Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

[RDU Neil]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Role-playing games have two components, the core and the skin. The core describes how things interact with one another, and the skin brings life and imagination to these things. The differenece between Hero and for example D&D is that Hero's Core is very tight and well oiled, open and ready for any challenging interactions, but doesn't come with much a skin at all. D&D has a very weak core, often with its current designers changing there minds often and have very little consistance. But it comes with a much more intricate skin, full of color and depth. Often in Hero, much of the skin is custom designed by the players and GM, while in D&D the mechanics are often rewritten by the DM and his\her players.

As a general note, the fact that D&D concentrates on a single genre makes this fact even more pronounced. (The skin is easier to define, but often this means that many things are not considered so that the core suffers.)

Personally, I started into D&D and then got into Hero. I still play D&D more, (though mostly because I'm more proficent with it and most of my local players and DM/GMs are resistant to anything not D20,) and think this is because a game with a good skin is easier to draw new players in with. But often times (as in my case,) once the player finds all the problems with the core, they move on to some system with a sturdier core, often with less skin (Though by this time the player is often skilled at making/enhancing his own.) If you want to make the game more well known, you make a strong skin, if you want to make it appeal to many hard core gamers who are willing to do more work, a more robust core is important.

I think sidekick and the genre books are a good move, not removing the core, but making the skin more appealing. (I wish that the major genre books were more able to be played alone from the core book, though the core book should be just that, about the core, like it currently is.)

Have to go to work, I was blambing anyway.

 

Actually, you said what I was trying to say, but in a much more effective way. Thanks.

 

I'm not dissing the the wonderful "core" of the Hero System... what I'm saying is that some more focus on making the "skin" appealing and consistent and approachable to new players could go a long way to broadening the interest in Hero.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

From Killer Shrike:

I prefer workable mechanic books to coffee table books. Gee, pretty picture, but wth does it do?

 

Exact opposite for me. It is exactly the pretty coffee table books of aerial pictures of London, or a descriptive passage of warfare from the memoir of a Vietnam vet, or a bright picture of a powered up superhero taht inspires me. I don't care what the rules say "it does" but what the image or words inspire ME to have them do.

 

Once inspired, I then go to the core rules to help simulate say... that same bright superhero in battle, laying waste to that London neighborhood, and describe the events using the terminology of someone who has witnessed actual warfare.

 

The tools are there to put a framework to inspiration... but those tools don't inspire in and of themselves.

 

Funny, but this discussion is actually a solid example of N vs. S preferences in the Myers-Briggs Type theory. "N" being iNtuitive, in that they see the big picture first, look to "what might be" in a theoretical way that can seem illogical and fanciful to others. "S" preferring "what is" and very detail oriented, systematic, step by step... appearing dull and pedantic to others.

 

Hero, as currently published, is a very "S" product. This is probably what grates on me so much. It has always had a strong degree of these elements, but not to the extent of the current published material.

 

Heh... thanks for the discussion... it has allowed me to understand a bit more of my current dislike of the published material.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

From Killer Shrike:

 

 

Exact opposite for me. It is exactly the pretty coffee table books of aerial pictures of London, or a descriptive passage of warfare from the memoir of a Vietnam vet, or a bright picture of a powered up superhero taht inspires me. I don't care what the rules say "it does" but what the image or words inspire ME to have them do.

 

Once inspired, I then go to the core rules to help simulate say... that same bright superhero in battle, laying waste to that London neighborhood, and describe the events using the terminology of someone who has witnessed actual warfare.

 

The tools are there to put a framework to inspiration... but those tools don't inspire in and of themselves.

 

Funny, but this discussion is actually a solid example of N vs. S preferences in the Myers-Briggs Type theory. "N" being iNtuitive, in that they see the big picture first, look to "what might be" in a theoretical way that can seem illogical and fanciful to others. "S" preferring "what is" and very detail oriented, systematic, step by step... appearing dull and pedantic to others.

 

So you are saying that people that dont fixate on pretty pictures and prefer to pay attention to the practical/actual are dull and pedantic?

 

Apparantly it didnt occur to you that perhaps some folks, like myself, bring what they want the big picture to be to the table, and use the mechanics to bring that into being?

 

Thats a "Visionary" mindset. I dont need the product to tell me what the big picture should be -- I already know what I want it to be. I use the HERO System because I dont first have to strip off the game designers "big picture" skin so that I can reskin it with my own. Instead I just get to work implementing my skin from the word go.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I categorically disagree with this assertion.

