in the morning. Informed that such powers 'turn off' as soon as a scene ends, he still figured it was a good deal, since combat starts on phase 12, and he could he could just turn on his +10 DEX (paying 3 END) anf take his phase 12 action (make an attack), then get all the lost END back in the post-12 Recovery that immediately follows, and have 20 DEX for the rest of the fight. If he, personally, was targetted right off the bat, he could abort to turning on his DEX (defensive action, since in ups his DCV)/dodging. All while only having paid 24 points for it instead of the normal 30.

 

 

 

This is what I get for running games at a University based gaming club that allowed anyone who showed up to enter. Many, many of the players I had to deal with were people who could not get into or maintain themselves in a regular invitation-only (home based) group.

[Outsider]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

If you do not allow Limitations on stats then there are a few builds that cannot be done properly. Well ok, just 2.

 

Mr. Miagi, the old frail looking Okinawan man from Karate Kid. He didn't look impressive at all but wasn't afraid of anything. PRE only vs PRE Attacks (-1)

 

Various animals/characters with loud roars, flashes of light etc. PRE only for making PRE Attacks (-1)

 

 

I always figured Mr. Miyagi was using his EGO to resist presence attacks. At 60+, even with NCM, his EGO limit before having to pay double, is 30.

 

As to animals/characters with loud roars and such, their increased ability to make PRE attacks can easily be handled via the PRE attack modifier list on pg 288 of FReD.

 

Lion (in the wild) :

Decent PRE to start with (say, 20, or a 4D6 base PRE attack)

Has an appropriate reputation to support fear based PRE attack (+1 to 2d6)

Exhibiting a power (if visible, those are a LOT of very large teeth!) (+1d6)

Maybe even a soliloqy or setting bonus (+1 to 2d6)

Possibly Suprise (+1d6)

 

All together, a 7 to 10d6 PRE attack, which should be plenty to scare most people. Of course, if the lion is trying it against a big game hunter who is seeing the lion down the sights of some monstrously large caliber hunting rifle, the lion will lose some dice...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

As to people taking No Figured Characteristics, or, more commonly, other power disads on their stats in the interest of minimaxing or otherwise raping the rules, I've seen a fair amount. A few examples :

 

A player tried to buy extra SPD, Not useable for physical actions (-1). Of course, his character concept included psionics...

 

Another player tried to buy extra SPD, only usable for defensive actions (-1), and tried to argue that the NCM price doubling for exceeding 4 SPD didnt apply, since he was buying the extra limited speed as a power.

 

Inoring the "power" argument, both limitations do, indeed, limit what can be done with that SPD. mental only? Can't move, can't take a recovery. How much of your actions are mental - that will determine the extent of the limitation.

 

Technically, the "power" argument is rules-legal. Technically, however, he now needs to justify why he has this unusual power to the satisfaction of "me the GM", and nothing prevents me requiring he pay double points - "That's not MY rule."

 

Yet another player wanted to buy DEX' date=' Provides No Figured (-1/2), Provides no DCV (-1/2), Does not help with Dex Based Skills or DEX Rolls (-1/2), Does not help the character act earlier in a phase (-1/4). Effectively, he wanted to buy OCV applicable to all attacks, melee or range, for ~3 points per.[/quote']

 

"NO". It can be a very useful word. Or just buy the opposition DEX no figured (-1/2), No OCV (-1/2), no skill rolls (-1/2) does not accelerate moves in the phase (-1/4), only vs opponents with unreasonably limited DEX (-2). That makes for very inexpensive DCV while simultaneously eliminating the benefit of the points spent on such a ludicrous concept. Unreasonableness is easily combated with similar unreasonableness, and the opponents can have as much extra xp as I care to donate.

 

Same thing for DEX costs END only to activate (which isn't actually legit, as I believe "costs END only to activate" is presented as an advantage option for body-affecting powers only. Besides, it also shuts off if you're stunned or KO'd (and waking up with - guess what - limited END!). And once aga9in, we get into my "you must explain how it works to my satisfaction, or you don't have the ability" rule.

