No Frameworks?

[Zephrosyne]

I am thinking about starting a Hero System game after my d20 Modern game runs its course. The last time I ran a Hero System game it was fourth edition and some time ago. This will be a superhero game in terms of the power level except that everything will be supernatural/mystical. I don't really like frameworks and I was wondering if anyone has every ran a game at that level without using frameworks? If so, how did it work out? Are there any potential balance issues to look for since I may not be using frameworks?

[SleepyDrug]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

I am thinking about starting a Hero System game after my d20 Modern game runs its course. The last time I ran a Hero System game it was fourth edition and some time ago. This will be a superhero game in terms of the power level except that everything will be supernatural/mystical. I don't really like frameworks and I was wondering if anyone has every ran a game at that level without using frameworks? If so' date=' how did it work out? Are there any potential balance issues to look for since I may not be using frameworks?[/quote']

 

No, because I feel it severely limits the power levels of the game. There is nothing broken or wrong with frameworks. They do need to be monitored like any other aspect of the character.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

I would heavily consider whether I wanted to play in a HERO System game that allowed Powers but not Power Frameworks. It cuts off a broad swathe of otherwise easily modeled effects in a single stroke.

 

 

Power Frameworks are good; they just require GM monitoring like every other feature of the HERO System.

[Vondy]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

I think you'd be hobbling your players unduly. There are a number of perfectly valid designs that are best accomplished with a power framework - and some designs that fit within the games power levels might only be accomplished with a power framework. Most constructs in hero can be abusive if not properly monitored. That's the nature of the point driven beast. Futher, some of the more abusive constructs have been dubbed "only with GM permission" in the text of the rules in order to make monitoring them and saying no easier. I wouldn't say "no" right off the bat. I'd say "subject to careful GM scrutiny and approval." I, personally, would think really hard before I agreed to play in such a game because I would know - from the get go - that the number of viable character concepts I could play had been pared down significantly before I even asked or made a proposal.

[Edsel]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

I'll echo the general sentiment so far that power frameworks are generally a good thing. I don't think that I've ever built a superhero character that lacked one. You could, perhaps, disallow Variable Power Pools since they are the most prone to abuse. But a game that lacked Elemental Controls and Multipowers is almost unthinkable to me.

[Gary]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

If frameworks are disallowed, you would probably want to reprice characteristics in a Superheroic campaign. Probably by eliminating or reducing figured characteristics.

 

Str, Dex, and Con are already hyperefficient. By disallowing frameworks, they become even more so relative to powers.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

Eliminating frameworks discourages coherent character design and, as Gary noted, makes Characteristics an exceptional value compared to Powers.

 

Generally a poor idea, IMHO.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

I am thinking about starting a Hero System game after my d20 Modern game runs its course. The last time I ran a Hero System game it was fourth edition and some time ago. This will be a superhero game in terms of the power level except that everything will be supernatural/mystical. I don't really like frameworks and I was wondering if anyone has every ran a game at that level without using frameworks? If so' date=' how did it work out? Are there any potential balance issues to look for since I may not be using frameworks?[/quote']

 

Running a Normal or Heroic Level game without using power frameworks works fine. Consider having PSI/magic powers running independent in the campaign's background. Depending on the campaign's flavor, characters can access these powers buy buying talents, skills and or a combination of both.

 

 

.

[RDU Neil]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

Like it or not, Power Frameworks are actually necessary to the balance of the game. An extreme re-write of Hero that repriced some characteristics, and got rid of figured characteristics... that might allow the game to function sans frameworks... but not as it is written right now.

 

Just be sure, since you are still harkening back to 4th Edition, that you read up on the 5th Ed changes. Make sure you hold to the rules that disallow certain powers inside frameworks. Really scrutinize and be ready to say "no" to anyone trying to put characteristics into a framework.

 

IMO, Multi-powers are essentially fine. Very little worry that they will be broken, and quite useful for making a selection of "spells" in a mystic supers game.

 

Elemental Controls are min-maxer heaven... but probably not broken per se. Be more careful here, but understand that some power configurations are just too expensive without an EC point break. I'm a real stickler for the "no powers that cost zero END in an EC" framework. That keeps folks from the "I have every Enhanced Sense in the book really cheaply" kind of thing.

 

VPP... funny but these are more annoying to me than broken. These are good if you have players who are comfortable playing loose with Active Points, and can do that easily. Where it breaks down is players spending tons of time flipping through the book trying to figure out the most cost efficient power that can be whipped up to cream the bad guy. If you have a lot of "rule players" be prepared for head aches. If you have "role players" who just enjoy the flexibility and flash a VPP can add to play, you are likely all right. Since you always have to pay the full cost of the pool, it is priced high enough not to be easily abused.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

I would heavily consider whether I wanted to play in a HERO System game that allowed Powers but not Power Frameworks. It cuts off a broad swathe of otherwise easily modeled effects in a single stroke.