It can go either way actually. In a campaign where every PC buys their SPD up to 4 without exception, the one who pays the extra for a SPD of 5 or even 6 doesn't have as much of an advantage for the cost he's paying. But if the PCs regularly have SPDs of 3, with only one or two having a 4, then the one character with a 5 will be a little (maybe a lot) unbalanced for the campaign. since paigeoliver said "3-4" I'll assume her campaigns are of the latter.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

So you are saying that people that dont fixate on pretty pictures and prefer to pay attention to the practical/actual are dull and pedantic?

 

Apparantly it didnt occur to you that perhaps some folks, like myself, bring what they want the big picture to be to the table, and use the mechanics to bring that into being?

 

Thats a "Visionary" mindset. I dont need the product to tell me what the big picture should be -- I already know what I want it to be. I use the HERO System because I dont first have to strip off the game designers "big picture" skin so that I can reskin it with my own. Instead I just get to work implementing my skin from the word go.

 

 

Lighten up. I said they "appear" that way. It is a matter of style and preference and "perception." I'm not saying that it "is" one thing or another, but that different styles will have a "perception" often negative, of other styles. We have very different stylistic preferences, and I think Hero can support both, but is currently only catering to one.

 

We both bring what "we want the big picture to be to the table." It is just where we get out inspiration for the "big picture" is likely very different. Note that I used "illogical and fanciful" to describe the counter preference. I wasn't knocking any one preference over an other.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

We've got the big black book for the mechanics and rules. The supplements should be more than that... and to tell the truth' date=' I can't stand 'em. Dense text, mind numbing detail, very little flavor... [/quote']

Have you seen the various genre and setting books? They virtually all "skin" and no mechanics. I just finished the Millennium City sourcebook for Champions and there aren't any rules in it. Just detailed descriptions of a campaign city and the places there, and a few character sheets for some notable residents. Sounds like books such as these are what you are looking for.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Have you seen the various genre and setting books? They virtually all "skin" and no mechanics. I just finished the Millennium City sourcebook for Champions and there aren't any rules in it. Just detailed descriptions of a campaign city and the places there' date=' and a few character sheets for some notable residents. Sounds like books such as these are what you are looking for.[/quote']Exactly, and thats what Im saying. The HERO System currently is keeping the flavor/skinning where it belongs -- in the setting books.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Lighten up. I said they "appear" that way. It is a matter of style and preference and "perception." I'm not saying that it "is" one thing or another, but that different styles will have a "perception" often negative, of other styles. We have very different stylistic preferences, and I think Hero can support both, but is currently only catering to one.

 

We both bring what "we want the big picture to be to the table." It is just where we get out inspiration for the "big picture" is likely very different. Note that I used "illogical and fanciful" to describe the counter preference. I wasn't knocking any one preference over an other.

It clearly is a matter of preference.

 

Where I am coming from is this: I dont go to a steak place and order fried chicken. When I want a good steak I go to a place that is known for it's steak and when I want fried chicken I go to a fried chicken place, if you follow my meaning.

 

Similarly, when I want a flavorful everything-has-been-done-for-you game, then I go find a game that is known for beign good for that and play it rather than griping that my good-for-making-your-own-stuff game isnt more of a everything-has-been-done-for-you game.

 

As far as lightening up, I consider the statement you made to be mildly insulting. I dont think that was your intent since you seem to be a well spoken and rational person, but nevertheless it came across to me as being a loaded statement.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

It can go either way actually. In a campaign where every PC buys their SPD up to 4 without exception' date=' the one who pays the extra for a SPD of 5 or even 6 doesn't have as much of an advantage for the cost he's paying. But if the PCs regularly have SPDs of 3, with only one or two having a 4, then the one character with a 5 will be a little (maybe a lot) unbalanced for the campaign. since paigeoliver said "3-4" I'll assume her campaigns are of the latter.[/quote']

And I still disagree. Consider that a person with a 5 SPD in an NCM game where most characters have a 3 SPD has paid 30 points more for SPD than his comrades.

 

Conversely this means that his comrades have spent 30 more points on being able to do other things. Also, in the HERO System it's much more likely that they actually arived at at least some of that extra SPD via buying their DEX up and thus they've actually invested more than 30 points into being "quick guy", but that has other secondary benefits to offset the cost so we'll pretend they kept their DEX at 10 and all the points of SPD were bought directly.

 

It's not much good to be able to take a lot of actions if the individual actions you take arent effective. The high SPD characters actions are going to be some portion of 30 points less effective than the actions of their comrades. Ive seen this syndrome several times, where a player dumps a lot of points into being fast/high speed and then ends up wasting many of their actions on misses because their CV isnt up to snuff, or dodging/diving for cover because their defenses are sub par, or taking Recoveries because they are burning too much END, or twiddling their thumbs when skills are needed because they skimped in that area, or suffering some ancillary downside because their other statistics are poor, like having a glass jaw due to low CON and/or STUN, or being stymied even in combat by other characters that can withstand their attacks via DCV, DEF, Block, or some other means because they have no other options.