 

This is what I get for running games at a University based gaming club that allowed anyone who showed up to enter. Many' date=' many of the players I had to deal with were people who could not get into or maintain themselves in a regular invitation-only (home based) group. [/quote']

 

As noted previously, my views might be very different if my players were less mature/competent.

[Outsider]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

"No" is a very useful word, but having to use it constantly wears.

 

I almost, ALMOST got to the point of telling the players to describe their concept to me, and I would write it up. Fortunately, I knew certain of the players would be unhappy with the results, and become 'dissatisfied' with their concept every week if that were the policy, so I never did it.

 

 

 

In any case, the examples of limited characteristics I presented were just the tip of a very large iceberg, and were the ones I recalled off hand. The DEX costs END guy explained it as being rooted in the ability of his mystically trained martial artist character to exert control over his nervous and glandular systems. Kind of a consiously controlled and extreme 'fight or flight' response. (Not a bad idea but not a good write up for that idea. Continuous END expenditure would make more sense, and maybe charges per day (your glands only make so much 'supercharger') AND a long term DEX drain side effect...)

[Titan59]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I have usually found the "will you be happy when your opponents start using this on you/doing this to you?- remember that many of them have more points to spend than you do" argument works well with most minmaxers. It also works well for those players who insist on inappropriate behaviour (such as killing unconscious opponents and looting their focii in superhero games). I have never had a player push this to the point where I actually had to implement the policy. Most minmaxers are smart enough to understand when a thing cuts both ways.

[Old Man]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

3/1 STR is pretty high. If the majority of stats also went up in cost' date=' adjustment powers would be even less effective then they already are. Unless you just roll the dice and that is how many ability points are lost rather than looking at the cost.[/quote']

 

3/1 is high, but this is 5th ed. Fantasy Hero where strength directly determines your DC and your defenses and strongly influences your DCV unless you are a mage (and sometimes even then). Adjustment powers need fixing in 5th ed FH anyway. They're already worthless.

[Outsider]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

"If you do it, They will do it" worked great on my invitational role playing group, but then, they were far more reasonable, and well adjusted (hard to believe, eh, Greg!) than the people I got in the open groups.

[Vondy]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

Well you could always:

 

1) make all primary stats 2-1

2) charge double or more for going over NCM to 30

2) make all skills general skills

 

Then they have to ask: do I want high stats or skills over 11- (67% IIRC)?

[Markdoc]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

A simple solution, which has worked for me is:

 

Double cost of STR - this means that most primary stat.s give you a bit more than 1 for 1 in terms of points spent: I don't really mind that. STR has to change, since it's way out of whack, giving more than 3:1

 

Charge double over NCM (which in my game is 20)

 

Reduce starting points a tad (I favour 100), so you have to give up something if you want lost of 18's in your Stat line, let alone a stat over 20.

 

Enforce a style of play where having skills is important. Sure, a 23 DEX is cool, but it still leaves you with an everyman 8- climbing skill: climbing is about a lot more than DEX. An INT of 23 means an awesomely large brain, but the wit with Conversation 12- is still going to cut you dead at the earl's dinner party. In other words, don't let people make unmodified CHA rolls to cover skills they haven't got.

 

And finally, I don't cap OCV, DCV or DC - but I do allow "powers as skills" (I guess we are supposed to call them Talents now). This means that players have "cool shit" to buy instead of simply spending experience for upping damage and CV - but that focussing on those things is possble if that's your schtick. The trick is you can't have everything. So you can get a duelist type who specialises in one on one weapon combat (very high CV, martial arts, damage bonus), a thug (Combat luck and high CHA) and a "dirty fighter" (backstab, eyegouge and special "not get hurt" powers like the "desolid dodge") all of whom shine under different condistions, and who all diverge from the standard fighter templates.

 

If you encourage your players to develop in different ways they will, without needing any significant changes to the rules.

 

cheers, Mark