 

That's too bad because you are missing out. When Scott Bennie was play-testing his VIPER book, he allowed our 150 point VIPER agents with only 40 points of powers using no frameworks and we all had loads of fun.

 

 

 

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[DrFurious]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

Eliminating frameworks discourages coherent character design

 

Are you referring to character concept or character implementation? Point efficiency aside, I don't see why you can't just label a group of powers and still have a coherent design.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

If frameworks are disallowed, you would probably want to reprice characteristics in a Superheroic campaign. Probably by eliminating or reducing figured characteristics.

 

Str, Dex, and Con are already hyperefficient. By disallowing frameworks, they become even more so relative to powers.

 

 

Eliminating frameworks discourages coherent character design and, as Gary noted, makes Characteristics an exceptional value compared to Powers.

 

Generally a poor idea, IMHO.

 

 

Not True. I have played in a number of Danger International campaigns some with powers and some without. Characteristics do not need to be repriced and character design was clear. A Hero campaign works fine without power frameworks. You guys need to get out more.

 

 

.

[Kristopher]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

That's too bad because you are missing out. When Scott Bennie was play-testing his VIPER book, he allowed our 150 point VIPER agents with only 40 points of powers using no frameworks and we all had loads of fun.

 

I have played in a number of Danger International campaigns some with powers and some without. Characteristics do not need to be repriced and character design was clear. A Hero campaign works fine without power frameworks. You guys need to get out more.

 

Just so that there's no confusion, I think the original question specifically stated that the poster was thinking about a superheroic-level game.

 

What point/power level was the DI campaign you're citing run at?

[Kristopher]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

If frameworks are disallowed, you would probably want to reprice characteristics in a Superheroic campaign. Probably by eliminating or reducing figured characteristics.

 

Str, Dex, and Con are already hyperefficient. By disallowing frameworks, they become even more so relative to powers.

 

Yeah, but you always want to mess with the Characteristics costs.

[JMHammer]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

The only Power Framework that I find to be an ocassional issue during character creation is Elemental Control. Except for some minor interaction with Adjustment Powers (and, by a strict reading, Multiple-Power Attacks), all Elemental Control amounts to is a discount on the expense of building a set of powers; it has no significant effect during play. Therefore, nearly every player who is trying to game the system tries to use an Elemental Control regardless of its appropriateness for the character.

 

When I adapt characters or create my own, I usually don't use Elemental Controls. I allow players to use them, and often even allow zero-endurance and special powers to be placed in them, but there has to be a good reason for an Elemental Control - the player can't just be looking for a way to get free points.

 

Take the character Witchcraft from the 5th Edition Champions. She has both a Multipower and an Elemental Control. (She also has a Variable Power Pool, but let's ignore that for now.) The Multipower seems to provide her with the ability to meet her special effect: A number of powerful spells which can only be used one at a time. The Elemental Control consists of two powers, a Force Field and a Flight. This does nothing in-game except for a minor limitation of being affected together by negative Adjustment Powers but gives her a pretty significant cost break on the purchase of those two powers. This is an example of an Elemental Control which I probably wouldn't allow in my games.

 

As a counter-example, let's suppose a character called Fire Guy like The Human Torch from Marvel Comics. He flies because of his flaming body, he has a force field because of his flaming body, he has a damage shield because of his flaming body, and he can gather up some of the flames on his body and toss them a short distance (Energy Blast with Range Based on Strength). Maybe he even has a Change Environment that allows him to make things hotter in his immediate area. All that would be a fine collection of powers for an Elemental Control because all the slots are defined as a different application of the same power (lower-case "p"): Flaming Body.

 

Best wishes,

John H

[Vondy]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

That's too bad because you are missing out. When Scott Bennie was play-testing his VIPER book, he allowed our 150 point VIPER agents with only 40 points of powers using no frameworks and we all had loads of fun.

.

 

Not True. I have played in a number of Danger International campaigns some with powers and some without. Characteristics do not need to be repriced and character design was clear. A Hero campaign works fine without power frameworks. You guys need to get out more.

 

That's a different scale and style of play than what most people are talking about. I'd have no problem with playing in that sort of game, or a dark champtions game with no or limited power-frameworks, but a full-on superpower game without power-frameworks would raise my eyebrow at the very least.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

Are you referring to character concept or character implementation? Point efficiency aside' date=' I don't see why you can't just label a group of powers and still have a coherent design.[/quote']

 

I refer to both. Assuming the GM does his/her job and makes sure that Power Framworks are conceptually sound - i.e., based around some coherent concept - they reward people for thinking logically about a set of powers that go well together. If you don't have a means of rewarding such coherency, you risk people simply designing characters around whatever is most efficient, rather than what makes sense. More often than not, you're going to see a lot of Armor + KA or NND combos.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

Not True. I have played in a number of Danger International campaigns some with powers and some without. Characteristics do not need to be repriced and character design was clear. A Hero campaign works fine without power frameworks. You guys need to get out more.