 

The downsides of spending that many points for extra actions generally in my experience balance out.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Did you ever build an X-Wing out of Legos? I'm not talking about making one from parts that came out of a box with Star Wars logos on it; I'm talking about making one out of the normal pieces I've described above, like out of one of the larger deluxe sets. did it look like it did in the movies? Hell, no. Could you play with like was? Abosutely!

Heh. I was talking on the phone with my mother recently, and she told me that my sister's daughters (4 of 'em, ages 10 through 6) found my old Legos during their last trip to Grandma and Grampa's. I had left a van and motorcyle put together like you described putting the X-wing together. Apparently, they were amazed that you could put generic pieces together with no plan and make things like that!

 

Try to find the generic Lego sets today. They're all specialty X-wing type kits. Feh!

 

[/Grumpy old SCUBA Hero]

[Dust Raven]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Conversely this means that his comrades have spent 30 more points on being able to do other things. Also, in the HERO System it's much more likely that they actually arived at at least some of that extra SPD via buying their DEX up and thus they've actually invested more than 30 points into being "quick guy", but that has other secondary benefits to offset the cost so we'll pretend they kept their DEX at 10 and all the points of SPD were bought directly.

 

It's not much good to be able to take a lot of actions if the individual actions you take arent effective. The high SPD characters actions are going to be some portion of 30 points less effective than the actions of their comrades. Ive seen this syndrome several times, where a player dumps a lot of points into being fast/high speed and then ends up wasting many of their actions on misses because their CV isnt up to snuff, or dodging/diving for cover because their defenses are sub par, or taking Recoveries because they are burning too much END, or twiddling their thumbs when skills are needed because they skimped in that area, or suffering some ancillary downside because their other statistics are poor, like having a glass jaw due to low CON and/or STUN, or being stymied even in combat by other characters that can withstand their attacks via DCV, DEF, Block, or some other means because they have no other options.

 

The downsides of spending that many points for extra actions generally in my experience balance out.

And you don't this is is unbalanced? It's virtually capsized!

 

[Dust Raven]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Here we go...

 

The Hero System is like being married. No really. All the elements are there to make it exactly what you want it to be, but you spend quite a bit of time fussing and fighting and aruing over exactly what that is.

 

[/tongue in cheek]

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

And you don't this is is unbalanced? It's virtually capsized!

 

Balance is acheived in many different ways.

 

Say rather that the character in question is specialized, with all the intrinsic pros and cons thereof.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Balance is acheived in many different ways.

 

Say rather that the character in question is specialized, with all the intrinsic pros and cons thereof.

A matter of semantics then. You say balanced but [over]specialized. I say unbalanced. Would we both agree then that the character would be unplayable un such a campaign?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

A matter of semantics then. You say balanced but [over]specialized. I say unbalanced. Would we both agree then that the character would be unplayable un such a campaign?

Nope.

 

And remove that "over" you snuck in there. I said no such thing as "overspecialized".

 

 

On the plus side, the character can take a lot of actions. It generally works out when taken as a whole.

[Eosin]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I like the lego analogy...

 

I can also undrestand RDU's concerns. Hero does get outclassed in the glam category which is important for sales (which is important for having the game continue) but it is in a field by itself for content.

 

An observation of mine relating to Hero (subjective) - many Hero players buy products from multiple lines (d20, Storyteller, GURPS, etc) but often the inverse does not appear to be true to me. That is, a Werewolf player/GM is unlikely to have any Hero or even d20 books sitting around. I know that I buy such things looking for a "cool skin" or at least something that I can mine for ideas, illustrations, maps, and setting stuff. When I played d20 exclusively (for maybe a year before 5E came out), I did not buy outside of the d20 pool.

 

Anybody else notice similar observations?

 

PS - I do not notice this with all Hero Genres. Superheroes they seem to have covered well and I rarely look outside of the Hero stable but for Fantasy even if the guts are all Hero, most of my purchases are of non-Hero products.

 

[Dust Raven]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I like the lego analogy...

Thanks.

Anybody else notice similar observations?

Most of the people I know play Hero, even if only occasionally, and naturally have Hero products. There's a few I know that almost always play other games, such as D&D but have a few Champions books. One of my best friends is like that. She's almost completely immersed in D&D (1st edition with only a few conventions of 2nd added in), but own a number of (addmittedly equally antiquated) Champions stuff.

 

As I said though, most of the people I know play Hero, but what else did you expect?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I would come at it from the other direction and say that players/GMs that have an interest in taking ideas from other game systems to tailor something else or make their own setting are more likely to gravitate to a Game System like HEROs that plays to that inclination, whereas those that are content to just take whatever is published for their system are more likely to be content to remain with that system.