 

You need to learn to read better. The initial post referred to a superhero campaign, and dropping Frameworks is problematic in a superhero game. If you do a DI game or a Heroic-level Ninja Hero game or a Western Hero game or something like that, the parameters change quite a bit. In fact, frameworks are often disallowed or greatly restricted in Fantasy Hero games because they can be *too* efficient in that setting.

[Gary]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

Yeah' date=' but you [i']always[/i] want to mess with the Characteristics costs.

 

 

That's because Str and Dex gives you too much bang for the buck IMO. The problem would be far worse if frameworks were removed unless the characteristics were repriced or restructured.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

First of all, I would like to thank all of you for your responses. They are much appreciated. RDU, I did read the 5th Edition book--twice to be exact. Believe me, I would not come to this board and ask questions without having done that. Gary, I made the same observation that you did as far as the efficiency of the Characteristics: Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution. I also looked at examples of "Bricks" in the sourcebook Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks. Durak, Black Diamond, Cateran, Gargantua, Grond, Monster and Morningstar were all built without frameworks but still compare favorably to characters of the same power level (in terms of point cost) who were built with frameworks. I suspect the same would be the case with "Martial Artists" who are probably about as less likely to use frameworks as "Bricks." So I can only conclude that frameworks are more or less essential to this level of play. Frameworks are probably required to maintain balance moreso than being an impediment to it, especially when the efficiency of physical Characteristics are taken into consideration. I have no choice but to reconsider my position. I should just probably watch each case carefully. Thank you.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

In our game, we frequently don't use many of the Frameworks.

 

ECs are usually thrown out or extremely limited. Two or three powers can be lumped together but not more than three. There's a requirement that it must be fairly easy to spot the "element", Fire or Demonic or Giantic, but not Humanoid Alien Powers. In a game where everything is Magic, however, ECs might become less useful.

 

Variable Power Pools are usually thrown out, they are too much work and rarely useful. The only exception was a Green Lantern ripoff VPP and it was fairly easy to rule "No, it doesn't work like that, we've all read the comic books". Included in the writeup was the Ring as a Computer and the Emergency Defenses that are never shifted away (and not part of the VPP).

 

Multipowers are fairly common however. Characters can get fairly boring without the ability to try some different power (or using the same power differently) than the power they are using. You can get around this with Variable Advantage and Variable Special Effects.

 

Fantasy Hero has an interesting framework of its own, three for one, which allows three times the amount of active points if spent on spells. This might be a workable comprimise to using Multipowers.

[DrFurious]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

I refer to both. Assuming the GM does his/her job and makes sure that Power Framworks are conceptually sound - i.e.' date=' based around some coherent concept - they reward people for thinking logically about a set of powers that go well together. If you don't have a means of rewarding such coherency, you risk people simply designing characters around whatever is most efficient, rather than what makes sense. More often than not, you're going to see a lot of Armor + KA or NND combos.[/quote']

 

Realistically, there is nothing about a framework that enforces a coherent concept. For example, you can have a disparate range of powers in a multipower and it is perfectly legal. The enforcement of concept occurs when the GM speaks up. You shouldn't need to reward a sound concept - the player should already be rewarded by playing a coherent character. A point-mongering player will always go for point-efficiency whether you reward him or not. A concept-devoted player won't really care too much about the point rewards. It is not the job of the system to enforce concept - that's the GMs job.

[Kristopher]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

And what about a player who considers both character concept and efficiency of points to be quite important?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

Realistically' date=' there is nothing about a framework that enforces a coherent concept. For example, you can have a disparate range of powers in a multipower and it is perfectly legal. The enforcement of concept occurs when the GM speaks up. You shouldn't need to reward a sound concept - the player should already be rewarded by playing a coherent character. A point-mongering player will always go for point-efficiency whether you reward him or not. A concept-devoted player won't really care too much about the point rewards. It is not the job of the system to enforce concept - that's the GMs job.[/quote']

 

 

By their nature, ECs powers must be linked by a common special effect - i.e., a coherent concept. This is true of most VPPs as well - the most common Limitations on VPPs refer to special effects, or to shared game mechanics (i.e., a gadget pool) which innately force the Powers to have something in common. The biggest exception is a true Cosmic VPP with the +2 Cosmic Advantage and no Limitations, but even this reflects a certain effect - the cosmic/able to do anything character.

 

This is not inherently true (i.e., not stated overtly in the rules) about Multipowers, but most GMs - myself included - will only okay a MP if the MP has some sensible, shared concept - Armored Suit Weapons System, or Magic Spells, or Optic Blast Powers, or whatever. Characters in the books almost always have a core concept behind their MPs other than "point efficiency."

[DrFurious]

Re: No Frameworks?

 

And what about a player who considers both character concept and efficiency of points to be quite important?

No man can serve two masters